Does The Church Spark Joy In Your Life?

[Mars]

There's this one guy who keeps lambasting me on my blog for my "unhealthy obsession" with Mormonism. I wonder what he'd say if I had a news feed set up for Mormon topics. As it is, I just comment on things I hear about, hence my ignorance of most things Kate Kelly. But you're point is well taken. 

 

it makes me feel better to take my aggression out on you.  but i'll knock off the comments.

 

(jk)

 

[carbon dioxide]

As an aside, it's interesting to me that so many people can't let Kate Kelly go. They bring her up constantly while simultaneously condemning the fact that people bring her up. They say she's irrelevant but...

 

At the same time we hear complaints about why people who leave the church can't leave the church alone. Kate Kelly has never had the kind of lasting impact that the church has had in our lives yet we expect people to just forget the church and leave it completely alone when we can't even do the same for Kate Kelly.

She is sort of like an infection that goes away but comes back.  Hopefully it does not become a chronic condition. 

[KevinG]

Joy "the peace that surpasseth understanding" I have with the Gospel.

Sparks of happiness "moments of enjoyment and pleasure" I often get with the Gospel, not so much with the "church" other than a few choice experiences with the youth.

 

I have a testimony and peace with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  The organizational church brings me to these moments but is sometimes a duty and chore.

 

However there have been some wonderfully sublime moments as the result of doing my duty and worship.

[rockpond]

Joy "the peace that surpasseth understanding" I have with the Gospel.

Sparks of happiness "moments of enjoyment and pleasure" I often get with the Gospel, not so much with the "church" other than a few choice experiences with the youth.

 

I have a testimony and peace with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  The organizational church brings me to these moments but is sometimes a duty and chore.

 

However there have been some wonderfully sublime moments as the result of doing my duty and worship.

 

Amen.

[MorningStar]

Overall, the church sparks joy for me.  I love the plan of salvation, eternal families, going to the temple, etc.  I don't love getting up early when I'm exhausted or waking up from my nap to go to choir sometimes, although I do love choir.

 

Motherhood sparks joy for me too overall, but I would never say it sparks joy for me when my baby somehow manages to poo up to her head and down to her feet at the same time.   

 

Anything worthwhile has moments of joy, but also difficulty.  I loved seminary.  Waking up at 5am though?  Hated that.  I was always happy once I got there though.  Friends at school asked me why I was so happy and I shared with them that seminary was a great start to my day. 

[HappyJackWagon]

As I've already said, I agree that the gospel should bring the joy of knowledge of Christ to our lives.  But it is a strange notion that that joy precludes any unhappiness also inherent in living the gospel.

 

Christ had great joy in the gospel and still experienced Gethsemane and Calvary.

Joseph Smith had great joy in the gospel and still experienced Liberty Jail and Carthage.

The early Christians had great joy in the gospel and were tortured and killed.

The early Mormon saints had great joy in the gospel and were robbed, starved, froze, and died.

 

If someone is unhappy living the gospel it isn't because the gospel doesn't bring joy.  It is because the gospel requires much sacrifice and trial along with the joy.  If a person is being tried by being a member of the Church that doesn't preclude the joy of the gospel, nor should it mean they shouldn't be a member.

I was thinking about this concept yesterday. Why is it necessary for the gospel or the church to cause great trials? We accept it as a given truth of life but why must it be that way? 

 

Along the same lines, in Sacrament Meeting someone mentioned the great trials in the church and how we must prove ourselves and show HF that we deserve to return to him. "We must pay the price." Okay, that's a fairly typical idea in the church, but why?

 

I'll be sending a child off to college soon where I hope she'll learn and grow. I hope she'll remember me and continue to love me. I hope that she'll return and we'll enjoy the reunion. I've never once thought about how I might make her "prove" her love to me by obedience to certain things. I've never once thought about cutting her off completely with the hopes that it will help her come closer to me or increase in love for the family. Nope. I'll welcome her back with open arms even if she doesn't call every week and even if she makes some bad decisions. I'll just be happy to have her back and I'll enjoy her company and will not judge her worthy or unworthy to enter my presence again.

