Dark Night Of The Soul

[HappyJackWagon]

Check out this new podcast from DBMormon. It is very faith promoting and inspiring for those experiencing a faith transition. It's a discussion about how a faith transition, though difficult, may be less about how someone's faith is broken and more about how God is calling them to a deeper faith.

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2015/02/dark-night-of-the-soul/

[JLHPROF]

That's one of my favorite Loreena McKennitt songs (based on the poem by St. John of the Cross)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MclLF473XtA

(I need someone to show me how to embed youtube videos here)

Edited February 23, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Uncle Dale]

That's one of my favorite Loreena McKennitt songs (based on the poem by St. John of the Cross)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MclLF473XtA

(I need someone to show me how to embed youtube videos here)

 

If you dig a little deeper, I'm sure you'll find that the realizations

coming out of a "Dark Night of the Soul" amount to something

more than a poem, and that an entire book by the Carmelite

John (along with several others) convey a much larger message

than "faith transition."

 

Getting deep into the texts left by St. John of the Cross (and

by his contemporary, St. Theresa of Avila) the Latter Day Saint

might be surprised to discover hints of theosis -- not exactly

the eternal progression variety of man-into-God teachings,

but nevertheless something worth pondering.

 

The "Dark Night" has a mystical side. A realization not easily

put into words, but best communicated by shadowy, cloudy

language. Another, earlier, writer whose thoughts appear

somewhat akin to those of saints John and Theresa composed

a volume entitled "The Cloud of Unknowing."

 

Again, the "cloud" is not merely a faith crisis, nor faith transition,

but a setting aside of intellectual "knowing" for a leap of faith 

into what might be called perfect knowing, or godly knowing,

or Divine Realization.

 

A dark night, which might entail initial fear, doubt, anguish,

and even a temporary suspension of faith -- only to result

in the very much "faith promoting" writings of such a John.

 

UD

[JLHPROF]

If you dig a little deeper, I'm sure you'll find that the realizations

coming out of a "Dark Night of the Soul" amount to something

more than a poem, and that an entire book by the Carmelite

John (along with several others) convey a much larger message

than "faith transition."

 

Getting deep into the texts left by St. John of the Cross (and

by his contemporary, St. Theresa of Avila) the Latter Day Saint

might be surprised to discover hints of theosis -- not exactly

the eternal progression variety of man-into-God teachings,

but nevertheless something worth pondering.

 

The "Dark Night" has a mystical side. A realization not easily

put into words, but best communicated by shadowy, cloudy

language. Another, earlier, writer whose thoughts appear

somewhat akin to those of saints John and Theresa composed

a volume entitled "The Cloud of Unknowing."

 

Again, the "cloud" is not merely a faith crisis, nor faith transition,

but a setting aside of intellectual "knowing" for a leap of faith 

into what might be called perfect knowing, or godly knowing,

or Divine Realization.

 

A dark night, which might entail initial fear, doubt, anguish,

and even a temporary suspension of faith -- only to result

in the very much "faith promoting" writings of such a John.

 

UD

 

That's some serious academia...I'm certainly not as familiar with medieval saints and early Christian texts as you are.

Thank you for the info!

[rockpond]

Check out this new podcast from DBMormon. It is very faith promoting and inspiring for those experiencing a faith transition. It's a discussion about how a faith transition, though difficult, may be less about how someone's faith is broken and more about how God is calling them to a deeper faith.

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2015/02/dark-night-of-the-soul/

 

Thanks for letting us know.  I love Bill's podcasts -- I've downloaded this for my drive home today.

[Robert F. Smith]

 President David O. McKay said:

 

“I think we pay too little attention to the value of meditation, a principle of devotion. … Meditation is the language of the soul. It is defined as ‘a form of private devotion or spiritual exercise, consisting in deep, continued reflection on some religious theme.’ Meditation is a form of prayer. …

 

“Meditation is one of the most secret, most sacred doors through which we pass into the presence of the Lord” (“Consciousness of God: Supreme Goal of Life,”Improvement Era, June 1967, pp. 80–82, and Man May Know for Himself, compiler Clare Middlemiss [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1969], pp. 22–23).]

