Intelligences And Spirits

[Kenngo1969]

Are you referring to my pre-spirit child intelligence when you say "you"?

 

Then I have a beginning. 

This isn't an agenda-driven question.  I'm a simple man; I can't even begin to wrap my head around such complex topics as quantum mechanics.  I honestly don't think the finite mind can comprehend fully and in their entirety the meaning and implications of the things we've been discussing, so I honestly don't know the answer to what I'm about to ask (and I doubt I could comprehend that answer even if I did know it, either from a theological perspective or from a scientific perspective), but, if Joseph Smith is right that "intelligence cannot be created or made," how can you (we) have had a beginning?  True, the only variety of time human beings are capable of comprehending is linear time, but what if science is right when it posits an infinite number of potential universes/spheres?  Why couldn't you have existed infinitely, in some form and in some other sphere, before your individual intelligence was created, and why couldn't you have existed indefinitely as an individual intelligence, then have existed indefinitely as an individual spirit in premortality before you elected to come here to this Earth?

[Ahab]

Ahab, any thoughts on post 87?

Yeah.

First of all, I think you weren't thinking very seriously about what you were saying and that you can understand what I was talking about.

Secondly, I think you're still being silly.

Thirdly, I would suggest that you think more seriously about what I was saying. About how a child is a part of its parents. About how a child is a perpetuation of the life within both the mother and father, rather than a thing that is then beginning to live, as if it did not live before, as if it didn't already live as a part of its parents. Etc, etc, etc.

And I think you can always ask God if you want to know more about this than you already know.

[pogi]

This isn't an agenda-driven question.  I'm a simple man; I can't even begin to wrap my head around such complex topics as quantum mechanics.  I honestly don't think the finite mind can comprehend fully and in their entirety the meaning and implications of the things we've been discussing, so I honestly don't know the answer to what I'm about to ask (and I doubt I could comprehend that answer even if I did know it, either from a theological perspective or from a scientific perspective), but, if Joseph Smith is right that "intelligence cannot be created or made," how can you (we) have had a beginning?  True, the only variety of time human beings are capable of comprehending is linear time, but what if science is right when it posits an infinite number of potential universes/spheres?  Why couldn't you have existed infinitely, in some form and in some other sphere, before your individual intelligence was created, and why couldn't you have existed indefinitely as an individual intelligence, then have existed indefinitely as an individual spirit in premortality before you elected to come here to this Earth?

 

Perhaps I was not clear,  I do believe that we are eternal with no beginning.  I was pointing out how Ahab's logic gives our individual intelligence a beginning, which I disagree with.

[pogi]

Yeah.

First of all, I think you weren't thinking very seriously about what you were saying and that you can understand what I was talking about.

Secondly, I think you're still being silly.

Thirdly, I would suggest that you think more seriously about what I was saying. About how a child is a part of its parents. About how a child is a perpetuation of the life within both the mother and father, rather than a thing that is then beginning to live, as if it did not live before, as if it didn't already live as a part of its parents. Etc, etc, etc.

And I think you can always ask God if you want to know more about this than you already know.

 

Silly me, thanks for enlightening me that I just need to think more seriously...now it all makes sense

 

Your third point has nothing to do with intelligence.   Your theory on intelligences is not scripture, prophecy or science, but is merely speculation.  Your problem is that you are confusing an intelligence with a spirit child of God.   Even in regards to physical birth and genetic makeup, we all have unique qualities independent of our parents as a result of random mutation.  Our genes are not an exact replica of our parents, we have unique makeup and qualities which did not exist in our parents before us.

 

P.S.  I seriously would like an answer to post 87.  Please be descent enough to answer my serious question which I seriously thought about and not pooh-pooh me.

