Does The Church Spark Joy In Your Life?

[Analytics]

Kate Kelly said that if the Church doesn't "spark joy" in your life, you should feel free to leave with your head held high.  A few members on this forum take issue with that advice, suggesting that finding joy in the Church is a fickle thing and leaving for that reason is inherently whimsical.

 

On the one hand, the days when I truly enjoyed Church were often few and far between, so I think I get the point.  On the other hand, I just don't see joy that way.  I've made some serious dedication to family, friends, work, and hobbies.  All of those things have given my tedium and frustration from time to time.  But when taking an inventory of my life and the things in it, the things I value include my family, friends, career, company, bicycle, BBQ grill, guitar, garden, and books.  All of those things bring me joy.  The joy is always clear--even on a day when I find guitar practice especially tedious and unpleasant, I wouldn't say I don't find joy in it and proceed to put the guitar in the trash. To me, joy is associated with knowing that you are sacrificing for something that is worthy of the sacrifice.

 

But what about you guys?  How much joy do you find in the Church?  Is joy ephemeral?

Edited July 21, 2015 by Analytics

[JLHPROF]

I think the idea that Church should make you happy (or "spark joy") is a strange one.

 

I certainly think a knowledge of the true gospel should bring us much joy.

But I also believe that there is a lot of trial, sacrifice, and struggle that we sign up for by accepting the truth.

[Stargazer]

Most of my adult children give me great cause for concern, I'm a bit frustrated at work at the moment, I'm way too overweight and flabby, my back starts killing me if I stay in bed asleep more than 8 hours at a time, and my wife is dying slowly from cancer in front of my eyes.

 

Yet despite all that I have great joy in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  I don't feel it explicitly every moment, because I guess I have to pay attention to the road when I'm driving, but whenever I happen to think about it, it is there and it feels like a constant companion.  It isn't the Church so much as it is the Gospel.  But they're kind of inseparable, so there we are.

[Stargazer]

I think the idea that Church should make you happy (or "spark joy") is a strange one.

 

I certainly think a knowledge of the true gospel should bring us much joy.

But I also believe that there is a lot of trial, sacrifice, and struggle that we sign up for by accepting the truth.

 

Hmmm.  I am the high priests group instructor and I teach three lessons per month.  I'm also our stake's singles branch finance clerk.  And I'm a stake emergency communications specialist (ham radio).  I actually enjoy teaching and get a great deal of joy our of it.  Branch finances are a bit prosaic perhaps, but it is satisfying to be able to be of service in that way.  As to the ham radio, that's one of my secular hobbies as well, so what's not to like?  I met my wife through the Church, and our Temple marriage is the chief source of my joy in life (as bittersweet as that is at the moment).  So, in real terms then, the Church seems to be source of most of my happiness.

 

All the trials, sacrifice and struggle don't really seem to amount to much.  It is greatly outweighed by the positive things.

[Robert F. Smith]

So far, every one of you seems to have a sound sense of values, and a mature grasp on what "joy" is really all about.  I wish Kate Kelly could understand that.  Perhaps someday she will.

[Mars]

the other thread is too crazy - but i didn't have an issue with her saying "if it works, do it.  if it doesn't, don't."  it felt like the gist of her message was "if it doesn't work, don't do it.  and here's a ton of reasons why it doesn't work."  i don't feel kate kelly approves of the church or fidelity insofar as the church is concerned in the slightest.  that was the issue i took.

 

fwiw - the church sometimes is a royal pain with all the meetings.  sometimes the pain is sacrifice and meant to make me grow and sometimes it's just the pain of being part of an organization and people are people.

 

on the whole it brings me joy.  so i voted the first option.

[CV75]

The Church is the means by which I dervive great joy in my life. The Church has given me baptism, the Gift of the Holy Ghost, priesthood and temple covenants, eternal sealings, a weekly renewal of these covenants, priesthood blessings of various kinds, opportunities to give to and serve the Lord, so much more. The companionship of the Holy Ghost has rendered temendous joy in all my relationships and activities that I otherwise would have not be sufficiently sanctified on my own to receive.

[Jacob]

Kate Kelly said that if the Church doesn't "spark joy" in your life, you should feel free to leave with your head held high.  A few members on this forum take issue with that advice, suggesting that finding joy in the Church is a fickle thing and leaving for that reason is inherently whimsical.

