Intelligences And Spirits

[Nofear]

I have read everything you can throw at me. Please don't act like the many born again Christians and Catholics who suppose that they are presenting verses from the bible for the first time and we should be taken aback and surprised to the point of conversion. The concept is ambiguous.

 

I actually forget what your position is or the others. It was a generic comment. Maybe relevant to you, maybe not.

[Lachoneus]

See http://josephsmithpapers.org/site/accounts-of-the-king-follett-sermon for the originals.

 

 

Just a minor correction to the introductory note appearing on the josephsmithpapers page.

 

The first publication of this discourse was not in the Times and Seasons. Instead, the first publication of the King Follett discourse occurred in the pamphlet "Voice of Truth" (pages 59-64) written by W. W. Phelps and published by John Taylor. The pamphlet was already in production when the Prophet was killed. Because Bullock had already prepared his amalgamated text of the discourse for the official report of the conference to be published in the Times and Seasons, it was decided to publish that text in the "Voice of Truth" so the Prophet's final discourse could get into the hands of the Saints as quickly as possible. The pamphlet can be read here. The Times and Seasons text of this discourse was published 2-3 weeks later.

[Calm]

If the JSP has it wrong, you should contact them to correct it.

[pogi]

Here are some quotes for our consideration:

 

Joseph Smith

Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it had a beginning?  The intelligence of spirits had not beginning, neither will it have an end. . . . Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle.  (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp.353-354)

 

Joseph Fielding Smith

Some of our writers have endeavored to explain what an intelligence is, but to do so is futile, for we have never been given any insight into this matter beyond what the Lord has fragmentarily revealed. We know, however, that there is something called intelligence which always existed. It is the real eternal part of man, which was not created nor made. This intelligence combined with the spirit constitutes a spiritual identity or individual.  (Answers to Gospel Questions, 4:127)

 

If the Lord declares that intelligence, something which we do not fully understand, was co-eternal with him and always existed, there is no argument that we can or should present to contradict it. Why he cannot create intelligence is simply because intelligence, like time and space, always existed, and therefore did not have to be created. However, intelligences spoken of in the Book of Abraham were created, for these are spirit children of God, begotten sons.  (Answers to Gospel Questions, 3:125)

 

Bruce R. McConkie

Intelligence or light and truth, is also used as a synonym for spirit element. Scriptures using both terms speak of the self-existent nature of the substance involved. (D. & C. 93:29; 131:7-8.) Abraham calls the pre-existent spirits the intelligences that were organized before the world was" (Abra. 3:22) because the intelligences were organized intelligence or in other words the spirit bodies were born from spirit element.   (Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed., p.387)

 

Abraham used the name intelligences to apply to the spirit children of the Eternal Father. The intelligence or spirit element became intelligences after the spirits were born as individual entities. (Abra. 3:22-74.) Use of this name designates both the primal element from which the spirit offspring were created and also their inherited capacity to grow in grace, knowledge power and intelligence itself, until such intelligences, gaining the fulness of all things, become like their Father, the Supreme Intelligence.  (Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed., p.387)

 

Brigham Young

The life that is within us is a part of an eternity of life, and is organized spirit, which is clothed upon by tabernacles, thereby constituting our present being, which is designed for the attainment of further intelligence. The matter composing our bodies and spirits has been organized from the eternity of matter that fills immensity.  (Discourses of Brigham Young,  p.49)

 

Harold B. Lee

A spirit, Abraham says, is an organized intelligence. This is the first beginning we have in our understanding of what a spirit is. It is an organized intelligence that lived as a spirit before this world was.  (The Teachings of Harold B. Lee,  p.28)

 

There is something that is not created or made. The scriptures called it "intelligence," which at a certain stage in the pre-existence was organized into a "spirit."  (The Teachings of Harold B. Lee,  p.74)

 

Bruce R. McConkie

"There is no such thing as immaterial matter," the Prophet tells us. "All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter." (D. & C. 131:7-8.) This spirit element has always existed; it is co-eternal with God. (Teachings, pp. 352-354.) It is also called intelligence or the light of truth, which "was not created or made, neither indeed can be." (D. & C. 93:29.)   

