When People Leave...

[JLHPROF]

http://bycommonconsent.com/2015/03/10/grieving-the-leaving/

 

How do we respond when a family member or someone we are very close to leaves the Church?

 

This article takes a very loving approach to it.

 

I have many family members who have left the Church but I have a hard time being as loving as I should.  I have a couple of younger brothers who chose to leave, and I don't hold it against them and hope they will choose to return one day.

However, my mother left the Church, married an atheist and removed her garments (breaking at least two covenants).  I am not as positive with her as I am with my brothers.  It's ironic because she raised me to consider the breaking of temple covenants as an extremely serious sin, harder to repent of than most.

 

I think I find myself treating those who choose to break their covenants (esp. Temple) more harshly than I do those who weren't under a covenant.  I feel it is much more serious, but I wonder if the Church in general still does.

It's the old "perdition" doctrine - the higher you climb and then fall the harder it is to climb back.

In your opinion, is the breaking of temple covenants still considered as big a deal to your ability to repent and return as it used to be or has the Church become more lenient?  When we pray for people who do this to repent and return do we still recognize that it's harder and takes more than for a wayward youth for instance?

Edited March 10, 2015 by JLHPROF

[stemelbow]

When someone cannot accept the one who he/she has made the covenant with, then it's rather meaningless, no? I can't fault people who lose faith in God for thinking the promise they made to God is no more.

[Brian 2.0]

In your opinion, is the breaking of temple covenants still considered as big a deal to your ability to repent and return as it used to be or has the Church become more lenient?  When we pray for people who do this to repent and return do we still recognize that it's harder and takes more than for a wayward youth for instance?

 

How stringent has the church been?  If I decided to come back to church and put on my garments again (and I hadn't been committing adultery or anything like that) I don't think there would be much restrictions placed upon me.  Yes, I would have to probably be active and tithe paying for a certain amount of time before I got a temple recommend, but other than that, what would be done by the church?

[name]

Hi JLH,

 

I have many family members who have left the Church but I have a hard time being as loving as I should.

Why do you think you have a hard time being as loving as you should?

 

the higher you climb and then fall the harder it is to climb back.

Forgive me (I'm not LDS) but what is this "climbing" all about?

Is it something you do, on your own, personally, to earn something? (Salvation?)

 

When we pray for people who do this to repent and return do we still recognize that it's harder and takes more than for a wayward youth for instance?

Harder and takes more what?

Thanks in advance!

Edited March 10, 2015 by name

[bluebell]

I try to take the same approach when someone leaves the LDS church as I would want another to take when someone leaves their religion for the LDS church.

 

For example, a Catholic priest who left the priesthood to join the LDS church would be, if i understand correctly, breaking some serious covenants (from the Catholic perspective) that they made with God.  Being LDS, I believe that God is happy when such occurs because the man is leaving for a very good reason-to join Christ's church (no disrespect intended to any Catholic posters).

 

For that reason, when someone breaks temple covenants because they no longer believe in the truth claims of the LDS church or the covenants that they made in the temple, I don't see that any differently than when a Catholic priest breaks his covenants because he no longer believes in the truth claims of the Catholic church or that the covenants he made with God are in fact what God wants him to do.

 

Theologically I do believe there is a difference of course, but practically speaking, i don't think there is one.  LDS people don't want Catholics to treat a converted priest like he's going to hell because he joined our church.  We want them to be understanding and accepting of the priest's decision even if they don't agree.  

 

Since that's what I want from others, it's what i try to give back as well.

Edited March 10, 2015 by bluebell

[Buckeye]

A few principles:

 

1) Be humble and recognize other's agency. You may be "right" in the end, but so might they. Most likely, in the end none of us will be very comfortable saying "look, I was right all along."

2) Follow the example of Heavenly Father who knows and loves these people to a depth you do not. He sends rain upon the righteous and the wicked.

3) If you really believe in the justice of God, trust him enough to carry out his own word. Unless you have some special dispensation to judge (and very few in the church do) then do not "add to" whatever consequences may befall someone for their choices. Such efforts only demonstrate a lack of trust in God.

