Nofear Posted February 1, 2015 Posted February 1, 2015 Hm, the difference between saying something is something other than physical matter is different than saying something is immaterial matter.... Do stones dream?Your failure to see the irony of your comment in quoting the scripture about *spirit* matter does not elude me.But, I also feel no particular motivation to persuade you otherwise.PS: The comment about rocks dreaming is also highly suggestive that you have no idea what I'm talking about.
Robert F. Smith Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 No thanks. I do just fine with revelation from God and this issue is as simple as the story of the birds and the bees.Of course it is, although what is this "birds & bees" thing Daddy? Oh, it is ever so simple, Son.Famous last words . . .
Stone holm Posted February 2, 2015 Author Posted February 2, 2015 Your failure to see the irony of your comment in quoting the scripture about *spirit* matter does not elude me.But, I also feel no particular motivation to persuade you otherwise.PS: The comment about rocks dreaming is also highly suggestive that you have no idea what I'm talking about. You are probably right, btw my answer to the rock question would be a tentative yes because rocks are necessarily composed of intelligence otherwise they could not obey God.
mfbukowski Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 Of course it is, although what is this "birds & bees" thing Daddy? Oh, it is ever so simple, Son.Famous last words . . . This reminds me of the old joke about the little boy and his dad in which the little boy asks dad "Daddy, where did I come from"? The dad summons his courage, takes a deep breath and launches into THE discussion of the birds and bees complete with detailed descriptions, as age appropriate as he can make them, and finally finishes. "Did that answer your question?" "Uh, not really dad. It's just that Bobby said he came from Cincinnati and I was wondering where I came from?" 2
mfbukowski Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 No thanks. I do just fine with revelation from God and this issue is as simple as the story of the birds and the bees.Yet God has a body of flesh and bones but no blood or... etc. This whole discussion is so close to blasphemy it makes me very uncomfortable, but since you insist on taking this direction...... That position is hardly "simple" since one begins falsely mixing science with theology to start off with, and ends up with nonsensical conclusions or speculation beyond what most decent people would find acceptable to even think about.
Ahab Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 Yet God has a body of flesh and bones but no blood or... etc.This whole discussion is so close to blasphemy it makes me very uncomfortable, but since you insist on taking this direction......That position is hardly "simple" since one begins falsely mixing science with theology to start off with, and ends up with nonsensical conclusions or speculation beyond what most decent people would find acceptable to even think about.Parents having babies who grow up to be parents who also have babies, ad infinitum.What's weird is that some adults still act like they don't know where babies come from.
Nofear Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 You are probably right, btw my answer to the rock question would be a tentative yes because rocks are necessarily composed of intelligence otherwise they could not obey God. Hmm, seems like your panpsychism thread went off in unintended directions. A shame (not that the other stuff is interesting to some). While I do not subscribe at all to that train of thought I can appreciate that others do.
pogi Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 You are probably right, btw my answer to the rock question would be a tentative yes because rocks are necessarily composed of intelligence otherwise they could not obey God. Organisms sleep/dream for biological/physiological reasons, but there is no reason to speculate that intelligences do.
Stone holm Posted February 3, 2015 Author Posted February 3, 2015 Organisms sleep/dream for biological/physiological reasons, but there is no reason to speculate that intelligences do.Why?
pogi Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) Why? Because sleep is a physiological function of organisms, which intelligences are not. If you want to speculate, that is fine, but a reason to justify your belief would give it more foundation. Edited February 3, 2015 by pogi
Stone holm Posted February 3, 2015 Author Posted February 3, 2015 Because sleep is a physiological function of organisms, which intelligences are not. If you want to speculate, that is fine, but a reason to justify your belief would give it more foundation.How do you know that?