 

Speaking of pre-existent spirits, Abraham calls them "the intelligences that were organized before the world was." (Abra. 3:22-24.) Thus, portions of the self-existent spirit element are born as spirit children, or in other words the intelligence which cannot be created or made, because it is self-existent, is organized into intelligences.   ("Spirit Element," in Mormon Doctrine,  p. 751)

 

Lorenzo Snow 

Our spirit birth gave us godlike capabilities. We were born in the image of God our Father; He begot us like unto Himself. There is the nature of deity in the composition of our spiritual organization; in our spiritual birth our Father transmitted to us the capabilities, powers and faculties which He Himself possessed -- as much so as the child on its mother's bosom possesses, although in an undeveloped state, the faculties, powers, and susceptibilities of its parent. [Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, p.4]

 

First Presidency Message: Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, Anthon H. Lund 

Man is the child of God, formed in the divine image and endowed with divine attributes, and even as the infant son of an earthly father and mother is capable in due time of becoming a man, so the undeveloped offspring of celestial parentage is capable, by experience through ages and aeons, of evolving into a God. [Messages of the First Presidency, 4:206]

 

From https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/intelligence-intelligences?lang=eng :

Intelligence has several meanings, three of which are: (1) It is the light of truth which gives life and light to all things in the universe. It has always existed. (2) The word intelligences may also refer to spirit children of God. (3) The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children.

 

Intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence:D&C 88:40;

Intelligence was not created or made:D&C 93:29;

All intelligence is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it:D&C 93:30;

The glory of God is intelligence:D&C 93:36–37;

Intelligence acquired in this life rises with us in the resurrection:D&C 130:18–19;

The Lord rules over all the intelligences:Abr. 3:21;

The Lord showed Abraham the intelligences that were organized before the world was:Abr. 3:22;

 

D. & C. 93:29, 33-34

Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created nor made, neither indeed can be .... For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; and when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

[Mormon Puzzle Pieces]

The Egyptians anciently had a concept called "ba" which was a fundamental essence of a person and defies translation in English. I suspect this could be the word Joseph Smith translated as "intelligence" in BOA.

[Robert F. Smith]

The Egyptians anciently had a concept called "ba" which was a fundamental essence of a person and defies translation in English. I suspect this could be the word Joseph Smith translated as "intelligence" in BOA.

Perhaps.  The trouble is that there are two words used to depict the human spiritual nature:  bЗ and kЗ.  Egyptologist Jim Allen translates kЗ variously as “life force, double,” and the plural kЗw “energy,” while he translates bЗ as “personality, soul,” and plural bЗw as “impressiveness.”

 

Siegfried Morenz defined kЗ as “hyper-physical vital force,” and others have defined it as “power; essence; double, spirit; will,” etc., whereas Klaus Baer said that the bЗ is an “emanation, capable of independent action and of existence apart from its owner in both the natural and supernatural worlds. . . .  Gods have many ba’s; the totality of their ba’s is their power.  One god can be the ba of another,” and a bЗ is thus almost a hypostasis.  The bЗ is also defined as an “external manifestation” or “existence,” and bЗ ʿnḫy is translated by Gardiner as “living soul.”  Following R. O. Faulkner, in texts contemporary with Abraham, bЗ has been used also to mean “form, shape” (Coffin Text 312 = IV,68-86 ∥Book of the Dead spell 78).

 

If you had to choose, which would you prefer as "intelligence"?  Which as "spirit"?

[Mormon Puzzle Pieces]

Perhaps. The trouble is that there are two words used to depict the human spiritual nature: bЗ and kЗ. Egyptologist Jim Allen translates kЗ variously as “life force, double,” and the plural kЗw “energy,” while he translates bЗ as “personality, soul,” and plural bЗw as “impressiveness.”

Siegfried Morenz defined kЗ as “hyper-physical vital force,” and others have defined it as “power; essence; double, spirit; will,” etc., whereas Klaus Baer said that the bЗ is an“emanation, capable of independent action and of existence apart from its owner in both the natural and supernatural worlds. . . . Gods have many ba’s; the totality of their ba’s is their power. One god can be the ba of another,” and a bЗ is thus almost a hypostasis. The bЗ is also defined as an “external manifestation” or “existence,” and bЗ ʿnḫy is translated by Gardiner as “living soul.” Following R. O. Faulkner, in texts contemporary with Abraham, bЗ has been used also to mean “form, shape” (Coffin Text 312 = IV,68-86 ∥Book of the Dead spell 78).

If you had to choose, which would you prefer as "intelligence"? Which as "spirit"?