 

On the one hand, the days when I truly enjoyed Church were often few and far between, so I think I get the point.  On the other hand, I just don't see joy that way.  I've made some serious dedication to family, friends, work, and hobbies.  All of those things have given my tedium and frustration from time to time.  But when taking an inventory of my life and the things in it, the things I value include my family, friends, career, company, bicycle, BBQ grill, guitar, garden, and books.  All of those things bring me joy.  The joy is always clear--even on a day when I find guitar practice especially tedious and unpleasant, I wouldn't say I don't find joy in it and proceed to put the guitar in the trash. To me, joy is associated with knowing that you are sacrificing for something that is worthy of the sacrifice.

 

But what about you guys?  How much joy do you find in the Church?  Is joy ephemeral?

I would start by stating that happiness and joy are not guaranteed at all points in time within the Church. Job. At various points Joseph Smith. Christ's statement "Why hast thou forsaken me?" Abraham sacrificing Isaac. Etc. Not having "joy" is not an excuse for leaving the Church from the examples in the scriptures and Church history.

 

I enjoyed the Church and I agree with most of the Church's teachings and beliefs. My issue was that I don't like most of the members I know. I have been told at times in my life that the way that I dress reflected the fact that I was not living how I should be (e.g. Long hair as a teen, various non-white colored shirts worn to church, currently a beard.) I have seen family and friends judged by the LDS view of what is right or wrong and spoken of negatively because of things that are not wrong from their religious positions. And numerous other things. My "joy" could not compete with the treatment I received and saw others receive.

[jkwilliams]

I would start by stating that happiness and joy are not guaranteed at all points in time within the Church. Job. At various points Joseph Smith. Christ's statement "Why hast thou forsaken me?" Abraham sacrificing Isaac. Etc. Not having "joy" is not an excuse for leaving the Church from the examples in the scriptures and Church history.

 

I enjoyed the Church and I agree with most of the Church's teachings and beliefs. My issue was that I don't like most of the members I know. I have been told at times in my life that the way that I dress reflected the fact that I was not living how I should be (e.g. Long hair as a teen, various non-white colored shirts worn to church, currently a beard.) I have seen family and friends judged by the LDS view of what is right or wrong and spoken of negatively because of things that are not wrong from their religious positions. And numerous other things. My "joy" could not compete with the treatment I received and saw others receive.

 

I guess I'm the opposite. I like church members, for the most part, and with some exceptions members have always treated me pretty well. But even if I did feel mistreated or judged, I'd put up with it if I believed the church was true.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

I didn't answer the poll since I don't consider my self a true "believing member" or a "not a believing member." I'm more of a heritical member who does find joy from service in the church and (most of) its teachings.

 

My two cents: Life on this earth can be harsh, dealing pain, and sorrow randomly on both the righteous and the wicked.  Life is difficult. The gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ should not be a source of sorrow or unhappiness for us. If living in the church or according to church teachings is the source of our unhappiness then we are doing something wrong and living according to an untrue principal (see Alma 32). If we are to judge things by their fruits and the fruit of the church in our life is pain and sorrow, I think a break is in order. Perhaps God is trying to tell us something. 

[HappyJackWagon]

"Adam fell that men might be and men are that they might have joy."

 

A relationship with God should bring joy to our lives. If our participation in a church hinders the joyful relationship with God then it would be natural to cease participation in that church. I don't see why that is a crazy idea at all. Isn't it the same mentality we have in our missionary work. "Join us and receive a greater joy and knowledge" will only hold up if there is truly greater joy and knowledge.

 

 

ETA- the option of "believing member" is open for broad interpretation

Edited July 21, 2015 by HappyJackWagon

[BlueDreams]

But what about you guys?  How much joy do you find in the Church?  Is joy ephemeral?

 

I put it sometimes sparks joy.....I would have probably said it mostly sparks joy to be more accurate. But I can think of times that it most definitely didn't spark joy, per se. 

 

For example, my mission. Don't get me wrong, I loved my mission. But for the first few months in the field I was miserable. I couldn't even name why I was, but I had an overwhelming desire to cry all the time (and they were not tears of joy). It was like working with molasses persistently around my feet. It's also, probably, the closest I've ever been to depression. It turned out to be a good thing but it took me a while to find that. I got a 6 week break from it  and then I was miserable again for another 6, this time with unconscious rage and companion issues fueling it (I told her at one point, when she asked how I felt, that I felt like someone had cut out half my soul with a butter knife and I didn't know where they'd placed it). So I've had poignantly miserable experiences that can be attributed to church experiences. If I'd stopped my mission there I may have stated there was good, I know I was supposed to go, but I don't think I was supposed to be out there...it brought out the worst in me. And it did. But turns out God was trying to heal me, and He did an amazing job.