[drums12]

I was thinking about this concept yesterday. Why is it necessary for the gospel or the church to cause great trials? We accept it as a given truth of life but why must it be that way? 

 

Along the same lines, in Sacrament Meeting someone mentioned the great trials in the church and how we must prove ourselves and show HF that we deserve to return to him. "We must pay the price." Okay, that's a fairly typical idea in the church, but why?

 

I'll be sending a child off to college soon where I hope she'll learn and grow. I hope she'll remember me and continue to love me. I hope that she'll return and we'll enjoy the reunion. I've never once thought about how I might make her "prove" her love to me by obedience to certain things. I've never once thought about cutting her off completely with the hopes that it will help her come closer to me or increase in love for the family. Nope. I'll welcome her back with open arms even if she doesn't call every week and even if she makes some bad decisions. I'll just be happy to have her back and I'll enjoy her company and will not judge her worthy or unworthy to enter my presence again.

God really doesn't choose whether or not we can enter His presence again.  He is bound, according to our theology at least, by eternal law.  Also, where we end up isn't just a matter of being clean (worthy).  It's also a matter of what law we are willing to abide. 

[JLHPROF]

I was thinking about this concept yesterday. Why is it necessary for the gospel or the church to cause great trials? We accept it as a given truth of life but why must it be that way? 

 

Along the same lines, in Sacrament Meeting someone mentioned the great trials in the church and how we must prove ourselves and show HF that we deserve to return to him. "We must pay the price." Okay, that's a fairly typical idea in the church, but why?

 

I'll be sending a child off to college soon where I hope she'll learn and grow. I hope she'll remember me and continue to love me. I hope that she'll return and we'll enjoy the reunion. I've never once thought about how I might make her "prove" her love to me by obedience to certain things. I've never once thought about cutting her off completely with the hopes that it will help her come closer to me or increase in love for the family. Nope. I'll welcome her back with open arms even if she doesn't call every week and even if she makes some bad decisions. I'll just be happy to have her back and I'll enjoy her company and will not judge her worthy or unworthy to enter my presence again.

 

You ask "Why is it necessary for the gospel or the church to cause great trials?"  I think there are two reasons.

 

I think drums12 hit the first reason pretty much on the head, and addresses your point about your child.  It isn't about having them in your presence.  It's about their willingness to live the the laws of the society in which you reside.  If your child felt that mass murder was perfectly ok and participated in it (yes, I'm being as outrageous as possible), your love might be willing to welcome them home, but the society in which you live would bar them from walking free. 

 

God really doesn't choose whether or not we can enter His presence again.  He is bound, according to our theology at least, by eternal law.  Also, where we end up isn't just a matter of being clean (worthy).  It's also a matter of what law we are willing to abide. 

 

To me, this below is the second reason. 

We cannot view residence in the Celestial Kingdom as something that happens at God's good pleasure.  It is an issue of those that follow the laws of the society and have the "culture" if you will ingrained in them.  And the trials are what change our nature.

 

 

Let us here observe, that a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation; for from the first existence of man, the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things: it was through this sacrifice, and this only, that God has ordained that men should enjoy eternal life; and it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things, that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God. When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has, for the truth's sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice, because he seeks to do his will, he does know most assuredly, that God does and will accept his sacrifice & offering, & that he has not nor will not seek his face in vain. Under these circumstances, then, he can obtain the faith necessary for him to lay hold on eternal life.

 

So basically, you have the trials to change your nature to one of faith and godliness so you can live among the Gods, and you have God requiring that we abide by the Celestial law.  Two requirements, not at God's pleasure, but a societal requirement.

[HappyJackWagon]

You ask "Why is it necessary for the gospel or the church to cause great trials?"  I think there are two reasons.