pogi Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) How do you know that? I believe it based on evidence. If I remember my studies from nursing school correctly, sleep is a function of the parasympathetic nervous system, aka the "rest and digest" system. Intelligences don't have one of those. Neither do trees. If trees and intelligences do indeed "sleep", it is not sleep as we understand it and measure it. It does not serve the same purpose and is not a function of the same system. Intelligences don't even have systems, they are "unorganized" spirits. I can't think of any reason as to why they would sleep, can you? Just as it would seem ridiculous to suggest that intelligences "digest", it seems just as far-fetched to suggest that they "sleep" as they are bodily functions of the same system. Edited February 3, 2015 by pogi
Ahab Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) I believe it based on evidence.If I remember my studies from nursing school correctly, sleep is a function of the parasympathetic nervous system, aka the "rest and digest" system. Intelligences don't have one of those. Neither do trees. If trees and intelligences do indeed "sleep", it is not sleep as we understand it and measure it. It does not serve the same purpose and is not a function of the same system. Intelligences don't even have systems, they are "unorganized" spirits. I can't think of any reason as to why they would sleep, can you? Just as it would seem ridiculous to suggest that intelligences "digest", it seems just as far-fetched to suggest that they "sleep" as they are bodily functions of the same system.Here I think you and I disagree on what an "intelligence" is. The word could be used to refer to any specific kind of being, such as our kind of being or a tree or a dog or any other kind of intelligent being.So we, or our kind of being, in any stage of our development, can be referred to as intelligences or an intelligent kind of being with some degree of the intelligence that intelligences of our kind have. At one stage of our development we were still a part of our parents, not yet born to them as their spirit children but still the same kind of being tbey are, and then they mingled some of their parts together so that we would be born to them as their spirit children. And then later we came here to go through this stage, eventually and hopefully finding a spouse with whom we could also have children, first in morality and later throughout eternity, just as our heavenly parents have already done before us and will continue to do forever.It's all very simple, really, and every other kind of intelligence does pretty much the same thing in their own way, with parents having children who hopefully and eventually also become parents themselves. It's the circle of life in eternal rounds. Edited February 3, 2015 by Ahab
Stone holm Posted February 3, 2015 Author Posted February 3, 2015 How do you know intelligences don't have them? What evidence do you have that intelligences do not have such systems?
pogi Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 The word could be used to refer to any specific kind of being, such as our kind of being or a tree or a dog or any other kind of intelligent being. We are talking about pre mortal, pre spirit-birth intelligence.
pogi Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) How do you know intelligences don't have them? What evidence do you have that intelligences do not have such systems? Because the parasympathetic nervous system is made up of the "flesh". Our spirit bodies may have had something that resembled such systems in spirit form, but could not function as such as evidenced by the need for our physical bodies. Our intelligences, on the other hand, were formed and organized by God in the form, or system, that we are today, meaning that they were not organized like we are - no parasympathetic nervous system. Edited February 3, 2015 by pogi
Ahab Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 We are talking about pre mortal, pre spirit-birth intelligence.Yes, which is what we were when we were still a part of our parents in heaven. We were a part of them before we were born as their spirit children. We always have been and always will be part of them, which is what makes us the same kind of being they are, just as those who are yet to be born from part of you and the woman who helps you give birth to their spirits are still part of you and her even now. We perpetuate ourselves, and the children we produce perpetuate themselves just as we do or will.I know some people have a strange notion that we just floated around in space as some kind of being other than the kind we are right now, just as some people have some strange notion of our Father in heaven being something like that, but neither he or we have ever been anything other than the kind of being we are. Just different stages of development, but the same kind of being.
Stone holm Posted February 4, 2015 Author Posted February 4, 2015 Because the parasympathetic nervous system is made up of the "flesh". Our spirit bodies may have had something that resembled such systems in spirit form, but could not function as such as evidenced by the need for our physical bodies. Our intelligences, on the other hand, were formed and organized by God in the form, or system, that we are today, meaning that they were not organized like we are - no parasympathetic nervous system.First of all the intelligences were not formed by God, at least not according to Mormon doctrine, secondly, we have no clue what Celestial bodies are set up except they do not have blood and can glow. So in this instance you are merely stating conclusions. But rocks more logically contain intelligence since they obey God's commands. So perchance they dream as well.
Tacenda Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 First of all the intelligences were not formed by God, at least not according to Mormon doctrine, secondly, we have no clue what Celestial bodies are set up except they do not have blood and can glow. So in this instance you are merely stating conclusions. But rocks more logically contain intelligence since they obey God's commands. So perchance they dream as well.Also, spirits weren't created either by God, according to Vol. 6 in Church History.
