carbon dioxide Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 In the daily articles the Salt Lake Tribune puts out, there is this new one that says the former popular book by Spencer W. Kimball is dying from regular use by members. The numbers of published copies is decreasing rapidly, ect. http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/2762815-155/lds-classic-miracle-of-forgiveness-fading What is replacing it if there is one? I think the book gets a bad rap. The title really does not fit with the contents. I would have named it "How to repent." or something like that but I did not find it to be a horrible book.
The Nehor Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 In his position as apostle and a leader in the church President Kimball dealt with a lot of "hard cases" and saw a rising tide of immorality and a trivializing of sin. Brigham Young said: "You may, figuratively speaking, pound one Elder over the head with a club, and he does not know but what you have handed him a straw dipped in molasses to suck. There are others, if you speak a word to them, or take a straw and chasten them, whose hearts are broken; they are as tender in their feelings as an infant, and will melt like wax before the flame. You must not chasten them severely; you must chasten according to the spirit that is in the person. Some you may talk to all day long, and they do not know what you are talking about. There is a great variety. Treat people as they are." I think the book was intended for the people you can talk to all day long and they still do not get it so President Kimball was harsh. To the tender and those more prone to self-incrimination the book sometimes comes across as unduly harsh. I am not that worried if it fades away. Other books will replace it and the scriptures are better in any case. 3
Kenngo1969 Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 (edited) It's worth noting that whatever happens to Miracle of Forgiveness, excerpts from it comprise an entire chapter of current curriculum (perhaps the key word there is excerpts). We still have those kernels, no matter who considers the rest of it chaff. It's been ages since I read the book, but I also think part of the problem may be that people read the first half, which is basically Hellfire and Damnation! then skip the second half, which is all Mercy, Atonement, and Redemption. My $0.02. Edited July 24, 2015 by Kenngo1969 1
Freedom Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 It is an old book. All old books go out of publication eventually. What the article could address is how this book compares to other books published around the same time by church leaders in terms of sales. 2
Broker Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 A lot of it found another home in the "Teachings of the Presidents of the Church" series.
Joshua Valentine Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 "Many of you would be familiar with President Spencer Kimball's wonderful work on the miracle of forgiveness." Richard L. Evans, One Small Step, April 1970 - http://scriptures.byu.edu/gettalk.php?ID=1746 And "If you are not familiar with the classic steps to repentance, such as confession and abandonment of sin, restitution, obedience, and seeking forgiveness, talk to a bishop or study a source such as President Spencer W. Kimball’s masterly work The Miracle of Forgiveness." Richard G. Scott, Peace of Conscience, Peace of Mind, October 2004 - https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2004/10/peace-of-conscience-and-peace-of-mind?lang=eng If sales are down, then people may not have been heeding General Conference talks.
Bernard Gui Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 (edited) It's worth noting that whatever happens to Miracle of Forgiveness, excerpts from it comprise an entire chapter of current curriculum (perhaps the key word there is excerpts). We still have those kernels, no matter who considers the rest of it chaff. It's been ages since I read the book, but I also think part of the problem may be that people read the first half, which is basically Hellfire and Damnation! then skip the second half, which is all Mercy, Atonement, and Redemption.My $0.02.Your 2 cents is pure gold. It was forthright, pulled no punches, and exposed the seriousness of sin. Many people gave up after reading the first part, because they were conviced there was no hope for them. The miracle was in the second part. Those who persevered were rewarded with an increase of faith, hope, charity, and a clear understanding of repentance and forgiveness. It is not light reading. Edited July 24, 2015 by Bernard Gui 1
Boanerges Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 It's worth noting that whatever happens to Miracle of Forgiveness, excerpts from it comprise an entire chapter of current curriculum (perhaps the key word there is excerpts). We still have those kernels, no matter who considers the rest of it chaff. It's been ages since I read the book, but I also think part of the problem may be that people read the first half, which is basically Hellfire and Damnation! then skip the second half, which is all Mercy, Atonement, and Redemption. My $0.02.I wouldn't go as far as second half, maybe last two chapters. I have always abhorred the book (although I loved Pres. Kimball). His conference talks were nothing like the book. The book is going away because it's not selling - and has been noted that happens to most books eventually. This particular book also has some outdated ideas as the article points out. Millennials are pretty clued in and they are the rising leaders in the church - finding more current information is important and beneficial to them. I'm not sad to see it go, just like Mormon Doctrine. And we don't really expect the Teachings of the Presidents series to hang around forever do we? I am interested to see what happens in a couple years, we are running out of dead presidents after all. Are we going to start over or get a new curriculum? (My vote is for a new curriculum more focused on Christ and the gospel.) I will remind you that before Teachings of the Presidents there was a curriculum for PH/RS and also that the adult curriculum is currently undergoing a major revamping. 1
strappinglad Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 When the D&C and Alma say that " the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance " , we must read that and respond with a heavy degree of nuance. Otherwise we will be unable to accept that the Lord will beat us with a few stripes and then allow us into heaven. In the Old testament God was heavy on Justice and almost invisible on Mercy. In the New Testament Christ reversed that... or did He?
