When People Leave...

[Teancum]

http://bycommonconsent.com/2015/03/10/grieving-the-leaving/

 

How do we respond when a family member or someone we are very close to leaves the Church?

 

This article takes a very loving approach to it.

 

I have many family members who have left the Church but I have a hard time being as loving as I should.  I have a couple of younger brothers who chose to leave, and I don't hold it against them and hope they will choose to return one day.

However, my mother left the Church, married an atheist and removed her garments (breaking at least two covenants).  I am not as positive with her as I am with my brothers.  It's ironic because she raised me to consider the breaking of temple covenants as an extremely serious sin, harder to repent of than most.

 

I think I find myself treating those who choose to break their covenants (esp. Temple) more harshly than I do those who weren't under a covenant.  I feel it is much more serious, but I wonder if the Church in general still does.

It's the old "perdition" doctrine - the higher you climb and then fall the harder it is to climb back.

In your opinion, is the breaking of temple covenants still considered as big a deal to your ability to repent and return as it used to be or has the Church become more lenient?  When we pray for people who do this to repent and return do we still recognize that it's harder and takes more than for a wayward youth for instance?

 

 

My take is everyone has their own journey.  I hope I can just love and accept (unless they are doing destructive things to themselves or others) and let God figure it out assuming God really exists.

[JLHPROF]

When I stopped believing in god as a personage, the covenants made in the endowment were non-binding.

 

The other half of my point was, should you ever start believing and desire to return, do you think you would be under more condemnation for the covenants you broke than if you had been an unendowed youth?  Should repentance be a lengthier process with more required?

[rongo]

It is procedurally harder to come back after voluntary resignation than it is for excommunication. Not impossible (many of us know people who have done this), but it is more difficult and entails more scrutiny.

[Teancum]

Hi Kate,

I'm confused.

The Holy Spirit only dwells in those people who belong to the LDS church?

 

 

Yea Mormons thing that only members of their Church in good standing have the gift of the Holy Ghost on and ongoing basis.

[CV75]

The other half of my point was, should you ever start believing and desire to return, do you think you would be under more condemnation for the covenants you broke than if you had been an unendowed youth?  Should repentance be a lengthier process with more required?

There are so many other things to consider, which is why we have judges in Israel. But an individual comparing himself under two different crumstances might tend to condemn himself more when he is ready to repent of either scenario than when he isn't.

[name]

Hi Teancum,

Yea Mormons thing that only members of their Church in good standing have the gift of the Holy Ghost on and ongoing basis.

Yeah, this is what I am gathering.

IMO - this particular belief is so unfortunate and sad. It also seems that it has the real potential to be the root-cause of much pain and division (Unnecessary pain and division IMO)

[Calm]

It is procedurally harder to come back after voluntary resignation than it is for excommunication. Not impossible (many of us know people who have done this), but it is more difficult and entails more scrutiny.

I would think it would depend a great deal on age and reason…is there anything in the policy that can be adapted based on that?

 

I would also assume that excommunication for apostasy might be as difficult or is that a wrong assumption?

[rockpond]

I would think it would depend a great deal on age and reason…is there anything in the policy that can be adapted based on that?

 

I would also assume that excommunication for apostasy might be as difficult or is that a wrong assumption?

 

Your first question goes beyond the scope of Handbook 1.  Re-baptism after a voluntary resignation requires FP approval.  What policies and/or standards they apply (age, reason, etc) are probably known only to them and their assistants in the process.

 

Re-baptism after excommunication for the following reasons also requires FP approval (per section 6.12.10):  murder, incest, sexual abuse of a child or serious physical abuse of a child (paraphrasing), committing a serious transgression while in a prominent church position, elective transsexual operation, embezzlement of church funds or property, and (as you asked) apostasy.

Edited March 10, 2015 by rockpond

[Yirgacheffe]

The other half of my point was, should you ever start believing and desire to return, do you think you would be under more condemnation for the covenants you broke than if you had been an unendowed youth?  Should repentance be a lengthier process with more required?

You're the older son aren't you?

[JLHPROF]

You're the older son aren't you?

 

I believe my statement about having a couple of younger brothers gave that away already...

[Tacenda]

When I left in 1989...it was horrible. My LDS friends all walked away......I was harassed. I was told I had committed the unforgivable sin. And that was just the start.

It's no wonder so many are undercover strugglers! Go out and change this attitude CB!

[Spammer]

it's not just those who leave who are harassed.  Active spouses also get it with both barrels.  My own experience after leaving was similar to CB's.  On top of that, my wife was asked by three different ladies if she was worried whether I might molest my son, if I had stopped loving her, and if I was having an affair. Another one told my wife she thought I was an a-hole.  All of this only because I had a spiritual crisis and looked elsewhere for an experience of the divine.  This wasn't in 1989, either.  It all happened in 2008.  I still struggle with anger issues as a result of these experiences.  That's one reason why I started posting on this board.  It's helped me feel better about church members.  There are some good people among the rotten ones.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Spammer

[name]

Hi Spammer,

my wife was asked by three different ladies if she was worried whether I might molest my son, if I had stopped loving her, and if I was having an affair.

