Ham Clam Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 I remember un-friending an acquaintance in a singles ward for getting a tattoo a couple of years now.Now that feels stupid.
Dgal Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 I remember un-friending an acquaintance in a singles ward for getting a tattoo a couple of years now.Now that feels stupid. Yea, I would sit with that feeling for a bit, then move forward and leave it behind.
Stone holm Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 http://bycommonconsent.com/2015/03/10/grieving-the-leaving/ How do we respond when a family member or someone we are very close to leaves the Church? This article takes a very loving approach to it. I have many family members who have left the Church but I have a hard time being as loving as I should. I have a couple of younger brothers who chose to leave, and I don't hold it against them and hope they will choose to return one day.However, my mother left the Church, married an atheist and removed her garments (breaking at least two covenants). I am not as positive with her as I am with my brothers. It's ironic because she raised me to consider the breaking of temple covenants as an extremely serious sin, harder to repent of than most. I think I find myself treating those who choose to break their covenants (esp. Temple) more harshly than I do those who weren't under a covenant. I feel it is much more serious, but I wonder if the Church in general still does.It's the old "perdition" doctrine - the higher you climb and then fall the harder it is to climb back.In your opinion, is the breaking of temple covenants still considered as big a deal to your ability to repent and return as it used to be or has the Church become more lenient? When we pray for people who do this to repent and return do we still recognize that it's harder and takes more than for a wayward youth for instance?The Church treats those who break Temple Covenants more seriously as well when they stray.
Tacenda Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 I remember un-friending an acquaintance in a singles ward for getting a tattoo a couple of years now.Now that feels stupid.I'm sure that Al Fox helped curb a lot of stigma toward tattoos!
Sleeper Cell Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) Great post, Stem. A thoughful approach.When I stopped believing in god as a personage, the covenants made in the endowment were non-binding.It's somewhat like making a childhood promise to Santa that you'll believe in and leave him cookies your entire life, and then being committed to follow through on that promise till old age. What sense would there be to deride a person for failing to follow through on such a promise? Except that when you made your temple covenants, you were an adult, not a child. One can argue that they are non-binding if God is not a personage, or doesn’t exist, or never authorized the covenants in the first place (hence you never actually made a covenant with God). But not because you changed your mind or your beliefs. I do agree that it would make little sense for me to deride you for failing to keep your temple covenants. After all, you certainly did not make any covenant with me. Edited March 12, 2015 by Sleeper Cell 2
Kenngo1969 Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 I'm sure that Al Fox helped curb a lot of stigma toward tattoos!Did Al Fox get her tattoos before or after she made covenants? (Don't misunderstand: I don't think getting a tattoo is "the sin next to murder," or anything, and I do have plenty of friends who have tattoos, but I would also hope that one's sense of rebirth would carry with it the idea that the body is a temple, and that, as such, it is deserving of our highest respect. My $0.02. Your mileage may vary. )
Calm Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 No..what I meant wasit was a letter to an Area Authority that I posted on facebook. My friend said it was vulgar..but it was kind. He was upset and defriended me. Do you think he was lying when he said he thought it was vulgar? 1
UtahTexan Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 I don't have any documentation, but my understanding is that it is harder for men, because they have held the priesthood, which is another covenant broken. I am not sure if it remains at the stake level for former priesthood holders or if it has to pass thru Salt Lake, however.I was very happy about coming home after 24 years...but reading your posts makes me wonder if I should even try.....makes me feel a sense of lost hope
Tacenda Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) Kenngo, I'm glad for people like Al Fox to be in the church, especially since I have 2 older children with tattoos, daughters no less!! When they got them I worried that others would judge. The one daughter works for the church and must cover them. They are just on the top of one foot, so no sandals for her. The other daughter gave herself tattoos. It has been hard to see people's reactions. And she has piercings. If you knew me before my faith crisis you'd know that this would have been terribly hard to accept. Maybe that's a plus out of all that has been negative. I don't stress as much as I would have and would have created a wedge between my daughters over their choices. Constantly remind myself of all their wonderful qualities and try not to judge their outside appearances. So maybe you'll understand my viewpoint with Al Fox hopefully. And yes, of course I know she's a convert and had them before joining, but it stills helps having her there and showing that good people can have tattoos. Edited March 12, 2015 by Tacenda
JLHPROF Posted March 12, 2015 Author Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) I was very happy about coming home after 24 years...but reading your posts makes me wonder if I should even try.....makes me feel a sense of lost hope Definitely NOT the intent of this thread. Repentance IS absolutely possible and a wonderful blessing. If the Church is true (and it is) don't let the concerns expressed on this thread worry you. You will certainly be welcomed back - Luke 15 (esp vs 7) We are just discussing the seriousness of violating temple covenants as opposed to someone who isn't under a covenant. Edited March 12, 2015 by JLHPROF