Edited January 26, 2015 by pogi

[pogi]

Ahab, your theory is wrong in that we did not always exist as a part of God but were "self-existent" as McConkie states.  We did not inherit Godlike capabilities until our spiritual organization or birth to the Father as Lorenzo Snow states.  Our intelligence had no ancestor.  There was a spiritual birth, but no birth of intelligence.  Intelligences and spirit children are two different things.

 

Once again:

 

This intelligence combined with the spirit constitutes a spiritual identity or individual. - Joseph Fielding Smith

If the Lord declares that intelligence...was co-eternal with (not of or by) him and always existed, there is no argument that we can or should present to contradict it (he's speaking to you Ahab). Why he cannot create intelligence is simply because intelligence, like time and space, always existed, and therefore did not have to be created. - Joseph Fielding Smith.

There is something that is not created or made. The scriptures called it "intelligence," which at a certain stage in the pre-existence was organized into a "spirit." Harold B. Lee

Thus, portions of the self-existent spirit element [intelligence] are born as spirit children, or in other words the intelligence which cannot be created or made, because it is self-existent, is organized into intelligences. Bruce R. McConkie.

Our spirit birth gave us godlike capabilities (not our pre-spirt intelligences). We were born in the image of God our Father; He begot us like unto Himself. There is the nature of deity in the composition of our spiritual organization; in our spiritual birth our Father transmitted to us the capabilities, powers and faculties which He Himself possessed -- as much so as the child on its mother's bosom possesses, although in an undeveloped state, the faculties, powers, and susceptibilities of its parent. - Lorenzo Snow

Edited January 26, 2015 by pogi

[Ahab]

In other words, I was God.

More like you were a part of God, and yes I'm talking about before he begat you as a spirit child in heaven. Part of the essence of you was within him, and part of your intelligence was within him and a part of or included with and his intelligence. And I say a part because you did not come from him only but also his wife, your mother, and their parents too, into eternity past. Everything you were and had as a part od you when they begat you came from them...every one in your family tree from your parents back into eternity past.

I then decided to reproduce and divide my intelligence which is apparently divisible and test myself to see if I would obey myself?

He is the one who decided to reproduce and perpetuate the part of himself that is and was part of you when he begat you, combined with the part of you that came from your mother and each one of your and their parents from eternity past. He begat you, not you begat him. Try not to confuse ypurself with him as if you are both the same person. Only a part of you is and was a part of him.

If I was God, why would I need to test myself? My intelligence is perfect!

He sent you here so you could be tested.

I hope you're taking it seriously, even when expressing your sense of humor.

[JLHPROF]

Ahab, your theory is wrong in that we did not always exist as a part of God but were "self-existent" as McConkie states.  We did not inherit Godlike capabilities until our spiritual organization or birth to the Father as Lorenzo Snow states.  Our intelligence had no ancestor.  There was a spiritual birth, but no birth of intelligence.  Intelligences and spirit children are two different things.

 

Once again:

 

This intelligence combined with the spirit constitutes a spiritual identity or individual. - Joseph Fielding Smith

If the Lord declares that intelligence...was co-eternal with (not of or by) him and always existed, there is no argument that we can or should present to contradict it (he's speaking to you Ahab). Why he cannot create intelligence is simply because intelligence, like time and space, always existed, and therefore did not have to be created. - Joseph Fielding Smith.

There is something that is not created or made. The scriptures called it "intelligence," which at a certain stage in the pre-existence was organized into a "spirit." Harold B. Lee

Thus, portions of the self-existent spirit element [intelligence] are born as spirit children, or in other words the intelligence which cannot be created or made, because it is self-existent, is organized into intelligences. Bruce R. McConkie.

Our spirit birth gave us godlike capabilities (not our pre-spirt intelligences). We were born in the image of God our Father; He begot us like unto Himself. There is the nature of deity in the composition of our spiritual organization; in our spiritual birth our Father transmitted to us the capabilities, powers and faculties which He Himself possessed -- as much so as the child on its mother's bosom possesses, although in an undeveloped state, the faculties, powers, and susceptibilities of its parent. - Lorenzo Snow

 

Such a simple doctrine, but just like the Adam-God thread people like to overcomplicate and overthink it.  And this one isn't even controversial.

