Intelligences And Spirits

[pogi]

We were a part of them before we were born as their spirit children.

 

I understand your theory, I just don't see any scriptural or prophetic evidence for it.

 

All of the scriptural and prophetic evidence that I can find about "intelligences" suggests that intelligence is unorganized spirit matter which "fills the immensity of space" (in other words, outside of God), self-existent, and co-eternal with God.  If you can provide any scriptural or prophetic evidence to support your theory I would be happy to consider it, otherwise I am inclined to follow the explanations below. 

 

Once again:

 

The matter composing our bodies and spirits has been organized from the eternity of matter that fills immensity.  (Discourses of Brigham Young,  p.49)

 

Intelligence or light and truth, is also used as a synonym for spirit element. (Bruce R. McConkie)

 

The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children.

https://www.lds.org/...gences?lang=eng

 

Thus, portions of the self-existent spirit element [intelligence] are born as spirit children, or in other words the intelligence which cannot be created or made, because it is self-existent, is organized into intelligences. (Bruce R. McConkie).

 

Can you provide anything to refute these statements from the church and prophets?

Edited February 4, 2015 by pogi

[Ahab]

I understand your theory, I just don't see any scriptural or prophetic evidence for it.

Then please re-examine how you interpret some scriptures.

All of the scriptural and prophetic evidence that I can find about "intelligences" suggests that intelligence is unorganized spirit matter which "fills the immensity of space" (in other words, outside of God), self-existent, and co-eternal with God.

Be careful when saying what some scriptures "suggest" and when putting their words "in other words". And what do you mean by "outside of God"?

We are his children. We came from him, or at least some part of us did. Think more about how parents perpetuate themselves when they reproduce a part of themselves into the children they create.

If you can provide any evidence to support your theory I would be happy to consider it, otherwise I am inclined to follow the scriptures and the prophets explanations.

My understanding comes from what they say, as well, coupled with inspiration from God to me to help me understand what they meant. Just take a fresh look at the scriptures you're already familiar with.

Once again:

The matter composing our bodies and spirits has been organized from the eternity of matter that fills immensity. (Discourses of Brigham Young, p.49)

Think about people consisting of matter with parents perpetuating themselves into other people consisting of matter. There is an eternity of matter in people, as well as all other kinds of intelligent beings and even non-living beings. There is no end, or beginning, to any form of matter.

Intelligence or light and truth, is also used as a synonym for spirit element. (Bruce R. McConkie)

True enough and simple to understand.

The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children.

Yes, as we were when our spirits were part of the spirits of our parents in heaven, even before we were born to them as their spirit children. We have always had the spirit of God as a part of our nature. We were never some other kind of being.

Thus, portions of the self-existent spirit element [intelligence] are born as spirit children, or in other words the intelligence which cannot be created or made, because it is self-existent, is organized into intelligences. (Bruce R. McConkie).

Another way of saying what I am saying. Think about where that self-existent, always existent, eternally existent matter would have been. Think about the matter in our eternal parents. We are the same kind of being they are, and always were, and always will be.

Can you provide anything to refute these statements from the church and prophets?

I have no desire to do that.

[mfbukowski]

Heh. Cute. Admittedly I am dubious and would like to see repeatable verification of the study.

I was just talking about our infrared blackbody that all living humans emit.

Nice to know we are all hotties! 

[pogi]

Ahab, if you are not going to provide any evidence from scripture or prophets, why would I trust you? 

 

We don't know anything about our spiritual birth.  Is there a part of us that came from the as you suggest?  Possibly, but we don't know what that is.  One thing is evident to me anyway, it was not our intelligences, as intelligence is unorganized spirit matter which fills all space - No part of God is unorganized spirit matter which fills all space.   

Edited February 4, 2015 by pogi

[JLHPROF]

Then please re-examine how you interpret some scriptures.

Be careful when saying what some scriptures "suggest" and when putting their words "in other words". And what do you mean by "outside of God"?

My understanding comes from what they say, as well, coupled with inspiration from God to me to help me understand what they meant. Just take a fresh look at the scriptures you're already familiar with.

 

 

Whenever someone starts suggesting I examine my interpretation of scripture because it disagrees with theirs, two quotes spring to mind.

 

"What is the rule of interpretation? Just no interpretation at all. Understand it precisely as it reads."  - Joseph Smith

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.  - 2 Peter 1:20

 

As long as we are reading it in context there should be NO differing interpretation.

Edited February 4, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Ahab]

Ahab, if you are not going to provide any evidence from scripture or prophets, why would I trust you?

This is me providing to you all of the scriptures you are already familiar, again. I'm simply asking you to take another look at those same scriptures.

Intelligent matter fills the immensity of space, God does not.

God is a word that refers to the kind of being that our Father in heaven is, just as it can also refer to any other person who is the same kind of being he is. And there is no end or beginning to the number of persons who are that kind of being. They are eternal. They have always existed even before they were born as children to their parents, with no end or ultimate beginning to the number of their parents. Just as Jesus was always the same kind of being as his Father, always existing, even before he was the first born son in the spirit of his Father in heaven, who is also our Father.

We don't know anything about our spiritual birth.

We know more, collectively, than you know.

Is there a part of us that came from them as you suggest? Possibly, but we don't know what that is. One thing is evident to me anyway, it was not our intelligences, as intelligence is unorganized spirit matter.

There is no such thing as unorganized intelligence. All intelligence is organized. And how is it organized? As forms of spirit matter, if not also organized as other forms of matter that have spirit matter within them.