UtahTexan Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 Definitely NOT the intent of this thread. Repentance IS absolutely possible and a wonderful blessing. If the Church is true (and it is) don't let the concerns expressed on this thread worry you. You will certainly be welcomed back - Luke 15 (esp vs 7) We are just discussing the seriousness of violating temple covenants as opposed to someone who isn't under a covenant. but under that definition, I broke my temple vows.....I also debated on boards against the LDS Church. They wont let me back
JLHPROF Posted March 12, 2015 Author Posted March 12, 2015 but under that definition, I broke my temple vows.....I also debated on boards against the LDS Church. They wont let me back Yes they will. They absolutely will. Happens all the time. There will be conditions of repentance as established by the leaders. If there weren't repurcussions for breaking them then the covenants made wouldn't mean much. But only those who have received their calling and election and deny it are in an unforgivable condition. Everyone else can always repent. 2
Tacenda Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 but under that definition, I broke my temple vows.....I also debated on boards against the LDS Church.They wont let me backThey will, pretty sure of it. The only thing stopping you is if you murdered someone or committed a serious crime. The church and HF are pretty forgiving, mark my words, they'll welcome you and will be excited for you to get baptised. 2
Popular Post teddyaware Posted March 12, 2015 Popular Post Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) I was very happy about coming home after 24 years...but reading your posts makes me wonder if I should even try.....makes me feel a sense of lost hope Before you begin to let random anonymous comments on an internet discussion board dissuade from coming back to Church, why don't you have a chat with your Bishop or Stake President and learn what it is they have to say on the matter. It's about as likely the sun won't rise tomorrow as it is to expect that either one of these men will tell you there is no hope. No hope? a lie from the devil. There are none beyond the reach of Christ's mercy except for those who don't want to be reached. Edited March 12, 2015 by teddyaware 7
Dgal Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 There is always hope. It's like others have stated, it's just there are consequence to breaking one's convenants. There has to be. But that doesn't preclude forgiveness. Talking to the bishop or the stake president is the way to go. They are the ones given authority by the Church to give you an idea of what to expect and what the repentance process will be before you can be re-baptized. 2
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 I always hear that our body is a temple, and then I look at my fat belly in the mirror everyday and get sad. 1
Dgal Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 I looked for an edit button, but couldn't figure out how to edit my last post.CountryBoy, think back to the time when you did go thru the temple for the first time and made those convenants. Don't you remember that the seriousness of the breaking those convenant was emphasized by part of the endowment ceremony? We are not to make convenants lightly. We are, after all, entering into a covenant with God, Himself. God won't be mock. That is why repentance, though very real and very attainable, isn't just a simple act, especially when one has been thru the temple. We dont emphasize that enough, IMO, to our youth.
Dgal Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 I always hear that our body is a temple, and then I look at my fat belly in the mirror everyday and get sad. 1 Cor. 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
JLHPROF Posted March 12, 2015 Author Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) That is why repentance, though very real and very attainable, isn't just a simple act, especially when one has been thru the temple. We dont emphasize that enough, IMO, to our youth. I feel the same way, although I don't want to seem harsh to those working through the process. It IS very much attainable. But God takes those broken covenants very seriously. I just wonder if we do. Edited March 12, 2015 by JLHPROF
Dgal Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 I feel the same way, although I don't want to seem harsh to those working through the process. It IS very much attainable. But God takes those broken covenants very seriously. I just wonder if we do.Yes, I don't want to be harsh either. Just honest. Repentance IS very much attainable.Yes, as well, God takes those broken covenants very seriously. Yes, don't loose hope. Repentance is very real. He need to talk with the bishop and most likely the stake president.
Yirgacheffe Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 I believe my statement about having a couple of younger brothers gave that away already...Not where I was going at all.
Yirgacheffe Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 I feel the same way, although I don't want to seem harsh to those working through the process. It IS very much attainable. But God takes those broken covenants very seriously. I just wonder if we do.More of the older son. 1
JLHPROF Posted March 12, 2015 Author Posted March 12, 2015 Not where I was going at all. Yeah I figured, but there's a rule against "Psychoanalyzing others" on this board.
JLHPROF Posted March 12, 2015 Author Posted March 12, 2015 More of the older son. Well, Christ was the original "Older Son". I like that label.
GingerRed Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 but under that definition, I broke my temple vows.....I also debated on boards against the LDS Church. They wont let me back Hi Country Boy! Hey...listen to those who know. You CAN come back. Do you know how much I admire someone who leaves the church and returns? My gosh that takes guts!! They often end up with stronger testimonies because they know whats its like to be without it! I myself am a convert. So I think I have sort of a bond with those who also know what its like to NOT have the church in my life. Remember you are a child of GOD!! HIS child!!! He LOVES you! It doesn't get any better than that! I would love to be a fly on the wall when you are asked someday to give a talk in Sacrament about all your trials and struggles and overcoming it all. What an inspiration you could be! I have many non member friends as well as close friends who left the church. I don't treat them any different than my LDS friends. I love them all the same. Heck my roommate isn't LDS! Yes I am a little sad for my friends who left. But I always hope they'll return too someday. You never know. 3
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