When People Leave...

[Tacenda]

I never thought about it. G

Unlike many people who leave the Church, I never lost faith or belief in God. I have never lost belief in God. So, when I left the Church, I had decided it was false.

I guess I will find out what it takes to come back. I am hopeful The Church is as forgiving as God....and will let me come back.

In a side note....a few years ago, when the pull started, I would go to Dallas Temple and just sit in the parking lot. Once, I even went into the foyer and sat in a chair. Just to feel it.

Silly, huh?

Heaven's no, not silly at all. In fact a lot people that lose faith seem to think more about the religion and resolving their disbelief through studying the history, prayer etc., almost obsessively. They need to get to the bottom of it so to speak, not saying that's you.

I remember going to the Salt Lake temple at the height of my FC and went to a session by myself. I thought it would help, especially since it was a live dramatization and that particular temple has such historical significance.

[bluebell]

I guess in the end I was looking for peoples opinion as to just how serious it is to break your temple covenants and leave as opposed to an unendowed member who chooses to leave.

 

Is it more serious?  Will God forgive both just as easily, because God says he will not be mocked?

And if so, what does that mean for someone who hopes to return?  Do they have a more stringent repentance process?  Should they?

 

As I explained in my OP I have family members in both situations I am holding out hope for.

 

Scripturally i think there are verses that talk about how it is more serious for those who sin against greater light and knowledge than those who sin under 'less' circumstances, but i think that's only something that God can really judge.  

 

I mean, only He knows when someone has truly done that because He's the only one that can see in their heart and know what they actually knew and also why they made the choices they did.  I think He is always way more merciful than we can even imagine.

 

I don't believe that losing faith is equal to mocking God-not at all.

[JLHPROF]

I don't believe that losing faith is equal to mocking God-not at all.

 

Neither do I.

[Jeanne]

Ii have just recently been bitten by the apostasy bug.  Some family members don't quite understand..but we have an understanding. That being said, for the first time, I have lost some friends.  I posted on facebook a letter written to an area authority..a long time friend  of mine and my husband had a curt reply and then defriended me.

 

Our families had known eachother for a long time and his wife was my RS President (the one who wasn't into deep doctrine)..but anyway, it hurt.  I wrote a personal message to him and told him how much I loved and appreciated his family and their friendship ...that my love for them had nothing to do with religion.  No word.  Just no longer have any access to his family.

 

Leaving the church does not have to do with good times, memories and all the love in between.  The first thing I thought of was how un-Christlike...and had I ever treated others this way as a staunch member.

[name]

Hi Jeanne,

 

Ii have just recently been bitten by the apostasy bug.  Some family members don't quite understand..but we have an understanding. That being said, for the first time, I have lost some friends.  I posted on facebook a letter written to an area authority..a long time friend  of mine and my husband had a curt reply and then defriended me.

 

Our families had known eachother for a long time and his wife was my RS President (the one who wasn't into deep doctrine)..but anyway, it hurt.  I wrote a personal message to him and told him how much I loved and appreciated his family and their friendship ...that my love for them had nothing to do with religion.  No word.  Just no longer have any access to his family.

How tragic and sad!

And completely unnecessary!

 

The first thing I thought of was how un-Christlike...and had I ever treated others this way as a staunch member.

Well.........have you?

Edited March 11, 2015 by name

[pogi]

I posted on facebook a letter written to an area authority..a long time friend  of mine and my husband had a curt reply and then defriended me.

 

I don't understand.  You posted a letter to an area authority (your friend) on Facebook and your area authority friend de-friended you for it?  Am I understanding you correctly?

 

What was the letter about and why did you publicly post it on Facebook?

[stemelbow]

There really is an unfortunate attitude some members have towards those who leave, or even those who are unorthodox. These stories are always magnified to the victim. it hurts worse sometimes when someone says something that seems so harmless to the speaker. It seems like the offended party feels even more hurt when the speaker doesn't recognize how it may hurt someone.

That's the problem in life, though. We've all said hurtful things and quite often we've said them without realizing who we're hurting. In some cases it's impossible not to hurt someone--he/she will be offended no matter what is said. And as he/she retells the story it becomes something it never was. I've realized as I've told stories of instances I've felt offended it was most often not intended to be what I perceived it to be.

