Stone holm Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 We know that intelligences always existed, what is the difference between intelligences and spirits?
Kaleb Webb Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 My understanding is that intelligences are unorganized spirits, but It's been a while since I looked into it. 1
Stone holm Posted January 19, 2015 Author Posted January 19, 2015 My understanding is that intelligences are unorganized spirits, but It's been a while since I looked into it.You mean like spirits with ADHD or someting? 1
Kaleb Webb Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 More like the material that is used to create spirits
Stone holm Posted January 19, 2015 Author Posted January 19, 2015 More like the material that is used to create spiritsYeah, I was just teasing, so are more than one intelligence used in creating a Spirit?
Kaleb Webb Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Just one per spirit, I think. D&C 93 and some of Joseph Smith's teachings toward the end of his life would explain it better
LOSTONE Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Intelligences and Spirits are 2 separate entities. Intelligence is knowledge where as a spirit is a personality or soul. A spirit can lack intelligence, but can intelligence lack a spirit? 1
Calm Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) LDS have a definition of intelligence that is different than most, this type of intelligence is a material, contains something akin to atoms, may be an element of some sort. Others talk about it as an energy, such as the Light of Christ. Many are certain they know exactly what it is, since I don't believe we understand how matter and energy and space and time interact even if we can see some results of that interaction, I am not certain at all. All I know as "Truth" is that I have a body given to me by my parents through the agency given them by God, a spirit given to me by my heavenly parents and I believe I was an eternal intelligent entity with identity of some sort before that and not just existing as eternal building blocks of intelligent that God put together (because surely that would me that he created my personality by picking and choosing my attributes and thus I am his creation, his programmed creature. I always flash back to good old Milton and the line "oops, too much!": Narrator: On top of old Horror Hill, in a secret laboratory, Professor Weirdo and Count Kook were in their monstrous glory.Professor Weirdo: # Six drops of The Essence of Terror, / Five drops of Sinister Sauce. #Count Kook: # When the stirring's done, may I lick the spoon? #Professor Weirdo: # Of course! A-ha! Of course! / Now for the tincture of tenderness, / But I must use only a touch. / For without a touch of tenderness, / It might destroy me! #[Kook accidentally knocks Weirdo's arm]Professor Weirdo: # Oops! Too much! / Better hold your breath; / It's starting to tick! #Count Kook: # Better hold my hand; / I'm feeling sick! #[the monster arises]Milton The Monster: Hello, Daddy!Professor Weirdo: # What have I done? #Milton The Monster: # I'm Milton, your brand new son! # http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058826/quotes There are two thoughts of belief I am aware of in the faith…one is that our spirits are our first real identity and they are created by God taking various intelligence building blocks to organize into a spirit. Another is that we were already entities formed of intelligent matter that were then organized with spiritual bodies, a different form of matter and then with mortal physical bodies and finally will be immortal physical bodies (whether this is different form of element or only a condition that is attached to the same elements used in our physical bodies, I don't believe we know, but I think most interpret LDS teaching as the second due to the belief that we are raised with all the atoms and molecules we died with in our bodies…which I don't believe as it doesn't make sense to me since mankind's bodies have been decomposing for a very long time and a lot of those atoms were present in more than one human body when it died…so which one do they belong to and what do the others do who don't get it?) Edited January 19, 2015 by calmoriah
Calm Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) We use "intelligence" in several ways and it may be confusing, especially if some people assume the word means the same thing for each use….such as: https://www.lds.org/youth/video/the-glory-of-god-is-intelligence?lang=eng Seeking learning is a lifelong pursuit and one that increases our ability to serve the Lord.One of the primary purposes of mortality is to learn—to gain knowledge and intelligence. Doctrine and Covenants 93:36 states, “The glory of God is intelligence.” You might think intelligence means being gifted in academic work, but intelligence also means applying the knowledge we obtain for righteous purposes. https://www.lds.org/liahona/2007/10/the-glory-of-god-is-intelligence?lang=eng . Intelligence (the light of truth) has always existed and cannot be created. https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-instructors-guide-religion-324-325/the-glory-of-god-is-intelligence-lesson-37-section-93?lang=eng (1981) This striking view of each human’s potential future was accompanied by revealed teachings on humanity’s past. As Joseph Smith continued to receive revelations, he learned that the light or intelligence at the core of each human soul “was not created or made, neither indeed can be.” God is the Father of each human spirit, and because only “spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy,” He presented a plan for human beings to receive physical bodies and progress through their mortal experience toward a fulness of joy. Earthly birth, then, is not the beginning of an individual’s life: “Man was also in the beginning with God.”31Likewise, Joseph Smith taught that the material world has eternal roots, fully repudiating the concept of creation ex nihilo. “Earth, water &c—all these had their existence in an elementary State from Eternity,” he said in an 1839 sermon.32 God organized the universe out of existing elements.https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng&query=intelligence Intelligence has several meanings, three of which are: (1) It is the light of truth which gives life and light to all things in the universe. It has always existed. (2) The word intelligences may also refer to spirit children of God. (3) The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/intelligence-intelligences?lang=eng Edited January 19, 2015 by calmoriah
Freedom Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 The doctrine is not clear and many assumptions prevail. I am not convinced that there is a difference between an intelligence and a spirit. To me it is like the difference between being a son and a brother. Two titles for the same person. We require more light and truth on the matter. 1
LOSTONE Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 The doctrine is not clear and many assumptions prevail. I am not convinced that there is a difference between an intelligence and a spirit. To me it is like the difference between being a son and a brother. Two titles for the same person. We require more light and truth on the matter. I disagree with your remark “...To me it is like the difference between being a son and a brother. Two titles for the same person. ...” A son can not always be a brother and a spirit can not always be intelligent. If I only have one child and that is a boy, he is a son, not a brother. So as to a spirit is, but not necessarily intelligent. A spirit is a personality and intelligence is knowledge. There is a clear difference between the two and they don’t necessarily have to combine into one of the same.