 

The scholars who have deeply analyzed the meditative sequence in common with San Juan de la Cruz, Santa Teresa d'Avila, and so many other Christian and non-Christian mystics, have found that it mimics the ancient mystery religion sequence of initiation, as well as the sequence so well known to LDS temple goers.  That initiatory sequence is found in the Bible as well as in the Book of Mormon, and the late Hugh Nibley took particular pleasure in presenting that sequence from a variety of sources in his Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri: An Egyptian Endowment, 1st ed. (SLC: Deseret Book, 1975); 2nd ed., CWHN XVI (Provo: FARMS/SLC: Deseret Book, 2005).  Even the chapter headings are on point and leave little to the imagination!!

[Uncle Dale]

 

 President David O. McKay said:

 

“I think we pay too little attention to the value of meditation, a principle of devotion. … Meditation is the language of the soul. It is defined as ‘a form of private devotion or spiritual exercise, consisting in deep, continued reflection on some religious theme.’ Meditation is a form of prayer. …

 

“Meditation is one of the most secret, most sacred doors through which we pass into the presence of the Lord” (“Consciousness of God: Supreme Goal of Life,”Improvement Era, June 1967, pp. 80–82, and Man May Know for Himself, compiler Clare Middlemiss [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1969], pp. 22–23).]

 

The scholars who have deeply analyzed the meditative sequence in common with San Juan de la Cruz, Santa Teresa d'Avila, and so many other Christian and non-Christian mystics, have found that it mimics the ancient mystery religion sequence of initiation, as well as the sequence so well known to LDS temple goers.  That initiatory sequence is found in the Bible as well as in the Book of Mormon, and the late Hugh Nibley took particular pleasure in presenting that sequence from a variety of sources in his Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri: An Egyptian Endowment, 1st ed. (SLC: Deseret Book, 1975); 2nd ed., CWHN XVI (Provo: FARMS/SLC: Deseret Book, 2005).  Even the chapter headings are on point and leave little to the imagination!!

 

 

Every Read Elder McConkie's counsel regarding faithful Mormons and

mysticism? You have to go to the first edition of the Great Black Book,

to get the full-blown doctrine -- but I can sum it up in a word: -- Never!

 

Then again, the good Apostle was wrong about dark-skinned people,

so he may have been wrong about Francis de Sales and Meister Eckhart

as well.

 

UD

[Robert F. Smith]

Every Read Elder McConkie's counsel regarding faithful Mormons and

mysticism? You have to go to the first edition of the Great Black Book,

to get the full-blown doctrine -- but I can sum it up in a word: -- Never!

...........................................................

He may have had in mind what some call neo-mysticism, as discussed, for example, by Bill Hamblin in his "The Incoherence of Neomysticism," at https://player.fm/series/thinking-aloud-6087 .

See also

Mark Edward Koltko-Rivera at https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/070-13-19.pdf .

Hugh Nibley, “Prophets and Mystics,” chapter 12 in his The World and the Prophets

Kevin Christensen, “A Model of Mormon Spiritual Experience,” Feb 26, 2011, online at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22100469/model_of_experience.pdf .

Helmer Ringgren, “Mysticism,” in D. Freedman, ed., Anchor Bible Dictionary, 6 vols. (Doubleday, 1992), IV:945-946.

Marvin W. Meyer, “Mystery Religions,” in D. Freedman, ed., Anchor Bible Dictionary, IV:941-945.

Hugh M. Riley, Christian Initiation: A Comparative Study in the Mystagogical Writings of Cyril of Jerusalem, John Chrysostom, Theodore of Mopsuestia and Ambrose of Milan (Wash., D.C., 1974).

Gershom Scholem, Major Trends in Jewish Mysticism (NY: Schocken, 1954), online at http://www2.trincoll.edu/~kiener/RELG308_Scholem_MTJM_Lecture1.pdf .

 

Edited February 28, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[mfbukowski]

Every Read Elder McConkie's counsel regarding faithful Mormons and

mysticism? You have to go to the first edition of the Great Black Book,

to get the full-blown doctrine -- but I can sum it up in a word: -- Never!

 

Then again, the good Apostle was wrong about dark-skinned people,

so he may have been wrong about Francis de Sales and Meister Eckhart

as well.