Interesting question. But is it not true that Egyptian theology was itself inconsistent from place to place and from one time to another? The original roots of the theology may be lost, but I see a convergence (or maybe just coincidence, but worth thinking about) in that the Egyptians did break down the person into constituent parts, Abraham spent time with the Egyptians, and the Book of Abraham gives us this word "intelligences" where we would expect the word "spirits."

[Mormon Puzzle Pieces]

Perhaps. The trouble is that there are two words used to depict the human spiritual nature: bЗ and kЗ. Egyptologist Jim Allen translates kЗ variously as “life force, double,” and the plural kЗw “energy,” while he translates bЗ as “personality, soul,” and plural bЗw as “impressiveness.”

Siegfried Morenz defined kЗ as “hyper-physical vital force,” and others have defined it as “power; essence; double, spirit; will,” etc., whereas Klaus Baer said that the bЗ is an“emanation, capable of independent action and of existence apart from its owner in both the natural and supernatural worlds. . . . Gods have many ba’s; the totality of their ba’s is their power. One god can be the ba of another,” and a bЗ is thus almost a hypostasis. The bЗ is also defined as an “external manifestation” or “existence,” and bЗ ʿnḫy is translated by Gardiner as “living soul.” Following R. O. Faulkner, in texts contemporary with Abraham, bЗ has been used also to mean “form, shape” (Coffin Text 312 = IV,68-86 ∥Book of the Dead spell 78).

If you had to choose, which would you prefer as "intelligence"? Which as "spirit"?

Interesting question. But is it not true that Egyptian theology was itself inconsistent from place to place and from one time to another? The original roots of the theology may be lost, but I see a convergence (or maybe just coincidence, but worth thinking about) in that the Egyptians did break down the person into constituent parts, Abraham spent time with the Egyptians, and the Book of Abraham gives us this word "intelligences" where we would expect the word "spirits."

[Stargazer]

So will my cat progress in his next life?

 

Which one?

 

(Get it?  Nine lives....)

[Robert F. Smith]

Interesting question. But is it not true that Egyptian theology was itself inconsistent from place to place and from one time to another? The original roots of the theology may be lost, but I see a convergence (or maybe just coincidence, but worth thinking about) in that the Egyptians did break down the person into constituent parts, Abraham spent time with the Egyptians, and the Book of Abraham gives us this word "intelligences" where we would expect the word "spirits."

Some of us think that the word "intelligences" there refers to the original, eternal life force which was embodied spiritually (a fine material) by God.  God there refers to the coeternal and most significant component of his children, and it is not the spiritual body.

[Mormon Puzzle Pieces]

Some of us think that the word "intelligences" there refers to the original, eternal life force which was embodied spiritually (a fine material) by God. God there refers to the coeternal and most significant component of his children, and it is not the spiritual body.

Yes, and I mean to imply that since the Egyptians seem to be breaking down the individual into similar distinct parts which come together, there's a parallel with our gospel context belief that we are intelligence + spirit + physical. An unembodied intelligence may exist but may perhaps not be considered to be living, which may correspond with the sensen document concept of "causing the ba to live."

[Nofear]

An unembodied intelligence may exist but may perhaps not be considered to be living, which may correspond with the sensen document concept of "causing the ba to live."

As asserted before (in this thread and elsewhere) an unembodied / uncreate will by simple, component parts. It may well be able to act without being acted upon but those actions will be effectively random. Why? Without component parts the intelligent matter would have no way of maintaining a memory or perceptual information beyond an immediate event acting on it. Every event, every interaction with its environment would be new and for the first time. Any response would be as good as any other response and so its behavior would likely appear utterly random.

 

Thus, while our core self may have existed into the infinite past, it wasn't until we were begotten with some kind of information gathering and retention machine (e.g. a spirit body) that we had any kind of "intelligent" existence.

[Ahab]

I would like to share my vision on this issue now, using all that Joseph and other prophets of God have said as my references.

I would like you to picture in your mind's eye the birth of a mortal child of God. Do you imagine that is the very first day in the existence of that child? Consider the contributiona of each of the mortal parents and how a part of them is and always will be a part of that child. Think of each generation of mortal parents, going back to Adam and Eve. Go back even further, before Adam and Eve. Think slowly, considering everything the parents have gone through that contribute to the birth of that mortal child. And think about the eternal part of that child, the part that will continue to live after death. Think about where that life came from, and the kind of intelligence that life had to live by.