Nofear Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 Because the parasympathetic nervous system is made up of the "flesh". Our spirit bodies may have had something that resembled such systems in spirit form, but could not function as such as evidenced by the need for our physical bodies. Our intelligences, on the other hand, were formed and organized by God in the form, or system, that we are today, meaning that they were not organized like we are - no parasympathetic nervous system.I have a fully different interpretation. Our universe is populated by physical matter. Our theology also asserts the presence of spirit matter. Our physical matter body readily interacts with the physical matter universe. We can observe and do a be a part of it very readily. Our spirit matter body will presumably interact very readily with the spirit matter portion of the universe. If all we had was a physical matter body we would be essentially blind to "half" the universe. If all we had was a spirit matter body we would also be essentially blind to "half" the universe. Exalted beings cannot be satisfied with such half-measures. By possessing a physical and spirit body* they have access to perception of all of the universe and able to readily participate with it. Having two material bodies, physical and spirit, is a pragmatic necessity dictated by the nature of our universe. * We mortals also have a spirit and physical body combined. Nonetheless, our interaction with the spirit matter side of the universe is artificially suppressed (i.e. "veiled") for a time.
Nofear Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 First of all the intelligences were not formed by God, at least not according to Mormon doctrine, secondly, we have no clue what Celestial bodies are set up except they do not have blood and can glow. You already glow quite a bit with your physical matter body too. Quite luminous in fact.
JLHPROF Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 You already glow quite a bit with your physical matter body too. Quite luminous in fact. And Mormons even more...http://utahdatapoints.com/2010/12/do-mormons-really-glow/http://tuftsjournal.tufts.edu/archives/1627https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201210/whats-in-facehttp://www.scienceandreligiontoday.com/2010/12/22/can-mormons-be-distinguished-by-their-faces/
pogi Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 (edited) First of all the intelligences were not formed by God, at least not according to Mormon doctrine, secondly, we have no clue what Celestial bodies are set up except they do not have blood and can glow. So in this instance you are merely stating conclusions. But rocks more logically contain intelligence since they obey God's commands. So perchance they dream as well. Right, intelligences were not formed as intelligences, but they were formed into spirit children by God. Not just spirit children, but God organized all intelligent matter into spirit forms of all creation - rocks, trees, etc. Before that, they did not resemble these forms. That is what I meant. Intelligences had no resemblence to us or any of creation before our spirit formation - No nervous system, therefore no sleep, just unorganized matter. Intelligence is unorganized spirit element: Bruce R. McConkieIntelligence or light and truth, is also used as a synonym for spirit element. Brigham YoungThe life that is within us is a part of an eternity of life, and is organized spirit, which is clothed upon by tabernacles, thereby constituting our present being, which is designed for the attainment of further intelligence. The matter composing our bodies and spirits has been organized from the eternity of matter that fills immensity. (Discourses of Brigham Young, p.49) This spirit element has always existed; it is co-eternal with God. (Teachings, pp. 352-354.) It is also called intelligence or the light of truth, which "was not created or made, neither indeed can be." (D. & C. 93:29.) The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children.https://www.lds.org/...gences?lang=eng There is something that is not created or made. The scriptures called it "intelligence," which at a certain stage in the pre-existence was organized into a "spirit." Harold B. Lee Thus, portions of the self-existent spirit element [intelligence] are born as spirit children, or in other words the intelligence which cannot be created or made, because it is self-existent, is organized into intelligences. Bruce R. McConkie. To address your second point about "celestial bodies", I agree, but we were talking about pre-spirit birth intelligences. Edited February 4, 2015 by pogi
Nofear Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 And Mormons even more... http://utahdatapoints.com/2010/12/do-mormons-really-glow/ http://tuftsjournal.tufts.edu/archives/1627 https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201210/whats-in-face http://www.scienceandreligiontoday.com/2010/12/22/can-mormons-be-distinguished-by-their-faces/ Heh. Cute. Admittedly I am dubious and would like to see repeatable verification of the study. I was just talking about our infrared blackbody that all living humans emit.
pogi Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 (edited) I have a fully different interpretation. Our universe is populated by physical matter. Our theology also asserts the presence of spirit matter. Our physical matter body readily interacts with the physical matter universe. We can observe and do a be a part of it very readily. Our spirit matter body will presumably interact very readily with the spirit matter portion of the universe. If all we had was a physical matter body we would be essentially blind to "half" the universe. If all we had was a spirit matter body we would also be essentially blind to "half" the universe. Exalted beings cannot be satisfied with such half-measures. By possessing a physical and spirit body* they have access to perception of all of the universe and able to readily participate with it. Having two material bodies, physical and spirit, is a pragmatic necessity dictated by the nature of our universe. * We mortals also have a spirit and physical body combined. Nonetheless, our interaction with the spirit matter side of the universe is artificially suppressed (i.e. "veiled") for a time. I don't disagree with any of this, perhaps I did not speak clearly and was misunderstood. Edited February 4, 2015 by pogi
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