 

UD

We do not believe in the infallibility of prophets.

[Uncle Dale]

We do not believe in the infallibility of prophets.

 

Then why bother to follow their counsel, in the first place?

 

If Brigham Young would have said to your great grandpa:

"Thus saith the Lord -- thou art called to a three year

mission in Liverpool," I assume that the recalcitrant 

ancestor could have just replied:

 

"Look, her, Briggy, old chap -- I don't believe in the

infallibility of prophets, and I'm off to do my spring

planting instead..."

 

I'm sure President Young would have smiled, and

said: "You make a good point there, son. Let me

know if I can send over some brothers to help you."

 

 

UD

 

In short, there's simply not

A more congenial spot

For happy ever-aftering...

[mfbukowski]

An odd question.

 

Do you only follow the advice of infallible people?

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

Edited February 26, 2015 by mfbukowski

[Uncle Dale]

An odd question.

 

Do you only follow the advice of infallible people?

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

 

 

Says in the D&C that Joseph Smith's revelations should be accepted

as the commandments of God. Not sure if Eloheim is infallible.

 

Then again -- comparing the 1833 BoC chapters, with the 1835 D&C

sections, it looks like either God made a lot of mistakes, or the Mormons

themselves printed the wrong words (requiring a whole lot of changes).

 

But, you are right.

 

A "Thus saith the Lord..." from the President of the High Priesthood of

either of the latter day churches wouldn't necessarily strike me as

anything so infallible that I could not safely ignore it.

 

I do get the feeling that the author of "Mormon Doctrine" felt that he

was offering more than "advice" to his readers -- and that he was

dead serious in his warnings against RCC mysticism.

 

If you know of any higher authorities in the CofJCofLDS who ever

objected to (or corrected) his articulation of Mormon doctrine

concerning Christian mysticism, I'd be happy to read the stuff.

 

On the other hand, he gracefully ate crow when the time came to

support Pres. Kimball in the allowance of members of all skin

colors into the Temple (and their males into ordained ministry).

So, if the good Apostle could be wrong about the Curse of Cain,

then I suppose he could be equally wrong in condemning the

perfection of contemplation and the life of prayer for religious.

 

Oh well ... "Dark Night" and "Interior Castles" were on my required

reading list in the night course at Pontifical College Josephinum --

but we interlopers didn't have to peruse the Latin versions.

 

 

UD

 

Discalced Carmelites, eh? How on earth could they shake

the dust of their sandals off, in cursing a village that would

not accept the gospel?

Edited February 26, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[DBMormon]

Thanks for the plug.  Some have said it is my best episode yet!!!  that said they haven't heard my interview w/ D. Michael Quinn which releases in a few months

Edited February 26, 2015 by DBMormon

[HappyJackWagon]

A few months? That's a long time to wait.

How long does it take you to do the post production?

[DBMormon]

no time at all.  It is in the que.  there are currently like 43 episodes recorded but not yet released.  One will release per week.  It is not Bro. Quinn's turn yet.  I race like crazy during the school year so I can be podcast free during the summer and enjoy more time with family.

[mfbukowski]

Says in the D&C that Joseph Smith's revelations should be accepted

as the commandments of God. Not sure if Eloheim is infallible.

 

Then again -- comparing the 1833 BoC chapters, with the 1835 D&C

sections, it looks like either God made a lot of mistakes, or the Mormons

themselves printed the wrong words (requiring a whole lot of changes).

 

But, you are right.

 

A "Thus saith the Lord..." from the President of the High Priesthood of

either of the latter day churches wouldn't necessarily strike me as

anything so infallible that I could not safely ignore it.

 

I do get the feeling that the author of "Mormon Doctrine" felt that he

was offering more than "advice" to his readers -- and that he was

dead serious in his warnings against RCC mysticism.

 

If you know of any higher authorities in the CofJCofLDS who ever

objected to (or corrected) his articulation of Mormon doctrine

concerning Christian mysticism, I'd be happy to read the stuff.

 

On the other hand, he gracefully ate crow when the time came to

support Pres. Kimball in the allowance of members of all skin

colors into the Temple (and their males into ordained ministry).

