pogi Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 (edited) Hint: You come from your parents. Are you referring to my pre-spirit child intelligence when you say "you"? Then I have a beginning. Edited January 24, 2015 by pogi
Ahab Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 Then I have a beginning.No ultimate beginning, though. There is no beginning to the number of parents you have. We are eternal.
pogi Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 No ultimate beginning, though.There is no beginning to the number of parents you have. We are eternal. You mean I have a Father before Heavenly Father? Just curious to see how far you can take this.
Ahab Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 You mean I have a Father before Heavenly Father? Just curious to see how far you can take this.IN-FIN-ITYDrink the Kool-aid.
pogi Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 IN-FIN-ITYDrink the Kool-aid. I have 2 births, one spiritual and one physical, and therefore only two literal fathers. Who begat my intelligence?
Ahab Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 I wasn't planning on talking about all of the other kinds of intelligent beings that are also eternal, other than our kind of being, like chickens with their eggs and what not, and dinosaurs too, but yeah let's go ahead and mention the turtles. There are also parent turtles for baby turtles, all the way down, with no end to the number of all turtles in existence. It just sounds kinda strange to say it that way because there is no "all the way down". There is no bottom in infinite numbers.
pogi Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 I wasn't planning on talking about all of the other kinds of intelligent beings that are also eternal, other than our kind of being, like chickens with their eggs and what not, and dinosaurs too, but yeah let's go ahead and mention the turtles. There are also parent turtles for baby turtles, all the way down, with no end to the number of all turtles in existence.It just sounds kinda strange to say it that way because there is no "all the way down". There is no bottom in infinite numbers. You mean there is a heavenly turtle father who created all earth turtles to become celestialized turtle Gods like him and his turtle fathers before him? This is getting good!
Ahab Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 I have 2 births, one spiritual and one physical, and therefore only two literal fathers. Who begat my intelligence?A part of you was a part of each of your parents, including your intelligence which camw from their intelligence. So you can thank each and everyone of your parents for what they passed on to you, with no end to everyone, and no "ultimate" beginning either.
Ahab Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 You mean there is a heavenly turtle father who created all earth turtles to become celestialized turtle Gods like him and his turtle fathers before him? This is getting good!Eat up, bro. You're only scratching the surface.
pogi Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 Eat up, bro. You're only scratching the surface. E-coli, botulinum, and MRSA Gods Oh my! I always thought that our Father is the father and creator of all living, shows what I know!
pogi Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 A part of you was a part of each of your parents, including your intelligence which camw from their intelligence. So you can thank each and everyone of your parents for what they passed on to you, with no end to everyone, and no "ultimate" beginning either. In other words, I was God. I then decided to reproduce and divide my intelligence which is apparently divisible and test myself to see if I would obey myself? If I was God, why would I need to test myself? My intelligence is perfect!
Calm Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 A part of you was a part of each of your parents, including your intelligence which camw from their intelligence. So you can thank each and everyone of your parents for what they passed on to you, with no end to everyone, and no "ultimate" beginning either.DNA is actually lost from earlier generations because there is a limit to how much DNA code our genes hold…when we hit the ninth generation and back traces of some of our ancestors are likely not be found in our own DNA….so not all of our 'parents' have passed on stuff to us at least physically. http://gcbias.org/2013/11/11/how-does-your-number-of-genetic-ancestors-grow-back-over-time/
Ahab Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 DNA is actually lost from earlier generations because there is a limit to how much DNA code our genes hold…when we hit the ninth generation and back traces of some of our ancestors are likely not be found in our own DNA….so not all of our 'parents' have passed on stuff to us at least physically.http://gcbias.org/2013/11/11/how-does-your-number-of-genetic-ancestors-grow-back-over-time/And yet if each of our parents in each preceeding generation had not given birth to each succeeding generation that led to us being born then we would not have been born, so each generation did pass something along to us that contributed to what we are. It is interesting to hear that DNA isn't all that it's cracked up to be, though. I thought it could be used to tell us who we came from far more than only about 9 generations back. 1
Ahab Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 E-coli, botulinum, and MRSA Gods Oh my! I always thought that our Father is the father and creator of all living, shows what I know!The word God is generally understood to refer to the most supreme kind of being in all of existence, which is our kind of being, so I wouldn't go around calling every other kind of being God just because they are eternal.And although other kinds of beings create/organize things in their own way, we are still the most supreme creators/organizers in all of existence.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 As asserted before (in this thread and elsewhere) an unembodied / uncreate will by simple, component parts. It may well be able to act without being acted upon but those actions will be effectively random. Why? Without component parts the intelligent matter would have no way of maintaining a memory or perceptual information beyond an immediate event acting on it. Every event, every interaction with its environment would be new and for the first time. Any response would be as good as any other response and so its behavior would likely appear utterly random. Thus, while our core self may have existed into the infinite past, it wasn't until we were begotten with some kind of information gathering and retention machine (e.g. a spirit body) that we had any kind of "intelligent" existence.A brilliant summation, Nofear.
Ahab Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 A brilliant summation, Nofear.I concur. I was just trying to add to it.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 I have 2 births, one spiritual and one physical, and therefore only two literal fathers. Who begat my intelligence?An intelligence has no beginning and will have no end. They are gnolaum "eternal," and cannot be begotten by definition. D&C 93:29,38; Abraham 3:18; Joseph Smith Funeral Sermon for King Follett.