 

I think drums12 hit the first reason pretty much on the head, and addresses your point about your child.  It isn't about having them in your presence.  It's about their willingness to live the the laws of the society in which you reside.  If your child felt that mass murder was perfectly ok and participated in it (yes, I'm being as outrageous as possible), your love might be willing to welcome them home, but the society in which you live would bar them from walking free. 

 

 

To me, this below is the second reason. 

We cannot view residence in the Celestial Kingdom as something that happens at God's good pleasure.  It is an issue of those that follow the laws of the society and have the "culture" if you will ingrained in them.  And the trials are what change our nature.

 

 

So basically, you have the trials to change your nature to one of faith and godliness so you can live among the Gods, and you have God requiring that we abide by the Celestial law.  Two requirements, not at God's pleasure, but a societal requirement.

Thanks for the comments.

 

It does seem contradictory to church teachings to both suggest that God is omnipotent yet also "bound" by eternal laws and required to follow the laws of society.

 

Is God omnipotent (in a literal sense) or isn't he?

[JLHPROF]

Thanks for the comments.

 

It does seem contradictory to church teachings to both suggest that God is omnipotent yet also "bound" by eternal laws and required to follow the laws of society.

 

Is God omnipotent (in a literal sense) or isn't he?

 

Omnipotence is misunderstood and misapplied where God is concerned.  No, he is not literally omnipotent because the standard mortal definition of that word completely ignores all sense of logic.

 

Like the silly question, "Can God make a rock so heavy he can't move it?"  No matter what answer you give, yes or no, it renders God's omnipotence as lacking.

 

There are a great many things that God simply cannot do.  That doesn't stop him being omnipotent as we need him to be.

[HappyJackWagon]

Omnipotence is misunderstood and misapplied where God is concerned.  No, he is not literally omnipotent because the standard mortal definition of that word completely ignores all sense of logic.

 

Like the silly question, "Can God make a rock so heavy he can't move it?"  No matter what answer you give, yes or no, it renders God's omnipotence as lacking.

 

There are a great many things that God simply cannot do.  That doesn't stop him being omnipotent as we need him to be.

Thanks for the clarification. I think the issue of omnipotence is just another area where most of Christianity would disagree with the LDS perspective. Do you have a similar view of omniscience?

 

God is powerful enough or God is smart enough for our needs doesn't fill me with the same confidence as an omnipotent and omniscient God. Then again, maybe this is another example (like the loving parent paradigm) where we assign attributes to God to make ourselves feel better.

[JLHPROF]

Thanks for the clarification. I think the issue of omnipotence is just another area where most of Christianity would disagree with the LDS perspective. Do you have a similar view of omniscience?

 

Yes.  I don't believe in an end to knowledge or learning.  That is eternal progression.

 

 

 

God is powerful enough or God is smart enough for our needs doesn't fill me with the same confidence as an omnipotent and omniscient God. Then again, maybe this is another example (like the loving parent paradigm) where we assign attributes to God to make ourselves feel better.

 

Agreed.  What God is and isn't is often a result of our own viewpoint.

[HappyJackWagon]

Yes.  I don't believe in an end to knowledge or learning.  That is eternal progression.

 

 

Agreed.  What God is and isn't is often a result of our own viewpoint.

If traditional characteristics like omniscience & omnipotence are a result of our own viewpoint, isn't it possible that other characteristics are just as likely to be results of our viewpoints (often caused by our time and culture).

 

For example, we think of God as a "perfect", Loving, righteous God. Is it possible he's not completely perfect, righteous or loving...but merely "good enough".

[stemelbow]

Generally speaking people in the church seem has happy as people out of it. This is tough to answer because I'd have to know if I did not have the Church in my life whether I'd be as full of joy as I am.

Beats me.

[Kenngo1969]

Often, we think of ourselves as being the ones who are going to be begging God to allow us to come into, or to stay in, His presence, while He, a stern, perfectly-just God, tells us all of the reasons why that is not possible.  In reality, it's the other way around: God pleads with us to do all of the things that are necessary for us to enter His presence, and we are the ones who accept or reject the invitation.