So, if the good Apostle could be wrong about the Curse of Cain,

then I suppose he could be equally wrong in condemning the

perfection of contemplation and the life of prayer for religious.

 

Oh well ... "Dark Night" and "Interior Castles" were on my required

reading list in the night course at Pontifical College Josephinum --

but we interlopers didn't have to peruse the Latin versions.

 

 

UD

 

Discalced Carmelites, eh? How on earth could they shake

the dust of their sandals off, in cursing a village that would

not accept the gospel?

This is from a book I would HIGHLY recommend- from Teryl Givens- complete with link to Amazon.  http://www.amazon.com/Wrestling-Angel-Foundations-Thought-Humanity/dp/0199794928

This is from pages 14-16

 

For 15 bucks you can download the free Kindle app and read it on your PC, and you too can be an instant expert on Mormonism. 

 

A new direction in church orthodoxy was more clearly signaled in the 1930s. Roberts and Talmage died in this decade (Widtsoe would pass in 1952); the staunchly conservative and highly influential J. Reuben Clark was called into the First Presidency of the church in 1933. Higher Criticism dates back to the eighteenth century (or earlier, by some definitions), but it produced mid-twentieth-century reverberations that appear to have impacted Mormon leadership in particularly powerful ways. The Fundamentalist-Modernist Controversy of the 1920s and ’30s marked a critical juncture in the split of American Presbyterians into liberal and conservative wings, but the strife and division spread throughout Protestantism. More locally, the LDS Church experimented with sending several of its educators to study theology at the University of Chicago in the 1920s. When some of the Chicago program alumni returned to the church’s university, espousing their newly acquired liberal viewpoints, conservatives in the LDS hierarchy became reactionary. 45 There followed a period of retrenchment, of growing unease with worldly learning and with intellectualism generally. The synthesis of secular and spiritual that was the hallmark of the School of the Prophets was challenged in Clark’s landmark address to church educators, wherein he warned that “the things of the natural world will not explain the things of the spiritual world; that the things of the spiritual world cannot be understood or comprehended by the things of the natural world; that you cannot rationalize the things of the spirit.” Clark warned about “special training” in the academy and the infiltration into church education of the “most modern views” in particular. 46 Over the next decades, two apostles would assume dominant influence over the articulation of Mormon doctrine: Joseph Fielding Smith and his son-in-law Bruce R. McConkie. Smith expressed alarm over the “dangers lurking in modern thought,” 47 and forcefully argued for a literal reading of scripture that was incompatible with modern science. His most controversial contribution, Man: His Origin and Destiny, was quickly withdrawn as a training manual soon after its introduction, but its authoritative tone and authorship lent it great influence. Much more enduring in its impact was a volume published by McConkie in 1958, entitled simply Mormon Doctrine. It was, the author said, “the first major attempt to digest, explain, and analyze all of the important doctrines of the kingdom … . [T] he first extensive compendium of the whole gospel— the first attempt to publish an encyclopedic commentary covering the whole field of revealed religion.” 48 Two apostles assigned to review the book for church president David O. McKay recommended over 1,000 corrections, and McKay suspended its republication “even in a corrected form.” 49 Nevertheless, after making several changes, McConkie republished his book in 1966, and the church’s publisher marketed the immensely influential title all the way until 2010. Official reservations notwithstanding, church publications have quoted from the book prolifically in lesson manuals and teaching materials. Though a member of the First Council of the Seventy (just below the president and apostles in authority) at the time of Mormon Doctrine’s publication, after his 1972 call to the Q uorum of the Twelve Apostles, McConkie came to be considered by the general church membership as the church’s foremost scriptural scholar and theological expert. The book’s enduring success, in spite of its contested authority, is perhaps a testament to the human proclivity for dogma. Mormonism has no creed. But at McConkie’s hands, Mormon doctrine was authoritatively declared, neatly encapsulated, unambiguously defined, and alphabetically arranged. But it also revealed another fact, and that was the near total absence of a competing model. Pratt’s 1855 Key to Theology was by 1958 an archaic work, and Talmage’s 1899 Articles of Faith made no attempt to be comprehensive (“ grace” does not even appear in the index). In this vacuum, McConkie, disapproving review committee notwithstanding, did far more to shape popular conceptions of Mormon teaching than any figure of the twentieth century’s second half, achieving what one scholar calls a “near-canonical status that McKay had fought unsuccessfully to avoid.” 50 It may be no coincidence that in the immediate aftermath of the controversial books by Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce McConkie, the church moved to centralize and coordinate all church programs and curricula in a massive “correlation program,” under the leadership of Harold B. Lee.