Wow, that is fantastically inappropriate - extremely divisive - and utterly bizarre!

I still struggle with anger issues as a result of these experiences.

I can certainly understand that.

[Stroopwafel]

I think I find myself treating those who choose to break their covenants (esp. Temple) more harshly than I do those who weren't under a covenant.  I feel it is much more serious, but I wonder if the Church in general still does.

It's the old "perdition" doctrine - the higher you climb and then fall the harder it is to climb back.

In your opinion, is the breaking of temple covenants still considered as big a deal to your ability to repent and return as it used to be or has the Church become more lenient?  When we pray for people who do this to repent and return do we still recognize that it's harder and takes more than for a wayward youth for instance?

 

Maybe this reaction comes from a deep and stern commitment which makes you impervious as to how other people can actually disagree on common experiences which you share. More specifically, it is probably that you don't or simply cannot consider how you would personally ever come to this point; an inability to project yourself in their situation. Doing so helps to have a greater compassion for other's weaknesses, and our own.

 

I hope you don't see this as criticism. It is something everyone struggle with in one way or another. Plus, it is the essential message of Christ, which is great wisdom and is indeed a great task to accomplish:

 

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them" (Matt 7:12)

 

"And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these." (Mark 12:31)

[teddyaware]

Hi Spammer,

Wow, that is fantastically inappropriate - extremely divisive - and utterly bizarre!

I can certainly understand that.

 

Not every LDS congregation has the kind of catty, spiritually immature people Spammer has encountered. And there's no need for LDS Church outsiders to be surprised when they learn this sort of thing can occur in the LDS Church, because the inverse is of Spammer's experience is also very common: There have been and are now many thousands of instances where non-LDS Christians have shunned, belittled, sneered at, condemned to hell and even disowned former friends and family members who have left their churches to embrace the LDS religion. Heartbreaking accounts of this kind of abuse poured out on LDS Church converts are legion. Unfortunately, regardless of the religions involved, it's a common manifestation of the fallen human nature to react poorly when a former friend or family member is perceived to have "gone over to the dark side." 

 

Another important point to consider is that it is not at all uncommon for former rmembers, who leave because of unbelief, to soon go on to become some of the LDS Church's bitterest critics; they leave the Church but just can't walk away and leave it alone. More and more the Internet discussion boards are filled with these bitter former believers who feel compelled to rail against their once-loved former religion. So when someone leaves the Church because he or she no longer believes (not just falls into a state of benign inactivity), some unwise and childish members will hastily presume that former member will become one of these bitterly anti-Mormon former members.

 

But I must add, the more secure and grounded an LDS Church member is in his belief, the less likely it will will be for him to "jump the gun" and presume the worst when a fellow member no longer believes. Godly charity and brotherly kindness can be manifested in an individual only in direct proportion to the degree of spiritual maturity he achieves. 

Edited March 11, 2015 by teddyaware

[Anakin7]

    A # of years ago I was ex - comm and do to my own behaviours [ In The World ] but was Loved by other LDS Members Back into the Kingdom with open Arms and Hearts.

 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

[UtahTexan]

That's unfortunate (not to mention doctrinally incorrect).

 

But perhaps you might be in a unique position to answer my question having left and now returning (if I remember your background correctly, and I apologize if I don't).

 

Do YOU feel like more is required to return to the Church after having broken previous covenants than would be required of someone who had never been under the same covenants or as many covenants?

 

Please define breaking covenants.

 

All I had done prior was lose my testimony.  I was still a member.  The conduct of members caused me to leave.  Do you know that, at 54, to this day, I still honor the WoW?  I am an attorney and former Army Officer who still has never touched tobacco or alcohol.

 

However, I regress.

 

What covenants?

[name]

Hi Teddy,

 

Not every LDS congregation has the kind of catty, spiritually immature people Spammer has encountered.

Of course - but my comments were directed to Spammer's experience.

 

And there's no need for LDS Church outsiders to be surprised when they learn this sort of thing can occur in the LDS Church, because the inverse is of Spammer's experience is also very common:

I am sure that the inverse is also true.

I am not sure how that diminishes, in any way, Spammer's awful experience within the LDS Church though?

 

There have been and are now many thousands of instances where non-LDS Christians have shunned, belittled, sneered at, condemned to hell and even disowned former friends and family members who have left their churches to embrace the LDS religion.

Perhaps - But again, I don't see how this (whether accurate or not) should impact, influence and/or has any significance to the responses from LDS folks about the experiences within the LDS Church - from LDS folks.