KevinG Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 Miracle of Forgiveness is a bit dated in its context and examples. My daughter came to me after reading it, and expressed some concerns. I immediately prepared to discuss the "death vs. rape" statements but she stopped me and said that wasn't what bothered her. It turns out she was more confused by some of the language that was bound up in the response to the 60s and 70s counterculture movement. Like any literature, even the scriptures, it can be dated and require updating for modern language and cultural contexts.
Popular Post cinepro Posted July 24, 2015 Popular Post Posted July 24, 2015 (edited) In the daily articles the Salt Lake Tribune puts out, there is this new one that says the former popular book by Spencer W. Kimball is dying from regular use by members. The numbers of published copies is decreasing rapidly, ect. http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/2762815-155/lds-classic-miracle-of-forgiveness-fading What is replacing it if there is one? I think the book gets a bad rap. The title really does not fit with the contents. I would have named it "How to repent." or something like that but I did not find it to be a horrible book. President Kimball grew up in rural Arizona, and then moved to Utah in the mid-19th century. His views on a variety of moral issues may have been informed by inspiration and an inspired reading of the scriptures, but they also appear to have been strongly influenced by the culture of his upbringing. Especially his views on homosexuality. There is obviously much that is good and worthy in "The Miracle of Forgiveness", but unless the Church is going to go through and edit out the parts that are, shall we say "dated", it's probably best that the book fade away from current LDS thinking. Edit: Looks like KevinG and I posted about the same time. To add to what he said, any book that is meant to be read by teenagers and uses the word "petting" should be considered ancient history. Edited July 24, 2015 by cinepro 5
KevinG Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 When the D&C and Alma say that " the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance " , we must read that and respond with a heavy degree of nuance. Otherwise we will be unable to accept that the Lord will beat us with a few stripes and then allow us into heaven. In the Old testament God was heavy on Justice and almost invisible on Mercy. In the New Testament Christ reversed that... or did He? We cannot excuse ourselves, but the Lord can atone for our sins. Sometimes I see written scripture and literature as a response to a certain concern. I think church leaders emphasize obedience to a great degree because it is an issue for the Saints, not that it is more important than grace. Without the full spectrum of the Gospel, focusing on one book, one chapter, one lesson can give a skewed impression of what is important. Like smoking cigarettes being like unto murder for some Saints.
KevinG Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 To add to what he said, any book that is meant to be read by teenagers and uses the word "petting" should be considered ancient history. I bow to your eloquence!
cinepro Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 (edited) For those who are unfamiliar with the book, the text is available here: The Miracle of Forgiveness I think this is one of the teachings which the Church is moving away from: Curable and Forgivable--With Effort After consideration of the evil aspects, the ugliness and prevalence of the evil of homosexuality, the glorious thing to remember is that it is curable and forgivable. The Lord has promised that all sins can be forgiven except certain ones enumerated, and this evil was not among those named. Thus it is forgivable if totally abandoned and if the repentance is sincere and absolute. Certainly it can be overcome, for there are numerous happy people who were once involved in its clutches and who have since completely transformed their lives. Therefore to those who say that this practice or any other evil is incurable, I respond: "How can you say the door cannot be opened until your knuckles are bloody, till your head is bruised, till your muscles are sore? It can be done." Of course it is not to be had merely for the asking. It involves mastering self. Plato had a word to say on this: "The first and greatest victory is to conquer yourself; to be conquered by yourself is of all things most shameful and vile." Our ills are usually of our own begetting. They must be corrected by ourselves. Man is the master of his destiny, be it good or bad. Man has the inherent capacity to heal himself physically. A doctor may cleanse a wound, sew it up, bandage it well, but the natural power of the body must do the healing. Likewise, a healing process in the spirit and mind must come from within from self-will. Others may help to cauterize the wound, suture it, and provide a clean, proper environment for the healing, but the body, with the aid of the Spirit, must heal itself. Accordingly some totally conquer homosexuality in a few months, others linger on with less power and require more time to make the total comeback. The cure is as permanent as the individual makes it and, like the cure for alcoholism, is subject to continued vigilance. ---------------------------------------------- Many have been misinformed that they are powerless in the matter, not responsible for the tendency, and that "God made them that way." This is as untrue as any other of the diabolical lies Satan has concocted. It is blasphemy. Man is made in the image of God. Does the pervert think God to be "that way"? ---------------------------------------------- Some say that marriage has failed. And while the number of divorces causes us to fear and admit it partly to be true, the principle of marriage is right. Some have changed their desires and yearnings and have convinced themselves that they are different and have no desire toward the opposite sex. This is quite understandable if the person has permitted himself to move in the other direction and has lavished his interests, desires, affections, and passions upon one of his own sex for long enough. It becomes ingrown. But let this individual repent of his perversion, force himself to return to normal pursuits and interests and actions and friendships with the opposite sex, and this normal pattern can become natural again. Edited July 24, 2015 by cinepro 1