One thing I've seen quite clearly is some members feel very offended by some of the things their ex-LDS family friends have said and done. And the opposite is true too. In some cases on both sides I've heard the stories presented from the one side only to learn that the other side sees it almost the opposite. I can't even fault the story tellers. I don't know if either are wrong or both are right, even if they seem so contradictory. But I feel like it's almost guaranteed that whenever I hear stories about offenses taken, the other side, the story often never told, sees it quite differently. I hate this junk. I hate it so bad. I don't want any part of it, but I don't know how to get away from it, as this same scenario plays out in everyone's life to some extent whether religion is involved or not.

I recognize, by and large, LDS people get a bad rap about this even though some LDS have hurt their families and friends.

[teddyaware]

Hi Teddy,

 

Of course - but my comments were directed to Spammer's experience.

 

I am sure that the inverse is also true.

I am not sure how that diminishes, in any way, Spammer's awful experience within the LDS Church though?

 

Perhaps - But again, I don't see how this (whether accurate or not) should impact, influence and/or has any significance to the responses from LDS folks about the experiences within the LDS Church - from LDS folks.

 

That is sad and unfortunate - IMO.

But, what is even sadder and more unfortunate - IMO - is when abuse is poured out from LDS members upon their very recent and now X LDS brethren. I would imagine that some of this abuse (I certainly would label Spammer's experience as abuse) is delivered by people and upon people that have shared long relationships (years/decades). They know each others kids - they have cried together - they have laughed together - they have worshipped together - etc. How is it even possible to turn your back on them? If there were ever a time when love, compassion, kindness and understanding ought to be extended - it is during times like these.

 

With respect, I completely disagree.

Godly charity and brotherly kindness has nothing to do with our personal achievements - LDS and/or spiritual included.

Godly charity and brotherly kindness comes as a result of - and directly from - the heart that is changed when one begins to walk with Christ. His Teachings and His examples that are splattered all over the NT. To take personal credit for that - is - IMO - a failure to recognize Who we serve and why it is even possible to do so.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

1) My first point is that the kind of abuse Spammer and his family were exposed to was not by Latter-day Saints who are mature in the faith and truly spiritually in tune. Just as in any Church, the Church of the Latter-day Saints has its share of members who go to Church services every week to learn how to follow in the footsteps of Christ, yet what they learn doesn't sink in as much as it should. So they end up behaving in ways that are contrary to what they are taught. I can assure you no General Authority of the LDS Church would countenance the kind of behavior described by Spammer; and I'm quite sure he would agree with me.

 

2) If one were to read my post carefully, he would realize I wasn't trying to justify bad behaviors of the Latter-day Saints by pointing to similarly uncharitable behaviors committed by non-LDS Christians. Rather, I was trying to point to the fact that spiritual immaturity isn't just a phenomenon found  among the Latter-day Saints. There is more than enough blame to go around when it comes to religious hypocrisy.

 

3) Why is it more sad and unfortunate when some spiritually immature and hypocritical Latter-day Saints turn their backs on former members than it is when non-LDS Christians do precisely the same thing to their former fellow church members who become Latter-day Saints? I don't get it. Is it because even though you don't believe in the LDS Church, you somehow think we should be held to a higher standard than non-LDS Christians who also turn their backs on family members and life-long friends who convert to the LDS Church? I don't think you applied enough critical thinking to this point.

 

5) I said nothing about "personal achievement" and taking "personal credit" for spiritual growth. You presumptuously put words in my mouth I never had any intent to say. I was speaking of the spiritual growth -- also know as growing in the grace and knowledge God -- that is obtained by exercising living faith in Jesus Christ by obedience to His commandments. Perhaps you don't believe in the process of spiritual growth and spiritual improvement through the grace of Christ, but the Latter-day Saints do. The Bible is full of counsel to the true believers to move forward in Christ in pursuit of the worthy goal (prize) of achieving dynamic spiritual growth through faith in Christ and the diligent application of the spiritual gifts and powers given to all faithful Christians by virtue of the Saviour's atoning sacrifice.

 

The Apostles of Christ never preached a gospel of spiritual laziness, saying that a believer need do nothing more other than rest on the laurels of an initial profession of faith in Christ. Such an attitude of spiritual laziness and ingratitude is known as "doing despite to the spirit of grace." The Latter-day Saints believe Christ suffered and died not only to bring a remission of sins, but He also suffered and died to make them holy in thought, emotion and in very deed. We don't believe the fulness of the holiness He offers us can be obtained by being slothful in living the Gospel of Christ. Rather, we are always strongly encouraged follow the counsel of the Apostle Paul who didn't believe it was right to think there's nothing left for a believer to do after first coming unto Christ. As great a follower of Christ as Paul was, he knew that even for the most faithful and diligent of Christians. many opportunities for continued spiritual growth, through the power of the great atoning sacrifice, always lie ahead. And Christ expects His disciples to take full advantage of those opportunities for spiritual growth He purchased for them at such a terrible price. To those who already believed in Him He said:

 

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3)

 

And now Paul

 

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, foetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. (Phil 3)

Edited March 11, 2015 by teddyaware

[KevinG]

I frequently ask myself if I correct my children because I am worried about the consequences for them, or because I am upset or embarrassed about how it reflects on me.