 

Heartbreaking accounts of this kind of abuse poured out on LDS Church converts are legion.

That is sad and unfortunate - IMO.

But, what is even sadder and more unfortunate - IMO - is when abuse is poured out from LDS members upon their very recent and now X LDS brethren. I would imagine that some of this abuse (I certainly would label Spammer's experience as abuse) is delivered by people and upon people that have shared long relationships (years/decades). They know each others kids - they have cried together - they have laughed together - they have worshipped together - etc. How is it even possible to turn your back on them? If there were ever a time when love, compassion, kindness and understanding ought to be extended - it is during times like these.

 

Godly charity and brotherly kindness can be manifested in an individual only in direct proportion to the degree of spiritual maturity he achieves.

With respect, I completely disagree.

Godly charity and brotherly kindness has nothing to do with our personal achievements - LDS and/or spiritual included.

Godly charity and brotherly kindness comes as a result of - and directly from - the heart that is changed when one begins to walk with Christ. His Teachings and His examples that are splattered all over the NT. To take personal credit for that - is - IMO - a failure to recognize Who we serve and why it is even possible to do so.

Thanks for the discussion.

Edited March 11, 2015 by name

[JLHPROF]

Please define breaking covenants.

 

All I had done prior was lose my testimony.  I was still a member.  The conduct of members caused me to leave.  Do you know that, at 54, to this day, I still honor the WoW?  I am an attorney and former Army Officer who still has never touched tobacco or alcohol.

 

However, I regress.

 

What covenants?

 

Specifically referring to temple covenants.

[UtahTexan]

Specifically referring to temple covenants.

 

I never thought about it.  

 

Unlike many people who leave the Church, I never lost faith or belief in God.  I have never lost belief in God.  So, when I left the Church, I had decided it was false.

 

I guess I will find out what it takes to come back.   I am hopeful The Church is as forgiving as God....and will let me come back.

 

In a side note....a few years ago, when the pull started, I would go to Dallas Temple and just sit in the parking lot.  Once, I even went into the foyer and sat in a chair.  Just to feel it.

 

Silly, huh?

[bluebell]

Please define breaking covenants.

 

All I had done prior was lose my testimony.  I was still a member.  The conduct of members caused me to leave.  Do you know that, at 54, to this day, I still honor the WoW?  I am an attorney and former Army Officer who still has never touched tobacco or alcohol.

 

However, I regress.

 

What covenants?

 

I think JLHPROF is assuming that it's not possible to choose to nullify our baptism and temple covenants (by requesting our membership in the church be nullified) without breaking those covenants.  That the act of not wanting to be under those covenants anymore IS an act of breaking them.

 

I don't think he means that you were out committing sin just because you stopped being a member of the church.  

[bluebell]

I never thought about it.  

 

Unlike many people who leave the Church, I never lost faith or belief in God.  I have never lost belief in God.  So, when I left the Church, I had decided it was false.

 

I guess I will find out what it takes to come back.   I am hopeful The Church is as forgiving as God....and will let me come back.

 

In a side note....a few years ago, when the pull started, I would go to Dallas Temple and just sit in the parking lot.  Once, I even went into the foyer and sat in a chair.  Just to feel it.

 

Silly, huh?

 

In my experience, the church is very forgiving.  

 

And i don't think what you said about the Dallas temple is silly at all!  I think it's wonderful, and very brave.  I don't think i would have been that brave even if i had wanted to do something similar under similar circumstances.  

[JLHPROF]

I guess in the end I was looking for peoples opinion as to just how serious it is to break your temple covenants and leave as opposed to an unendowed member who chooses to leave.

 

Is it more serious?  Will God forgive both just as easily, because God says he will not be mocked?

And if so, what does that mean for someone who hopes to return?  Do they have a more stringent repentance process?  Should they?

 

As I explained in my OP I have family members in both situations I am holding out hope for.

[UtahTexan]

Well....I do not know how to respond.  It is hard to see the breaking of covenants.

 

I suppose I could say that The Church broke faith with me back then.  I learned things thru study that I had never heard and that now the Church admits to.....had the Church been as open then as it is now, perhaps my testimony could have salvaged.

 

Additionally, I do not think anyone would have stayed if they had been treated like I was back then.

 

All I know is...I have regained what was lost and am hopeful to come back.

[UtahTexan]

I guess in the end I was looking for peoples opinion as to just how serious it is to break your temple covenants and leave as opposed to an unendowed member who chooses to leave.

 

Is it more serious?  Will God forgive both just as easily, because God says he will not be mocked?

And if so, what does that mean for someone who hopes to return?  Do they have a more stringent repentance process?  Should they?

 

As I explained in my OP I have family members in both situations I am holding out hope for.

 

Not sure it matters if you are endowed or not when the testimony is lost.