Nofear Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Intelligent matter is uncreate and has always existed. It defies my understanding of reality for a complex entity with component parts to have always existed. Therefore, I assume that intelligent matter, self-existent, is simple and unorganized. My understanding is that what we call a spirit is a body (of spirit matter) that houses the uncreate intelligent matter. A spirit body is complex and created/organized. 2
Stone holm Posted January 19, 2015 Author Posted January 19, 2015 Just one per spirit, I think. D&C 93 and some of Joseph Smith's teachings toward the end of his life would explain it betterI am not sure that all of the early Prophets of the Restoration can necessarily be read that way.
CV75 Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 We know that intelligences always existed, what is the difference between intelligences and spirits?D&C 93 indicates that intelligence and spirit are so integrated--not only with each other but with light, truth, life, intelligence, power, glory and oneness with the Father--that using the intelligence, spirit, light, truth, life, power, glory and oneness that we possess to tease them apart and examine their differences would render any interpretation less than “a fullness” (if not meaningless). The two are often used synonymously, and as in Abraham 3, indicate only the stages of grace in the form of advancement to new estates granted to the children of Heavenly Father. We can always exist, and “exist before” in different stages or estates, and still be “gnolaum, or eternal.” “For man is spirit” no matter what, and our only frame of reference is being just that. 1
JLHPROF Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 In my opinion, intelligence is that spark of truth and light (glory of God is intelligence - truth and light), and the knowledge referred to is self awareness. It is neither created nor can be. Then just as spirits are placed in physical bodies, intelligences are placed in spirit bodies. Intelligence -> gained a spirit body in pre-mortality -> Spirit -> gained a physical body in mortality -> Soul (body + spirit) -> gains a resurrected glorious body in the resurrection. At least that's my opinion. 2
CV75 Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 So will my cat progress in his next life?I think he will join the other beasts "in their destined order or sphere of creation, in the enjoyment of their eternal felicity." 1
JAHS Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Sometimes the term "intelligence" is used to describe the spirit body, "Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born."(Abraham 3:22-23) These scriptures appear to equate intelligences with spirits, which God did create. Interesting that he said he stood among those intelligences that were spirits; as if there were also intelligences that were not yet spirits. At other times it is used to describe the eternal individual entity before spirit birth which cannot be created: "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be." (D&C 93:29) Elder Joseph Fielding Smith said in 1936:"Some of our writers have endeavored to explain what an intelligence is, but to do so is futile, for we have never been given any insight into this matter beyond what the Lord has fragmentarily revealed. We know, however, that there is something called intelligence which always existed. It is the real eternal part of man, which was not created or made. This intelligence combined with the spirit constitutes a spiritual identity or individual." (Smith, Joseph Fielding. Progress of Man. Salt Lake City, 1936)
Nofear Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 The Encyclopedia of Mormonism article on Intelligences does a decent job of presenting some of the various perspectives on the subject. In the end, however we are left with this: The question of whether prespirit intelligence had individual identity and consciousness remains unanswered. Elder Joseph Fielding Smith gave this caution in 1936: Some of our writers have endeavored to explain what an intelligence is, but to do so is futile, for we have never been given any insight into this matter beyond what the Lord has fragmentarily revealed. (Encyclopedia of Mormonism article on Intelligences)
janderich Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 There are so many terms and they are used in so many ways. The core of this doctrine of course comes from Joseph himself in the King Follett discourse. Let me just take a stroll through it to see if I can glean any truth (though perhaps not clarity). Joseph says he will touch on a subject calculated to exalt man, "namely, the soul - the mind of man - the immortal spirit." He uses these three words all together to describe what we might call intelligence. Is he trying to get at the core of who we are? He further digs to distinguishes between the mortal and immortal part of the mind, "I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man - the immortal part, because it has no beginning." Our mortal mind has a beginning, but there is an immortal part that never had a beginning. Perhaps this is what others have called consciousness. He further states, "The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself." Is there a portion of the mind of man that is co-equal (not simply co-eternal) with God? The word co-equal is used multiple times in the discourse. Joseph adds further weight to this interpretation by saying, "But if I am right I might with boldness proclaim from the housetops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself." It appears to me that he links the core of man's being with God. If not, why then would he suggest that to create the spirit of man God would have to create himself? He again says, "Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it." He has now clearly linked the terms "a spirit" with "intelligence". By using the word "intelligence here does he mean a self knowing entity? Last we might review his thoughts about the growth of intelligences. He says, "He [God] has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits." We are weaker than God. But we are exalted with him, or as it is written, "with himself". There you have it. Much food for thought.