 

In the church we often discuss the problem of why bad things happen to good people. Perhaps the bigger dillema is why good things happen to people we deem unworthy - apostates, covenant breakers, former allies, Governor Boggs. Yet the Savior's injunction is crystal clear - return good for evil, pray for those who despitefully use you, have mercy if you ever hope to receive mercy yourself.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Buckeye

[Kate]

Of course anyone can repent and return...and what a joyful reunion when they do! However, one of the biggest reasons returning is harder for those who once had truth as their guide and made covenants in the temple is the loss of the Spirit. There is no doubt that as one slips into personal apostasy, the loss of the spirit causes loss of testimony, of knowledge, and of truth they gained with the Spirit. As in 2 Nephi 28:30 "For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have." When they lose that understanding and wisdom, they use their own understanding and interpretation of things to rationalize what they once knew to now be silly and untrue. They spend time validating their new-found understanding with negative proofs and anecdotes. This may not apply in every case, but generally speaking.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Kate

[name]

Hi Kate,

However, one of the biggest reasons returning is harder for those who once had truth as their guide and made covenants in the temple is the loss of the Spirit. There is no doubt that as one slips into personal apostasy, the loss of the spirit causes loss of testimony, of knowledge, and of truth they gained with the Spirit.

I'm confused.

The Holy Spirit only dwells in those people who belong to the LDS church?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Hi Kate,

I'm confused.

The Holy Spirit only dwells in those people who belong to the LDS church?

Yeah and?

[name]

Hi Mola,

Yeah and?

And nothing.

Thanks for the reply.

[Buckeye]

Hi Mola,

And nothing.

Thanks for the reply.

 

 

name, there is a common LDS teaching that the holy spirit may inspire and help non-members, but that something significantly more - we call it "the gift of the Holy Ghost" - is only given to confirmed members of the church. Another church teaching is that the "spirit leaves" when someone is engaged in something that offends it - say, watching porn. Sometimes jokingly, we say to kids who go out on dates "the spirit goes to bed at midnight" (or 10pm at BYU). I imagine Kate's thoughts are along some of these lines. Not that non-members can't be blessed by the spirit, but that members who leave give up that "something more" that they had.

[name]

Hi Buckeye,

name, there is a common LDS teaching that the holy spirit may inspire and help non-members, but that something significantly more - we call it "the gift of the Holy Ghost" - is only given to confirmed members of the church. Another church teaching is that the "spirit leaves" when someone is engaged in something that offends it - say, watching porn. Sometimes jokingly, we say to kids who go out on dates "the spirit goes to bed at midnight" (or 10pm at BYU). I imagine Kate's thoughts are along some of these lines. Not that non-members can't be blessed by the spirit, but that members who leave give up that "something more" that they had.

Thanks for the additional thoughts/perspective.

[JLHPROF]

Hi JLH,

 

Why do you think you have a hard time being as loving as you should?

Mortal weakness.

Forgive me (I'm not LDS) but what is this "climbing" all about?

Is it something you do, on your own, personally, to earn something? (Salvation?)

 In Mormonism we believe in progression.  The higher you progress, the further you can fall.  This is why Lucifer, one of the sons of the morning when he "apostatized" became the devil.  Someone in Mormonism once said it takes as many ordinances to make a devil as it does a God.

So someone who had progressed further and leaves is seen to have gone against more light and is thus under more condemnation.

Harder and takes more what?

 

Think of misdemeanor vs felony.  One requires a greater penalty if unrepented.  If repented, my question is should it take more repentance.

The greater the light sinned against, the greater the effort needed to return to God.

Thanks in advance!

[name]

Thanks JLH!

I appreciate you taking the time.

[JLHPROF]

I try to take the same approach when someone leaves the LDS church as I would want another to take when someone leaves their religion for the LDS church.

 

For example, a Catholic priest who left the priesthood to join the LDS church would be, if i understand correctly, breaking some serious covenants (from the Catholic perspective) that they made with God.  Being LDS, I believe that God is happy when such occurs because the man is leaving for a very good reason-to join Christ's church (no disrespect intended to any Catholic posters).