Sounds to me like you don't yet know what kind of being we have always been, so I'm thinking this little thought experiment might help you to get a clearer picture:

Suppose at some point in eternity past that you were a rock, an intelligent rock. A rock with some intelligence, in other words. Now suppose that the person you now think of as your Father in heaven sees you, and says to you, I see that you have some intelligence, rock. Would you like to have even more? You of course said yes, since you are not a rock now and so you must concluse that there must have been some way that you progressed from being only a rock, so the person who is your Father now ate you then and your matter then became a part of him, mingled with his matter. And then sometime later he got together with his wife, while you were a part of him then, and then after some time you were born to them as a spirit baby, having the samw kind of spirit as them, being the samw kind of being they are.

I hope you enjoyed the story. Just so you know, though, you were never a rock. Not even an intelligent rock, or a rock with intelligence in it.

[Stone holm]

We know that intelligences were not created or formed by God.  We do not know much, however, about what the form intelligences actually had.  We do know that God "created" spirits, we understand from the teachings that when it came to His spirit children that appears to have been something like how we create mortal babies.  We know basically nothing about how the rest of the spiritual creation occurred -- we merely know it occurred and He caused it to occur.  But we know basically nothing about what a spiritual tree, animal, or rock is like -- so any speculation about what systems they contain other than the fact that they are in fact material, but of finer stuff, is complete speculation on our part.  So to say rocks don't dream, is as speculative as saying they do.

 

We do not even know whether God dreams -- these are all suppositions on our part.

[mfbukowski]

This is me providing to you all of the scriptures you are already familiar, again. I'm simply asking you to take another look at those same scriptures.

God is a word that refers to the kind of being that our Father in heaven is, just as it can also refer to any other person who is the same kind of being he is. And there is no end or beginning to the number of persons who are that kind of being. They are eternal. They have always existed even before they were born as children to their parents, with no end or ultimate beginning to the number of their parents. Just as Jesus was always the same kind of being as his Father, always existing, even before he was the first born son in the spirit of his Father in heaven, who is also our Father.

We know more, collectively, than you know.

There is no such thing as unorganized intelligence. All intelligence is organized. And how is it organized? As forms of spirit matter, if not also organized as other forms of matter that have spirit matter within them.

Sounds to me like you don't yet know what kind of being we have always been, so I'm thinking this little thought experiment might help you to get a clearer picture:

Suppose at some point in eternity past that you were a rock, an intelligent rock. A rock with some intelligence, in other words. Now suppose that the person you now think of as your Father in heaven sees you, and says to you, I see that you have some intelligence, rock. Would you like to have even more? You of course said yes, since you are not a rock now and so you must concluse that there must have been some way that you progressed from being only a rock, so the person who is your Father now ate you then and your matter then became a part of him, mingled with his matter. And then sometime later he got together with his wife, while you were a part of him then, and then after some time you were born to them as a spirit baby, having the samw kind of spirit as them, being the samw kind of being they are.

I hope you enjoyed the story. Just so you know, though, you were never a rock. Not even an intelligent rock, or a rock with intelligence in it.

 

 

Easy guys.

 

THERE ARE MANY INTERPRETATIONS POSSIBLE FOR THESE SCRIPTURES, DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT.

 

Everyone gets to have their own.

[mfbukowski]

Whenever someone starts suggesting I examine my interpretation of scripture because it disagrees with theirs, two quotes spring to mind.

 

"What is the rule of interpretation? Just no interpretation at all. Understand it precisely as it reads."  - Joseph Smith

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.  - 2 Peter 1:20

 

As long as we are reading it in context there should be NO differing interpretation.

Listen to yourself!!!

 

What you are saying is that only your interpretation is "correct".

 

The whole post is self contradictory!

 

Your interpretation is as "private" as anyone else's!!  I can show you quotes from Joseph saying the opposite.

 

ALL WE HAVE IS INTERPRETATIONS, GET OVER IT.  PICK ONE AND LIVE YOUR LIFE!

Edited February 4, 2015 by mfbukowski

[Ahab]

We know that intelligences were not created or formed by God. We do not know much, however, about what the form intelligences actually had. We do know that God "created" spirits, we understand from the teachings that when it came to His spirit children that appears to have been something like how we create mortal babies. We know basically nothing about how the rest of the spiritual creation occurred -- we merely know it occurred and He caused it to occur. But we know basically nothing about what a spiritual tree, animal, or rock is like -- so any speculation about what systems they contain other than the fact that they are in fact material, but of finer stuff, is complete speculation on our part. So to say rocks don't dream, is as speculative as saying they do.

We do not even know whether God dreams -- these are all suppositions on our part.

Some of the "we" know things that you and others don't know and although your use of the word "we" doesn't reflect that fact I suppose we can honestly say that among the "we" in all of eternity there are some of us who don't know what the others of us do know and that there will always be some of the "we" who do not know.

[Ahab]

Easy guys.

THERE ARE MANY INTERPRETATIONS POSSIBLE FOR THESE SCRIPTURES, DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT.

Everyone gets to have their own.

Yeah but it sure would be nice if everybody would just agree with me and our Father in heaven, at least once in a while

But yeah, yeah, I know, some people will agree some of the time but there will never be a time when everybody agrees with everyone else all of the time.

[Stone holm]

Sorry by "we", I meant Mormons.  When I used know, I am referring to LDS doctrine -- as opposed to teachings, or general belief -- of course non-Mormons would probably not agree or even understand what we are debating about because they do not have a materialist concept of spirits.

[Ahab]

Sorry by "we", I meant Mormons. When I used know, I am referring to LDS doctrine -- as opposed to teachings, or general belief -- of course non-Mormons would probably not agree or even understand what we are debating about because they do not have a materialist concept of spirits.

Let's just leave it at: only the Presidents of the Church speak for all Mormons regarding what "our" doctrine is. Shall we? Or do you also disagree with that sentiment?

My point was mainly to say that there are some of us (Mormons) who know more than YOU know, by knowing more about what our Lord's prophets have taught.