Edited February 26, 2015 by mfbukowski

[stemelbow]

no time at all.  It is in the que.  there are currently like 43 episodes recorded but not yet released.  One will release per week.  It is not Bro. Quinn's turn yet.  I race like crazy during the school year so I can be podcast free during the summer and enjoy more time with family.

Why release one per week then? Why not release them all? Something's holding it up I assume.

[Uncle Dale]

 

 

...the church’s publisher marketed the immensely influential title all the way until 2010..

 

 

Growing up in Idaho Falls, Idaho -- in an exclusively

LDS neighborhood -- I spent a couple of years as

the local collector of monthly payments for the

Post-Register -- a job that took me into numerous

homes, at least as far as their front rooms.

 

In 1958-59 hardly any LDS living rooms exhibited

anything even remotely resembling a family library.

A few residences had cheap sets of the type of

encyclopedias peddled door-to-door at discount

prices. Copies of something resembling TV-Guide

were frequently seen. Maybe, here and there an

issue of "Improvement Era" or a cookbook might

be noticed among the family possessions. I never

once saw a Book of Mormon -- though perhaps a

Bible or two were spotted.

 

But... as early as 1959, I'd bet that 3 out of 10 Mormon

households had McConkie's big black book -- sometimes

lying open on a table -- more likely set atop the fireplace

mantle, next to Aunt Agatha's frowning framed portrait.

 

Everybody knew what it was. When I was called into the

school principal's office (a hall monitor had reported my

saying a bad word, or some such infraction) I could see

the spine of "Mormon Doctrine" poised alongside the

school's past annuals, and a Webster's.

 

If it was printed there -- and it disagreed with what the

Bishop or a visiting Stake President said from the lectern,

then they were obviously wrong -- and the Apostle right.

 

I have the sneaking hunch that the Pioneer Bookshop gave

copies away gratis, to Saints too poor or too reluctant to

part with the $5 cover price.

 

Oh well...

 

UD

[DBMormon]

Why release one per week then? Why not release them all? Something's holding it up I assume.

no, If I released them all then there would be nothing to look forward to.  One a week is the best formula though I may even go to one every other week next year

[HappyJackWagon]

no, If I released them all then there would be nothing to look forward to.  One a week is the best formula though I may even go to one every other week next year

My 2 cents. Stick with 1 per week. It keeps the podcast top of mind as part of a routine. Every 2 weeks is too long and I find that I don't often check up on the podcasts that are less frequent. For example, I enjoy Mormon Matters but the inconsistency is frustrating so I don't check in on it as much as I otherwise would.

[stemelbow]

no, If I released them all then there would be nothing to look forward to.  One a week is the best formula though I may even go to one every other week next year

Well do whatever works best, I guess. But it's no fun listening to old stuff if something discussed has been seen differently in the time between recording and playing. Can you tell us when they were recorded, like as part of the explanation of it?

I didn't realize you podcasters are holding out on us.

Edited February 26, 2015 by stemelbow

[Tacenda]

Well do whatever works best, I guess. But it's no fun listening to old stuff if something discussed has been seen differently in the time between recording and playing. Can you tell us when they were recorded, like as part of the explanation of it?

I didn't realize you podcasters are holding out on us.

It sounds like you and Happy Jackwagon and I could be considered Mormon podcast junkies!

[rodheadlee]

Darkness Darkness Take away the Pain of Knowing

 

Edited February 27, 2015 by rodheadlee

[ALarson]

Thanks for the plug.  Some have said it is my best episode yet!!!  that said they haven't heard my interview w/ D. Michael Quinn which releases in a few months

Does Quinn discuss his new book on church finances?  Did he give a release date?

[DBMormon]

Does Quinn discuss his new book on church finances?  Did he give a release date?

He did - it is in the center of dialogue magazine (maybe it was Sunstone)

release date August though he said perhaps later like december