 

If my motivations are about their well being then my corrections or counsel is usually much more Christlike and encouraging, than if I'm worried about my own ego.

 

I have a son who is going through his own faith crisis.  He is unwilling to declare he has a testimony until he receives the promised revelation that Alma speaks of.  It is a journey for both of us, but I have found cause to complement him on his integrity, and willingness to be honest in the face of pressure to believe.  I privately pray for him each day, but refrain from pressuring him to conform to my beliefs, only ask that he does not give up on finding his own answer, or compromise his standards in a way that would prevent him from receiving revelation in the future.

 

My experience tells me he will be more faithful in the end than any number of children whose families pressure them out of embarrassment or appearances.  My observation is that apostasy is often the fruit of unrighteous dominion, unrighteous judgement, and selfishness on the part of those family members and church members who should be supporting, praying, lifting, and respecting the agency of others.

[VideoGameJunkie]

If people leave, never give up hope that they may come back one day. Leaving isn't final.

[name]

Hi again teddy!

 

3) Why is it more sad and unfortunate when some spiritually immature and hypocritical Latter-day Saints turn their backs on former members than it is when non-LDS Christians do precisely the same thing to their former fellow church members who become Latter-day Saints?

It isn't!

Perhaps I wasn't clear - I intended to offer my opinion that it is much sadder and unfortunate when people from their very own fold - their brethren - (LDS, Baptist, Hindu, Lutheran, etc) turn their backs. No matter what congregation.

 

 

I don't get it. Is it because even though you don't believe in the LDS Church, you somehow think we should be held to a higher standard than non-LDS Christians who also turn their backs on family members and life-long friends who convert to the LDS Church?

No - not at all.

 

I don't think you applied enough critical thinking to this point.

Yeah - critical thinking isn't one of my strong suits.

 

5) I said nothing about "personal achievement" and taking "personal credit" for spiritual growth. You presumptuously put words in my mouth

Fair enough - I offer you my sincere apology.

Thanks for the elaboration and clarification.

Edited March 11, 2015 by name

[Calm]

Leaving the church does not have to do with good times, memories and all the love in between.  The first thing I thought of was how un-Christlike...and had I ever treated others this way as a staunch member.

What was the letter like?  Do you think they might have looked on it as attacking their personal faith.  

[carbon dioxide]

If people leave, never give up hope that they may come back one day. Leaving isn't final.

We have a good man in our ward who left for a while and came back.  He says that during his interview with stake council that he always had a testimony that one of the people in the council later told him that he was show a vision of the spirit world of those on the other side doing everything they could short of violating his agency to keep him in the Church.  We should never give up because there are many in the spirit world who are not going to give up on us.  Perhaps because they see first hand the great consequences that occur to those that do leave and never come back.

[name]

To anyone I have offended, I am sorry.

It was not my intention.

Because of some who find me to be "condescending", "ignorant" and "pitiful" with my contributions - my participation in this thread has reached an end.

[Garden Girl]

To anyone I have offended, I am sorry.

It was not my intention.

Because of some who find me to be "condescending", "ignorant" and "pitiful" with my contributions - my participation in this thread has reached an end.

 

Guilty... and name, while I expressed in my PM to you that I found you condescending, I did say I was searching for a word other than "ignorant" because I did not believe you to be so... so let's keep it straight of what I said about you that you report here... no one called you ignorant... and it was your expression of extremely deep sadness that I found pitiful...

 

GG

[ALarson]

To anyone I have offended, I am sorry.

It was not my intention.

Because of some who find me to be "condescending", "ignorant" and "pitiful" with my contributions - my participation in this thread has reached an end.

That's unfortunate.  I've enjoyed reading your posts and learning from your perspective.  

 

I have not seen anything condescending from you.  I hope you stick around!

[teddyaware]

To anyone I have offended, I am sorry.

It was not my intention.

Because of some who find me to be "condescending", "ignorant" and "pitiful" with my contributions - my participation in this thread has reached an end.

 

 

Just in case you're wondering, I'm not numbered among those who may feel that way about you, You seem just fine to me. If my previous post seems too hard-hitting, please forgive me. In writing I can appear to be very intense, but when folks get meet me in the flesh, they realize I'm a nice guy.