Intelligences are eternal.  Intelligences were begotten into spirit bodies.  Spirit children met at the council in heaven and (mostly) agreed to the plan of salvation.  Those spirit children were sent to earth to gain physical bodies.  Spirit body + physical body = soul (D&C 88:15).  Eventually spirit body and physical body will be permanently joined.

 

So simple

Intelligence -> Spirit Birth -> Physical Birth ->Resurrection.

[pogi]

Here is how I see it Ahab.  The prophets clearly state that intelligences were "organized" into spirits (spiritual birth).  They say that intelligence is "spirit element".

 

Now think about this.  We (our bodies) are obviously not composed of our parents bodies.  Our physical bodies are composed of external elements which our parents consumed before birth, and which we consume after.  In the same way, our spiritual bodies are not composed of materials (intelligence, or "spirit matter") that were a part of God.  Intelligence is to spirit body as amino acids are to physical bodies. Our bodies, both physical and spiritual, are composed of elements (intelligences and amino acids) which are external to, independent of, and not a part of our parents.  

Edited January 26, 2015 by pogi

[Nofear]

I personally side with a tripartite model. While I might entertain the idea that intelligent matter is the same as spirit matter, for the time being I separate them as distinct. But, I also have a reason for doing so. My current set up:

• Physical matter is currently best described by the Standard Model of Particle Physics.
• Spirit matter is not Standard Model but probably quite analogous to it.
• Intelligent matter is very different from the other two matters. It has the ability to act without being acted upon. This is a necessary condition for free will in the libertarian free will model.

I go further and state that my core identity is a single, indivisible component of intelligent matter. While how my identity manifests is heavily influenced by my physical and spirit body (e.g. memories, perception, etc.) if those two bodies were completely destroyed/disassembled, yet I would still exist. If two personages were atomically recreated and were in all ways identical (in both spirit and physical atoms), yet the two beings would be different because they would have different intelligent matter cores. Those are unique, cannot be created, cannot be destroyed, and are the true fundamental self.

 

 

Yet, none of these ideas are doctrinal and no Mormon has any obligation to adopt them. Indeed, the most popular concept is that intelligent matter is essentially unorganized spirit matter. My free will philosophy doesn't go along with it. I also reject the animism (such as that espoused by Orson Pratt) which asserts that all matter (physical or spirit) is essentially "intelligent" at some level.

 

 

 

[Ahab]

Such a simple doctrine, but just like the Adam-God thread people like to overcomplicate and overthink it. And this one isn't even controversial.

Intelligences are eternal. Intelligences were begotten into spirit bodies. Spirit children met at the council in heaven and (mostly) agreed to the plan of salvation. Those spirit children were sent to earth to gain physical bodies. Spirit body + physical body = soul (D&C 88:15). Eventually spirit body and physical body will be permanently joined.

So simple

Intelligence -> Spirit Birth -> Physical Birth ->Resurrection.

Once you know where the intelligence was before it was begotten as a spirit child of our most immediate parents in heaven, then you will know what I know as I know it.

I will say it again, that part of us that is what we refer to as our intelligence, which is our individual self, along with the other elements or parts of ourselves, all of that was a part of our most immediate parents in heaven, and all of that was also a part of their parents before them into eternity past.

It is very simple, and we can see very easily where we came from when we look at our family tree. Some people just don't realize what all of that means, apparently.

[pogi]

I personally side with a tripartite model. While I might entertain the idea that intelligent matter is the same as spirit matter, for the time being I separate them as distinct. But, I also have a reason for doing so. My current set up:

• Physical matter is currently best described by the Standard Model of Particle Physics.
• Spirit matter is not Standard Model but probably quite analogous to it.
• Intelligent matter is very different from the other two matters. It has the ability to act without being acted upon. This is a necessary condition for free will in the libertarian free will model.