Duncan Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 I can honestly say that the MOF was not a good thing for me to read, but when I read it in 1990 there wasn't much else. It poisoned me truth be told. I think Robinson's Believing Christ would have have been a much better read for me then but I didn't have access to a copy. I love Pres. Kimball and all but I wish I hadn't read the book 3
Sky Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 This book has caused a lot of grief for many members through the years - non-heterosexual or otherwise. And some of it, though not all, seems out of step with current Church teachings. I have been concerned that the book promotes self-loathing as well as an unobtainable standard. So for me, it begs the question of whether or not the leaders of the Church can ever be wrong. And if they are wrong, how will they be held accountable? Does the Church expect this to quietly fade away into the sunset in this day and age, but never actually openly discuss it? I'm grateful for the the many great things that President Kimball did. His influence on the Church has stretched through generations. But as far as this part of his legacy, I still have some serious reservations if it was an entirely good thing. 3
Avatar4321 Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 I've read the miracle of forgiveness multiple times. I've never found it to be problematic in the slightest. The atonement is a miracle. We do need to repent of our sins. And the Lord has provided us with the means to be forgiven.The Lord can change our very nature. This is our faith we can sin and make mistakes but the Lord can help us overcome them. 1
Duncan Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 I've read the miracle of forgiveness multiple times. I've never found it to be problematic in the slightest. The atonement is a miracle. We do need to repent of our sins. And the Lord has provided us with the means to be forgiven.The Lord can change our very nature. This is our faith we can sin and make mistakes but the Lord can help us overcome them. is it possible to overcome our natures in this life? or is it possible to overcome temptations and we'll learn and grow and hopefully overcome our nature in the next life? I have no idea!
cinepro Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 I've read the miracle of forgiveness multiple times. I've never found it to be problematic in the slightest. The atonement is a miracle. We do need to repent of our sins. And the Lord has provided us with the means to be forgiven. The Lord can change our very nature. This is our faith we can sin and make mistakes but the Lord can help us overcome them. You may represent an old-school view that still supports the claims made in my post above regarding the nature and likelihood of homosexuality. That's fine; I suspect there will always be such thinking in the Church (and elsewhere). The point of this thread is that the book may be going out of print and being de-emphasized, and it's possible it's being done because those claims are no longer supported by current Church leadership, and they recognize the effect such ideas can have on faithful LDS teenagers and adults who struggle with homosexuality. 3
NEDRA Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 President Kimball grew up in rural Arizona, and then moved to Utah in the mid-19th century. ---He wasn't that old! He died in the late 20th century!
Rivers Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 My biggest problem with MOF is the way in which parable of the prodigal son is discussed. I found it so ironic that the most powerful story of forgiveness in scripture gets totally butchered in a book titled The Miracle of Forgiveness. 3
Avatar4321 Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 You may represent an old-school view that still supports the claims made in my post above regarding the nature and likelihood of homosexuality. That's fine; I suspect there will always be such thinking in the Church (and elsewhere).The point of this thread is that the book may be going out of print and being de-emphasized, and it's possible it's being done because those claims are no longer supported by current Church leadership, and they recognize the effect such ideas can have on faithful LDS teenagers and adults who struggle with homosexuality.The scriptures are clear that every man must be reborn have our natures changed by the atonement. That we must put off the natural man and yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit. That all of this is possible because of Christ.My nature has been changed in many ways with application of the atonement. I see no reason why anyone would be excused from this process.
Avatar4321 Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 My biggest problem with MOF is the way in which parable of the prodigal son is discussed. I found it so ironic that the most powerful story of forgiveness in scripture gets totally butchered in a book titled The Miracle of Forgiveness.And how was it butchered?
VideoGameJunkie Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 I hated the book. I like reading "Odds are, you're going to be exalted."
Rivers Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 (edited) And how was it butchered?Kimbal said that the younger son "could hope for no more than salvation as a servant..."That's not how I read the parable. Edited July 25, 2015 by Rivers 1
Recommended Posts