Ahab Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) An intelligence has no beginning and will have no end. They are gnolaum "eternal," and cannot be begotten by definition. D&C 93:29,38; Abraham 3:18; Joseph Smith Funeral Sermon for King Follett.Poorly worded. Intelligent beings beget others of their own kind and unless you think of their begotten as totally without any intelligence then some intelligence is being begotten by those who beget it.A better way to say what was meant is intelligence is perpetuated, rather than created from out of nothing or coming from nowhere. All kinds of beings have some degree of intelligence and our kind of being, with more intelligence than any other kind of being, begets the most intelligent individuals in all of existence.Someday it might be a good idea to open another school for prophets to teach the importance of choosing words carefully. Edited January 25, 2015 by Ahab
Kenngo1969 Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 DNA is actually lost from earlier generations because there is a limit to how much DNA code our genes hold…when we hit the ninth generation and back traces of some of our ancestors are likely not be found in our own DNA….so not all of our 'parents' have passed on stuff to us at least physically. http://gcbias.org/2013/11/11/how-does-your-number-of-genetic-ancestors-grow-back-over-time/Simon Southerton will be totally bummed to hear that!
Kenngo1969 Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) Apologies if this has already been brought up. (I don't have the patience to read the entire thread. ) It seems fairly clear to me, based on uncontroversial (at least to us) Mormon doctrine, that, whatever similarities may exist between spirit and intelligence, they are, nonetheless, two different things: spirits, while they are not physical in the sense that our bodies are, are composed of matter, albeit a type of matter that is "finer" and "purer" than physical matter (see Doctrine and Covenants 131:7-8 ). Intelligence, on the other hand, is "light and truth" (see Doctrine and Covenants 93:29, 30, 36). P.S.: Had to edit out uberkuhl sunglasses-wearing, bubblegum-chewing guy. Sorry. Edited January 25, 2015 by Kenngo1969
Robert F. Smith Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 Poorly worded. Intelligent beings beget others of their own kind and unless you think of their begotten as totally without any intelligence then some intelligence is being begotten by those who beget it.A better way to say what was meant is intelligence is perpetuated, rather than created from out of nothing or coming from nowhere. All kinds of beings have some degree of intelligence and our kind of being, with more intelligence than any other kind of being, begets the most intelligent individuals in all of existence.Someday it might be a good idea to open another school for prophets to teach the importance of choosing words carefully.The intelligence we think of as IQ or smarts is mind-centered and has nothing to do with the usage in the contexts I provided. Of course intelligent beings are begotten in some way, just as you say, even if they are artificial intelligences (machines), and there will always be gradations of IQ. That is not the issue being addressed by Mormon theology. The word "intelligence' in such case might be defined better as nous or entelechy, but even such terms are inadequate. The concept of "intelligence" as used in Mormon theology exists from all eternity to all eternity. It is not perpetuated by anything because is can neither be created nor destroyed. It is a kernal of something which we simply do not understand, but which can be clothed in a spiritual body, and then in a physical body (both of which can presumably be created or destroyed in the sense of being organized or disorganized. This cannot be done with the "intelligence" which Mormon theology places as the ultimate source of life and being. It is beyond human ken, but is coeternal with God.
Stone holm Posted January 25, 2015 Author Posted January 25, 2015 The intelligence we think of as IQ or smarts is mind-centered and has nothing to do with the usage in the contexts I provided. Of course intelligent beings are begotten in some way, just as you say, even if they are artificial intelligences (machines), and there will always be gradations of IQ. That is not the issue being addressed by Mormon theology. The word "intelligence' in such case might be defined better as nous or entelechy, but even such terms are inadequate. The concept of "intelligence" as used in Mormon theology exists from all eternity to all eternity. It is not perpetuated by anything because is can neither be created nor destroyed. It is a kernal of something which we simply do not understand, but which can be clothed in a spiritual body, and then in a physical body (both of which can presumably be created or destroyed in the sense of being organized or disorganized. This cannot be done with the "intelligence" which Mormon theology places as the ultimate source of life and being. It is beyond human ken, but is coeternal with God.I don't think intelligence and an intelligence in the sense we are talking about are not synonymous.
Ahab Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) The intelligence we think of as IQ or smarts is mind-centered and has nothing to do with the usage in the contexts I provided. Of course intelligent beings are begotten in some way, just as you say, even if they are artificial intelligences (machines), and there will always be gradations of IQ. That is not the issue being addressed by Mormon theology. The word "intelligence' in such case might be defined better as nous or entelechy, but even such terms are inadequate. The concept of "intelligence" as used in Mormon theology exists from all eternity to all eternity. It is not perpetuated by anything because is can neither be created nor destroyed. It is a kernal of something which we simply do not understand, but which can be clothed in a spiritual body, and then in a physical body (both of which can presumably be created or destroyed in the sense of being organized or disorganized. This cannot be done with the "intelligence" which Mormon theology places as the ultimate source of life and being. It is beyond human ken, but is coeternal with God.I think that concept of intelligence, in that context, which you say is part of Mormon theology, is a result of a misunderstanding and misrepresentation of what our Lord's prophets had in mind when they were talking about intelligences. And I do understand what you are talking about. Edited January 25, 2015 by Ahab
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