 

I've also been bored/unfulfilled in church settings and currently whether I'll get something from church is hit or miss. I've vividly disagreed with some teachings by my local church leaders (to the point of anger). I was exposed to religious beliefs by close family that were painful to hear and that I staunchly disagree with.  And there are still gender-related things that do bother me.

 

But I do have joy in it. I believe in it and the process of going through more unpleasant emotions, at times for long periods. They've quite often been motivators to seek out more and to become more. But I do feel, at this point that the experiences of "Joy" (ie. feeling great happiness and pleasure) itself has been more fleeting. It often comes in large bursts that last for a very short period, then subside. I've enjoyed all of them, of course, and there have been poignant church experiences that I attribute many of them to. But they're not super often. What I have received are more lasting experiences of the Spirit such as peace, deeper love, patience, steadiness, humility, etc....I guess one could say that is a joy in itself, but it's definitely a very different one than mentioned in the dictionary. These have been forged in experiences that simply weren't pleasant.

 

Which I'd assume are people's concerns with what was mentioned. Following sparks of joy often isn't enough, IMHO, in a gospel perspective....there's purpose in a refiner's fire. 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited July 21, 2015 by BlueDreams

[Kenngo1969]

As others have pointed out, there are a lot of potential sources of pain in life.  Yes, it can be a "pain" in a sense to have to deal with real pain on top of dealing with the "pain" of callings we don't (always) want to do, members who sometimes annoy us, and worse.  But even with all of the "pain" the Church of Jesus Christ might "cause," my experience has shown me no better aid in dealing with all of life's genuine pain.  Sometimes, I get to feeling a little antisocial; sometimes, I feel as though the last thing I want to do is to get dressed up and go sit in church for three hours or to serve in whatever calling I might have.  But then a little voice asks me, "Ken, is not doing those things gonna solve whatever problems you have?  At worst, the problems are still gonna be there when you're done, so why not go to church, why not serve, et cetera, anyway?"  And almost without exception, I find that being among my fellow Saints, even as antisocial as I might sometimes feel, makes me feel better.  If not, at worst, well, obviously there were worse things I could have done with those three hours (or whatever length of time it happens to be).

 

My Mom had a saying when we kids were growing up.  If we told her, "But, Mom, I don't want to," she said, "That's OK.  You don't have to want to."     (Yes, my mom is quite a lady.) I think God might be the same way: "Heavenly Father, I don't want to do this"; "That's OK. You don't have to want to."  I don't know whether Ms. Kelly equates joy and fun, or joy and pleasure; many people do, even though there are great differences between the first word and the latter two.  There are many things in life that aren't fun or pleasurable, but we do them anyway (because life isn't just about fun or pleasure): at bottom, life is about growth (though we might wonder how we've grown from some, perhaps many, of our experiences).  Living the Gospel isn't always fun or pleasurable, and, in the short run, maybe it doesn't even always bring joy.  But in the long run, in my experience, it is (and will always be) worth it.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[Jacob]

I guess I'm the opposite. I like church members, for the most part, and with some exceptions members have always treated me pretty well. But even if I did feel mistreated or judged, I'd put up with it if I believed the church was true.

I understand that and felt that way for a long time. It became too much. The scriptures state that men's "hearts will fail them." I think mine did. I don't have any animosity, a bit of hurt feelings when I and others are judged, but no animosity. My feeling currently is that I just don't want to be in the same place as those people. I doubt I'll do anything that will put me in Outer Darkness, just a telestial or terrestrial state. I'm fine with that. I don't believe that people will magically change at some point, I don't want to be with people that act like that. And if I'm wrong and they magically change through some divine/eternal interference, I don't want to be around them either. God can help someone change, but they are the ones that need to do it, with assistance. I don't agree with blatant brainwashing even desired blatant brainwashing.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Jacob

[Mark Beesley]

Hasn't Kelly enjoyed her 15 minutes of fame? She wouldn't have had that without the Church. Now it is time to ignore her.