[HappyJackWagon]

Often, we think of ourselves as being the ones who are going to be begging God to allow us to come into, or to stay in, His presence, while He, a stern, perfectly-just God, tells us all of the reasons why that is not possible.  In reality, it's the other way around: God pleads with us to do all of the things that are necessary for us to enter His presence, and we are the ones who accept or reject the invitation.

I've considered this quite a bit. This would be essentially like God saying "These are the house rules. If you choose to live by them you are welcome in the CK." I think it is true that we develop beliefs, attitudes, and behaviors during this life that may keep us from "wanting" to accept certain things in the CK.

 

For example, if early church teachings are correct, that polygamy is a requirement for the highest levels of the CK I would have to overcome a pretty strong attitude against polygamy. But this is a different concept than proving yourself "worthy" to enter God's presence.

Edited July 31, 2015 by HappyJackWagon

[Scott Lloyd]

Right now, there are two threads on this board whose topics are scriptural concepts that, if combined, can be instructive. One of those thread is this one. The other is the one about "waiting on the Lord."

 

Considering them in tandem, I am reminded of a passage from Psalms:

 

weeping may endure for a night, but ^bjoy cometh in the morning.

 

(Psalms 30:5)

[Guest]

The Church gives me great hope...due to injury I spend all my time at hom, unless to doctors. So on the weeks where I am able to attend, I am happy and juvelant, my spirit is lifted and the world seems new again. It is now a great comfort and more so when I read my scriptures and make the effort to be bless other that the trip being what gives me a lift, physical or otherwise.

[JLHPROF]

If traditional characteristics like omniscience & omnipotence are a result of our own viewpoint, isn't it possible that other characteristics are just as likely to be results of our viewpoints (often caused by our time and culture).

 

For example, we think of God as a "perfect", Loving, righteous God. Is it possible he's not completely perfect, righteous or loving...but merely "good enough".

 

Precisely. 

Brigham Young taught:

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect…" This is perfectly consistent to the person who understands what perfection really is...If the first passage I have quoted is not worded to our understanding, we can alter the phraseology of the sentence, and say, "Be ye as perfect as ye can," for that is all we can do, though it is written, be ye perfect as your Father who is in heaven is perfect. To be as perfect as we possibly can, according to our knowledge, is to be just as perfect as our Father in heaven is. He cannot be any more perfect than He knows how, any more than we."

[Guest]

The Gospel and it's reality sparks joy in my life. The Church is an institution of the Gospel...so yes to a degree.

[David13]

Yes attending the church brings joy to me.  I suppose Sunday is my favorite day of the week.

But as a retired person I don't have a lot else to do. 

I think I like all the people in the church (my ward and stake) except maybe one who's new so I don't know about him yet.

But this is my first year at it, so I wouldn't know where I'd be if I started out as a child like many of you.

dc

[mbh26]

I was happy in the Church when I believed I was working my way to heaven.  As long as I believed there was a payoff, I found happiness in that hope.  

[TJane]

Definitely a believing member, but not sure what "sparks joy" really means. Joy to me is so way different than happy or fun. I think of what the gospel brings to my life, and that is peace. Even when I'm screaming in frustration or fear to my Heavenly Father over my situation, I deep down know that following the gospel will get me to where I really want to be.

I can't help but see a picture of the LDS Church "sparking" my joy like a flint and steel sparking a campfire. My joy is like that - a fire that sometimes rages with high flames but at other times is just warm coals and embers. Being in the Church gives me opportunities to do things that will start my joy, but living the gospel is the thing that keeps it burning.

[JAHS]

My membership in the Church often sparks joy in my life; my testimony of and belief in the Gospel of Jesus Christ always sparks joy.

[VideoGameJunkie]

The spirit and the plan of salvation and concept of the Celestial Kingdom and returning to Heavenly Father spark joy and motivation in my life.