 

For that reason, when someone breaks temple covenants because they no longer believe in the truth claims of the LDS church or the covenants that they made in the temple, I don't see that any differently than when a Catholic priest breaks his covenants because he no longer believes in the truth claims of the Catholic church or that the covenants he made with God are in fact what God wants him to do.

 

Theologically I do believe there is a difference of course, but practically speaking, i don't think there is one.  LDS people don't want Catholics to treat a converted priest like he's going to hell because he joined our church.  We want them to be understanding and accepting of the priest's decision even if they don't agree.  

 

Since that's what I want from others, it's what i try to give back as well.

 

Thanks Bluebell, for the well thought out post as always!

 

I certainly agree with the approach, but doctrinally I have my challenges applying it.

If as members we believe the restored gospel to be true, then we have greater light than a Catholic priest.

Additionally an endowed member has not only made covenants with God but also received greater light than an unendowed member.

Now, my own mortal weaknesses make it a challenge for me to not look with more condemnation on someone who has thrown away greater light than on someone who has thrown away little.

 

I recognize the requirement from the Savior to forgive ALL men, but there are plenty of scriptures that talk about those who leave the greater light having a greater penance to return (if at all).  It is finding the ability to let God judge that where my doctrinal beliefs challenge me.

[ALarson]

I have a close family member who has left the church.  He is still a very spiritual person, so I understand the confusion when we as church members state that someone no longer has the spirit with them.  I actually do not like that phrase, but understand what is trying to be expressed.

 

One thing this family member has expressed to me is that church members should be aware that many of the things we believe about him are the exact same things he believes about us..

 

For example:

 

We believe he has been deceived.  Well, he believes we are being deceived.

We believe he just needs to study the scriptures, church teachings, etc., more.  He believes that we need to study more about our own church and it's history.

We believe he would have more happiness and peace in his life if he came back.  He states that he has never been happier or more at peace and he wishes we could feel as he does.

 

He also told me that he has no hatred or bitterness towards the church and most especially towards active church members.  He still has a great deal of love for the active members, but has stated that he does not feel the same love from them, and mainly feels he's judged harshly by them.

[name]

Hi ALarson,

I have a close family member who has left the church.  He is still a very spiritual person, so I understand the confusion when we as church members state that someone no longer has the spirit with them.  I actually do not like that phrase, but understand what is trying to be expressed.

 

One thing this family member has expressed to me is that church members should be aware that many of the things we believe about him are the exact same things he believes about us..

 

For example:

 

We believe he has been deceived.  Well, he believes we are being deceived.

We believe he just needs to study the scriptures, church teachings, etc., more.  He believes that we need to study more about our own church and it's history.

We believe he would have more happiness and peace in his life if he came back.  He states that he has never been happier or more at peace and he wishes we could feel as he does.

 

He also told me that he has no hatred or bitterness towards the church and most especially towards active church members.  He still has a great deal of love for the active members, but has stated that he does not feel the same love from them, and mainly feels he's judged harshly by them.

IMO - An exceptionally valuable and profound contribution!

[UtahTexan]

When I left in 1989...it was horrible.  My LDS friends all walked away......I was harassed.  I was told I had committed the unforgivable sin.  And that was just the start.

[bluebell]

Thanks Bluebell, for the well thought out post as always!

 

I certainly agree with the approach, but doctrinally I have my challenges applying it.

If as members we believe the restored gospel to be true, then we have greater light than a Catholic priest.

Additionally an endowed member has not only made covenants with God but also received greater light than an unendowed member.

Now, my own mortal weaknesses make it a challenge for me to not look with more condemnation on someone who has thrown away greater light than on someone who has thrown away little.

 

I recognize the requirement from the Savior to forgive ALL men, but there are plenty of scriptures that talk about those who leave the greater light having a greater penance to return (if at all).  It is finding the ability to let God judge that where my doctrinal beliefs challenge me.

 

I'm glad that i can sometimes make sense.  

 

As to the bolded part above, this is a trick that i use that helps me not to be judgmental when someone does something i don't think God is o.k. with (it's not the exact same thing your dealing with, but maybe you can make it work for you too).

 

When someone does something that i personally believe is not o.k. (but that otherwise has nothing to do with me and isn't really 'my business'), i tell myself "God must have given them permission to do that so i'm not going to worry about."