I hope you're getting the vision that I'm trying to share with you. We are eternal, through our parents, and all of the intelligence we have is of God.

[Mormon Puzzle Pieces]

As asserted before (in this thread and elsewhere) an unembodied / uncreate will by simple, component parts. It may well be able to act without being acted upon but those actions will be effectively random. Why? Without component parts the intelligent matter would have no way of maintaining a memory or perceptual information beyond an immediate event acting on it. Every event, every interaction with its environment would be new and for the first time. Any response would be as good as any other response and so its behavior would likely appear utterly random.

Thus, while our core self may have existed into the infinite past, it wasn't until we were begotten with some kind of information gathering and retention machine (e.g. a spirit body) that we had any kind of "intelligent" existence.

Good thoughts

[Mormon Puzzle Pieces]

As asserted before (in this thread and elsewhere) an unembodied / uncreate will by simple, component parts. It may well be able to act without being acted upon but those actions will be effectively random. Why? Without component parts the intelligent matter would have no way of maintaining a memory or perceptual information beyond an immediate event acting on it.i Every event, every interaction with its environment would be new and for the first time. Any response would be as good as any other response and so its behavior would likely appear utterly random.

Thus, while our core self may have existed into the infinite past, it wasn't until we were begotten with some kind of information gathering and retention machine (e.g. a spirit body) that we had any kind of "intelligent" existence.

I'd like your insight on my solution to the mind-body problem, if you have time http://mormonpuzzlepieces.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-mind-body-problem-consciousness-and.html?m=1

[Mormon Puzzle Pieces]

I would like to share my vision on this issue now, using all that Joseph and other prophets of God have said as my references.

I would like you to picture in your mind's eye the birth of a mortal child of God. Do you imagine that is the very first day in the existence of that child? Consider the contributiona of each of the mortal parents and how a part of them is and always will be a part of that child. Think of each generation of mortal parents, going back to Adam and Eve. Go back even further, before Adam and Eve. Think slowly, considering everything the parents have gone through that contribute to the birth of that mortal child. And think about the eternal part of that child, the part that will continue to live after death. Think about where that life came from, and the kind of intelligence that life had to live by.

I hope you're getting the vision that I'm trying to share with you. We are eternal, through our parents, and all of the intelligence we have is of God.

So pieces of God. I think there's truth to that.

[Nofear]

I'd like your insight on my solution to the mind-body problem, if you have time http://mormonpuzzlepieces.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-mind-body-problem-consciousness-and.html?m=1

You've definitely put some thought into it. That alone puts you heads and tails above most.

 

While I can identify with and agree with much (for example, making mind/intelligence, spirit body, and physical body distinct things) it is still profoundly in the realm of metaphysical. Very little is "testable" and so little to fundamentally distinguish it from the thousands of years of thinking on the subject. :doh:

 

You did mention a test, the apparent activity of a brain before one becomes conscious of its activity. This you felt, your model needed to explain away. I take a different approach. My conscious activity, I suspect is very much filtered through the physical brain. What I perceive of as thinking is through my physical brain, but it is not my mind, it is not the source of my free will. The ultimate source is the mind/intelligence. The mind/intelligence makes free willed instructions which are then sent through the spirit body to the physical body. The body, including the brain, then process those instructions. It is by no means implausible that parts of my brain or body process the instructions before I become conscious of them. Consequently, the action potential free will experiments by no means challenge the concept of free will but can well be a prediction of tripartite models of matter (intelligence/spirit/physical).

[Ahab]

You've definitely put some thought into it. That alone puts you heads and tails above most.

While I can identify with and agree with much (for example, making mind/intelligence, spirit body, and physical body distinct things) it is still profoundly in the realm of metaphysical. Very little is "testable" and so little to fundamentally distinguish it from the thousands of years of thinking on the subject. :doh:

You did mention a test, the apparent activity of a brain before one becomes conscious of its activity. This you felt, your model needed to explain away. I take a different approach. My conscious activity, I suspect is very much filtered through the physical brain. What I perceive of as thinking is through my physical brain, but it is not my mind, it is not the source of my free will. The ultimate source is the mind/intelligence. The mind/intelligence makes free willed instructions which are then sent through the spirit body to the physical body. The body, including the brain, then process those instructions. It is by no means implausible that parts of my brain or body process the instructions before I become conscious of them. Consequently, the action potential free will experiments by no means challenge the concept of free will but can well be a prediction of tripartite models of matter (intelligence/spirit/physical).