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 There is something almost Neoplatonic about this tripartite division of the cosmos, nature, and life into (1) coeternal intelligence, along with organized (2) spirit, and (3) body. The Renaissance magi used the terms Intellectus, Spiritus, and Materia = intellect, soul, and body, and spoke of spirit as being composed of a fine substance. See F. Yates, Giordano Bruno; Brooke, The Refiner's Fire; Joseph Smith, "There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter but is more fine or pure and can only be discerned by purer eyes. We can’t see it but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter” (William Clayton Journal, May 17, 1843; D&C 131:7-; “the elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fullness of joy” (D&C 93:33). Intelligence is in an entirely different category from the material sources of spirit and body, almost constituting a philosophical idea or essence. As Joseph said, “Intelligence, or the light of truth was not created or made, neither indeed can be” (D&C 93:29), but it could certainly be embodied.
Stone holm Posted January 20, 2015 Author Posted January 20, 2015 There are so many terms and they are used in so many ways. The core of this doctrine of course comes from Joseph himself in the King Follett discourse. Let me just take a stroll through it to see if I can glean any truth (though perhaps not clarity). Joseph says he will touch on a subject calculated to exalt man, "namely, the soul - the mind of man - the immortal spirit." He uses these three words all together to describe what we might call intelligence. Is he trying to get at the core of who we are? He further digs to distinguishes between the mortal and immortal part of the mind, "I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man - the immortal part, because it has no beginning." Our mortal mind has a beginning, but there is an immortal part that never had a beginning. Perhaps this is what others have called consciousness. He further states, "The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself." Is there a portion of the mind of man that is co-equal (not simply co-eternal) with God? The word co-equal is used multiple times in the discourse. Joseph adds further weight to this interpretation by saying, "But if I am right I might with boldness proclaim from the housetops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself." It appears to me that he links the core of man's being with God. If not, why then would he suggest that to create the spirit of man God would have to create himself? He again says, "Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it." He has now clearly linked the terms "a spirit" with "intelligence". By using the word "intelligence here does he mean a self knowing entity? Last we might review his thoughts about the growth of intelligences. He says, "He [God] has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits." We are weaker than God. But we are exalted with him, or as it is written, "with himself". There you have it. Much food for thought.Confess, I have never understood the point of the ring sermon, that argument is usually made for something like reincarnation.
Freedom Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 I disagree with your remark “...To me it is like the difference between being a son and a brother. Two titles for the same person. ...” A son can not always be a brother and a spirit can not always be intelligent. If I only have one child and that is a boy, he is a son, not a brother. So as to a spirit is, but not necessarily intelligent. A spirit is a personality and intelligence is knowledge. There is a clear difference between the two and they don’t necessarily have to combine into one of the same. uh what? 1
LOSTONE Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 uh what? Really? My reply confuses you...? Let me see if I can drop it down to a more basic version... Nope, can’t. Sorry.
Ahab Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 I think...therefore I am. But what am I? I am a child of God, and he has sent me here. Has given me an earthly home, with parents kind and dear.But what about before that? Was I just floating around in space somewhere, with no body of any kind, and was no particular kind of being until God, our Father, took my intelligence from some place and made it into a spirit who he then considered to be one of his children, which is why he tells us that we are his children, even though we originally were not the same kind of being he is and instead just some unknown and unembodied kind of being with no relation at all to him?Well, no, not really. We have always been the same kind of being he is and our intelligence is derived from him, which is why he tells us that we are his children. And even though some of us have some very strange and false ideas about what we are and where we came from, and who we came from, that is the truth of it. We always existed but as a part of him, with his kind of intelligence, even though at this point we are not as perfect as he is, and even though some of us don't want to believe what he tells us or don't even believe he is trying to tell us something about who and what we are and all we can be.
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