 

I guess some of my intensity in writing stems from constantly having to defend the religion I love against attacks from those who seem prepared to only believe the worst about the Latter-day Saints. The vast majority of the Latter-day Saints I know personally -- and I know a great many of them --  are the finest, kindest and most wonderful people I know; the kind of people who would not at all be inclined to act like the insensitive, gossipy busybodies who appear to have made Spammers life so miserable.

 

While I don't doubt there are some spiritually blind, self-righteous LDS Church members who are capable of behaving in the unchristlike way Spammer describes, I also believe their numbers constitute only a small percentage of those who actually have true testimonies of what we Latter-day Saints call the "Restored Gospel." We are constantly taught to look for and magnify the good in others, while simultaneously making a conscious effort to minimize and charitably overlook their imperfections. And in all honesty, I can say most of the active members I know seriously strive to live by that wonderful, healing counsel. And guess what, I'll bet if Spammer really tried he could find some genuine goodness in those who offended him. Forgiveness is what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is all about. 

 

All the best to you. 

Edited March 11, 2015 by teddyaware

[Jeanne]

What was the letter like?  Do you think they might have looked on it as attacking their personal faith.  

Not at all.  It was a kind letter with a plea of help and truth.

[Dgal]

Specifically referring to temple covenants.

Most exmormons I have come in contact with have broken temple covenants, assuming that they had made them.

Speaking a bit more specifically, they have removed the priesthood garment ( a covenant is made to wear them at all times), probably have spoke evil of the Lord's annointed (Law of the Gospel), The Law of Sacrifice (building up the kingdome of God), the Law of Consecration, (everything for the Church, everything).

Many reveal the signs, tokens, penalties, new names etc.

 

I would be surprised to find any exmormon who hasn't broken  any of the above covenants.

[Dgal]

I guess in the end I was looking for peoples opinion as to just how serious it is to break your temple covenants and leave as opposed to an unendowed member who chooses to leave.

 

Is it more serious?  Will God forgive both just as easily, because God says he will not be mocked?

And if so, what does that mean for someone who hopes to return?  Do they have a more stringent repentance process?  Should they?

 

As I explained in my OP I have family members in both situations I am holding out hope for.

It is much more serious because of the temple convenants made.

God will and does forgive those who truly repent and return with sincere and contrite heart. But they must disovow all the evils they have done, and may have to go thru a period of time before those covenants are reinstated. Many have lead, or try to lead, others out of the Church. That is very serious.

Being excommunicated is a very serious action taken. It is not taken lightly when one seeks re-entry. Covenants, after all, have been broken.

[Dgal]

Please define breaking covenants.

 

All I had done prior was lose my testimony.  I was still a member.  The conduct of members caused me to leave.  Do you know that, at 54, to this day, I still honor the WoW?  I am an attorney and former Army Officer who still has never touched tobacco or alcohol.

 

However, I regress.

 

What covenants?

 

 

Prior to your excommunication, did you ever speak ill of the Lord's annointed? Did you remove your garments? Don't know how long you have been away, so not sure how well you remember the covenants you made.

[Jeanne]

Hi Jeanne,

 

How tragic and sad!

And completely unnecessary!

 

Well.........have you?

Probably....And it is another lesson learned.

[Jeanne]

I don't understand.  You posted a letter to an area authority (your friend) on Facebook and your area authority friend de-friended you for it?  Am I understanding you correctly?

 

What was the letter about and why did you publicly post it on Facebook?

No..what I meant wasit was a letter to an Area Authority that I posted on facebook.  My friend said it was vulgar..but it was kind.  He was upset and defriended me.

[JLHPROF]

It is much more serious because of the temple convenants made.

God will and does forgive those who truly repent and return with sincere and contrite heart. But they must disovow all the evils they have done, and may have to go thru a period of time before those covenants are reinstated. Many have lead, or try to lead, others out of the Church. That is very serious.

Being excommunicated is a very serious action taken. It is not taken lightly when one seeks re-entry. Covenants, after all, have been broken.

 

This is what I was asking/getting at.

The piece of information I feel I am missing is does the Church make any repentance differentiation based on the level of covenant violated.

Also, if God takes such violations more seriously, does he require additional repentance?

 

Just how much more serious is the journey back?

[Dgal]

I don't have any documentation, but my understanding is that it is harder for men, because they have held the priesthood, which is another covenant broken. I am not sure if it remains at the stake level for former priesthood holders or if it has to pass thru Salt Lake, however.