[HappyJackWagon]

Hasn't Kelly enjoyed her 15 minutes of fame? She wouldn't have had that without the Church. Now it is time to ignore her.

The first step to ignoring her is not mentioning her in your posts

[Hikinggal]

This post made me stop and truly analyze what "joy" means to me at this stage of my life.  To understand what joy is I had to reflect upon what gives me joy.  The smell of the Russian Olive trees that grow along the river on a warm summer evening, the feel of the sun on my face through a window on a cold day, when a loved one walks through the door, laughing until my sides hurt.  All of these things provide me with the deepest sense of joy.  A joy that emanates from the very marrow of my bones.  

 

With using this as a point of reference I was then able to examine the question.  The answer is yes.  Yes, the Gospel of the Church gives me great joy. 

[jkwilliams]

The first step to ignoring her is not mentioning her in your posts

 

The first step is admitting you have a problem.

[HappyJackWagon]

As an aside, it's interesting to me that so many people can't let Kate Kelly go. They bring her up constantly while simultaneously condemning the fact that people bring her up. They say she's irrelevant but...

 

At the same time we hear complaints about why people who leave the church can't leave the church alone. Kate Kelly has never had the kind of lasting impact that the church has had in our lives yet we expect people to just forget the church and leave it completely alone when we can't even do the same for Kate Kelly.

[Ahab]

The Church is a bunch of people, and none of the members are Jesus or our Father or the Holy Spirit. Good at times, yes, but frustrating sonetimes, too. Opposition in all things even in the Church. But yeah those people do give me the spark of joy sometimes and I am happy to consider myself one of their number.

[jkwilliams]

As an aside, it's interesting to me that so many people can't let Kate Kelly go. They bring her up constantly while simultaneously condemning the fact that people bring her up. They say she's irrelevant but...

 

At the same time we hear complaints about why people who leave the church can't leave the church alone. Kate Kelly has never had the kind of lasting impact that the church has had in our lives yet we expect people to just forget the church and leave it completely alone when we can't even do the same for Kate Kelly.

 

There's this one guy who keeps lambasting me on my blog for my "unhealthy obsession" with Mormonism. I wonder what he'd say if I had a news feed set up for Mormon topics. As it is, I just comment on things I hear about, hence my ignorance of most things Kate Kelly. But you're point is well taken. 

[Kenngo1969]

Hasn't Kelly enjoyed her 15 minutes of fame? She wouldn't have had that without the Church. Now it is time to ignore her.

 

 

The first step to ignoring her is not mentioning her in your posts

 

 

The first step is admitting you have a problem.

 

John: "Hi, I'm John, and I'm an MD&DB addict."

Everyone else in unison: "Hi, John."

 

 Sorry; couldn't resist!

 

P.S.: In answer to the OP, I think, in a sense, Kate Kelly's asking the wrong question.  I expand on the idea here, in a post that incorporates my response from earlier this morning:

 

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2015/07/21/why-kate-kelly-is-wrong/

Edited July 21, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

There's this one guy who keeps lambasting me on my blog for my "unhealthy obsession" with Mormonism. ...

 

Well, OK John: I'll stop posting there if you want me to.

 

[jkwilliams]

Well, OK John: I'll stop posting there if you want me to.

 

 

Are you kidding? I thrive on the attention.

[JLHPROF]

A relationship with God should bring joy to our lives. If our participation in a church hinders the joyful relationship with God then it would be natural to cease participation in that church. I don't see why that is a crazy idea at all. Isn't it the same mentality we have in our missionary work. "Join us and receive a greater joy and knowledge" will only hold up if there is truly greater joy and knowledge.

 

As I've already said, I agree that the gospel should bring the joy of knowledge of Christ to our lives.  But it is a strange notion that that joy precludes any unhappiness also inherent in living the gospel.

 

Christ had great joy in the gospel and still experienced Gethsemane and Calvary.

Joseph Smith had great joy in the gospel and still experienced Liberty Jail and Carthage.

The early Christians had great joy in the gospel and were tortured and killed.

The early Mormon saints had great joy in the gospel and were robbed, starved, froze, and died.

 

If someone is unhappy living the gospel it isn't because the gospel doesn't bring joy.  It is because the gospel requires much sacrifice and trial along with the joy.  If a person is being tried by being a member of the Church that doesn't preclude the joy of the gospel, nor should it mean they shouldn't be a member.