 

It doesn't have to be true (it doesn't even have to be possible because obviously some things God does not make exceptions for) it just has to keep me from being a self-righteous but otherwise ignorant goober.  Whether it's true or not it helps me to have more charity.

 

Doing that also has the added benefit of reminding me that sometimes God does grant exceptions or allowances or just flatly does things differently with someone else than He does with me, and since i rarely know the difference from the outside looking in i'd better be careful that i'm not castigating someone for something that God is completely o.k. with.

[Buckeye]

This may also help. Christ compared people to trees that bear varying amounts of fruit - some 30, some 60, some 100 fold. I believe that one of the ways God finds eternal joy is to focus on the fruit that children produce rather than what they do not. I have yet to meet someone in our out of the church that is not producing some good fruit. Take joy in that.

[JLHPROF]

When I left in 1989...it was horrible.  My LDS friends all walked away......I was harassed.  I was told I had committed the unforgivable sin.  And that was just the start.

 

That's unfortunate (not to mention doctrinally incorrect).

 

But perhaps you might be in a unique position to answer my question having left and now returning (if I remember your background correctly, and I apologize if I don't).

 

Do YOU feel like more is required to return to the Church after having broken previous covenants than would be required of someone who had never been under the same covenants or as many covenants?

[bluebell]

When I left in 1989...it was horrible.  My LDS friends all walked away......I was harassed.  I was told I had committed the unforgivable sin.  And that was just the start.

 

Members sometimes take someone leaving the LDS church personally-like that person is saying to them "YOU are wrong in what you believe!"  We become defensive and a lot of times that does not look pretty when it shows itself.

 

A person who is truly secure in their own choices does not care at all if someone else disagrees with them, but unfortunately most people are not that secure, religiously or otherwise.

 

I'm sorry your friends did not handle it well when you left.

[ALarson]

When I left in 1989...it was horrible.  My LDS friends all walked away......I was harassed.  I was told I had committed the unforgivable sin.  And that was just the start.

I'm sorry this happened to you.

 

I can relate as I went inactive for a few years and felt like members were really angry with me.  I wasn't prepared for that.  It was like I'd personally betrayed them.  I was struggling with new church history information (new for me) and just had to work through it.  I still have a few issues, but who doesn't, right?

[Daniel2]

When someone cannot accept the one who he/she has made the covenant with, then it's rather meaningless, no? I can't fault people who lose faith in God for thinking the promise they made to God is no more.

Great post, Stem. A thoughful approach.

When I stopped believing in god as a personage, the covenants made in the endowment were non-binding.

It's somewhat like making a childhood promise to Santa that you'll believe in and leave him cookies your entire life, and then being committed to follow through on that promise till old age. What sense would there be to deride a person for failing to follow through on such a promise?

[CV75]

How do we respond when a family member or someone we are very close to leaves the Church?

 

In your opinion, is the breaking of temple covenants still considered as big a deal to your ability to repent and return as it used to be or has the Church become more lenient?  When we pray for people who do this to repent and return do we still recognize that it's harder and takes more than for a wayward youth for instance?

I think we need to relate to any ex-member on the basis of the light that they have to share with us and not on their particular sins, no matter how severe they may be. If they are enticing us to commit sin, then we need to be wary and savvy, but we can always relate positively on the light that we have in common.

 

We can find something honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and of doing good, virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy in anyone if we humble enough to see the Lord moving in His majesty among all His creations. I think we can also find some spark of intelligence; wisdom, truth, light, mercy and justice in anyone. If we do that, we do not judge or contend with them. When we pray for them, we do so in faith no matter how dark the hour and how much light they need before they sense the need to repent--this can be the case with matters "large" or "small."

 

I think it has to do with being wise as serpents and harmless as doves. I don’t think we’d ever want to block the light from them, or block our light from them, or block out any light from them that we might recognize the Lord in all things.

 

Ex-members may no longer have the Gift of the Holy Ghost, but they, like every living person, has the Light of Christ in some measure, which is no small thing.

 

Here’s a good article: https://www.lds.org/ensign/2005/04/the-light-of-christ?lang=eng

Edited March 10, 2015 by CV75