You're talking about being self-aware and using the agency and intelligence God has given to you. Go back a little further now. What do you think you are and who do you think you came from?

[pogi]

You're talking about being self-aware and using the agency and intelligence God has given to you. Go back a little further now. What do you think you are and who do you think you came from?

 

Going back further...

 

What do I think I was?

 

I was an intelligence.  However, we can't really say for sure if intelligences were not self-aware or lacked agency.  I can't say for sure, but I like to believe that I chose to become a spirit child of God upon his prompting, that I was not forced into anything by God.

 

Who do I think I came from?

 

That implies that I had a beginning.  If intelligences are eternal with no creation or beginning, they cannot come from someone or something.  They are an eternal something independent of other eternal things, hence the plurality of "intelligences".  Co-eternal with God not from God. 

 

If intelligences are of God - pieces of God, then you are going to run into the same problems that trinitarians face of multiple persons, same substance, one God. 

Edited January 23, 2015 by pogi

[Mormon Puzzle Pieces]

You've definitely put some thought into it. That alone puts you heads and tails above most.

While I can identify with and agree with much (for example, making mind/intelligence, spirit body, and physical body distinct things) it is still profoundly in the realm of metaphysical. Very little is "testable" and so little to fundamentally distinguish it from the thousands of years of thinking on the subject. :doh:

You did mention a test, the apparent activity of a brain before one becomes conscious of its activity. This you felt, your model needed to explain away. I take a different approach. My conscious activity, I suspect is very much filtered through the physical brain. What I perceive of as thinking is through my physical brain, but it is not my mind, it is not the source of my free will. The ultimate source is the mind/intelligence. The mind/intelligence makes free willed instructions which are then sent through the spirit body to the physical body. The body, including the brain, then process those instructions. It is by no means implausible that parts of my brain or body process the instructions before I become conscious of them. Consequently, the action potential free will experiments by no means challenge the concept of free will but can well be a prediction of tripartite models of matter (intelligence/spirit/physical).

Our thinking is similar

[Ahab]

Going back further...

What do I think I was?

I was an intelligence. However, we can't really say for sure if intelligences were not self-aware or lacked agency. I can't say for sure, but I like to believe that I chose to become a spirit child of God upon his prompting, that I was not forced into anything by God.

Okay, you're entitled to your opinion, but I think all kinds of intelligent beings are self-aware and have agency, with the ability to act instead of only being acted upon. And whether or not God gave your life and intelligence to you, if you are an eternal being, you have no choice but to go on living forever, otherwise you are not eternal. Your power is only in choosing how you will live, to the extent that you have that power.

Who do I think I came from?

That implies that I had a beginning.

Not necessarily an ultimate beginning, though.

Hint: You come from your parents.

If intelligences are eternal with no creation or beginning, they cannot come from someone or something. They are an eternal something independent of other eternal things, hence the plurality of "intelligences". Co-eternal with God not from God.

You might want to think that through a little bit more, otherwise you may stay stuck on your current ideas.

If intelligences are of God - pieces of God, then you are going to run into the same problems that trinitarians face of multiple persons, same substance, one God.

Yep. And that is the truth of it, whether you know it or not.

[Nofear]

Ahab, I gave up attempting to help you see rational thinking long ago. Having watched some of your comments in the past months, despite the occasional interesting comment, I'm not ready to reenter that rabbit hole with you, sorry.

[Ahab]

Ahab, I gave up attempting to help you see rational thinking long ago. Having watched some of your comments in the past months, despite the occasional interesting comment, I'm not ready to reenter that rabbit hole with you, sorry.

No problemo.

Nice jab, btw. Good thing I have my thick skin on.

[pogi]

Yep. And that is the truth of it, whether you know it or not.

 

Sorry, I forgot that you claimed to be a Mormon trinitarian from another thread.  I think that trinitarian is a misnomer for you however, you are more like a trillionitarian. 

[Ahab]

Sorry, I forgot that you claimed to be a Mormon trinitarian from another thread. I think that trinitarian is a misnomer for you however, you are more like a trillionitarian.

More than a trillion, actually, with no limit to the number of people who are the kind of being we call God and are in unity with each other, at least on some level, to some extent. But you're right than a trillion is closer to that infinite number than 3 is. And I prefer to simply be called Christian, and Mormon. Or just a latter-day saint. Edited January 24, 2015 by Ahab