I go further and state that my core identity is a single, indivisible component of intelligent matter. While how my identity manifests is heavily influenced by my physical and spirit body (e.g. memories, perception, etc.) if those two bodies were completely destroyed/disassembled, yet I would still exist. If two personages were atomically recreated and were in all ways identical (in both spirit and physical atoms), yet the two beings would be different because they would have different intelligent matter cores. Those are unique, cannot be created, cannot be destroyed, and are the true fundamental self.

 

 

Yet, none of these ideas are doctrinal and no Mormon has any obligation to adopt them. Indeed, the most popular concept is that intelligent matter is essentially unorganized spirit matter. My free will philosophy doesn't go along with it. I also reject the animism (such as that espoused by Orson Pratt) which asserts that all matter (physical or spirit) is essentially "intelligent" at some level.

 

I believe similar to you, in that intelligences can act without being acted upon.  As I stated previously, I like to believe that we had a choice in becoming spirit children of God.  I believe that our spirit matter (intelligence) is a single indivisible component and is the building block of self.  God gave it form, identity, prupose, and divine potential.

 

I haven't read Orson Pratt's teaching of "animism", but I do believe that because all spiritual creation is composed of intelligences, that all of creation is free to act and not be acted upon. As the scriptures state that all things are created spiritually before they were created physically, and that the creation was a process of God speaking and the elements obeying.  Even the dust of the Earth is obedient to God according to King Benjamin.  Miracles are nothing more than perfect obedience of the elements to the authority of God. 

Edited January 26, 2015 by pogi

[Robert F. Smith]

I think that concept of intelligence, in that context, which you say is part of Mormon theology, is a result of a misunderstanding and misrepresentation of what our Lord's prophets had in mind when they were talking about intelligences.

And I do understand what you are talking about.

Good.  I was beginning to worry about you.  

[Nofear]

I believe similar to you, in that intelligences can act without being acted upon.  As I stated previously, I like to believe that we had a choice in becoming spirit children of God.  I believe that our spirit matter (intelligence) is a single indivisible component and is the building block of self.  God gave it form, identity, prupose, and divine potential.

 

I haven't read Orson Pratt's teaching of "animism", but I do believe that because all spiritual creation is composed of intelligences, that all of creation is free to act and not be acted upon. As the scriptures state that all things are created spiritually before they were created physically, and that the creation was a process of God speaking and the elements obeying.  Even the dust of the Earth is obedient to God according to King Benjamin.  Miracles are nothing more than perfect obedience of the elements to the authority of God.

It seems our primary difference would be in whether or not accepting a spirit body was a choice. I don't think intelligent matter would be capable of that choice (again, the no memory and single perceptual data point thing). But it's a minor thing and not much up to things.

 

Some comments in the Panpsychism thread which include some comments about the Pratt brothers.

 

Note that there are three terms in use: animism, panpsychism, and hylozoism. They are all pretty similar with some variations (see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hylozoism#Distinction_from_similar_theories). I reject all of them and so am lazily indiscriminate to which term I might use. My bad. /shrug

[Stone holm]

It seems our primary difference would be in whether or not accepting a spirit body was a choice. I don't think intelligent matter would be capable of that choice (again, the no memory and single perceptual data point thing). But it's a minor thing and not much up to things.

 

Some comments in the Panpsychism thread which include some comments about the Pratt brothers.

 

Note that there are three terms in use: animism, panpsychism, and hylozoism. They are all pretty similar with some variations (see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hylozoism#Distinction_from_similar_theories). I reject all of them and so am lazily indiscriminate to which term I might use. My bad. /shrug

If the power of God is the fact that all intelligences respect His authority and are willing to obey it, as suggested in Ether, would that not imply their ability to choose?

[Nofear]

Different ways to interpret things in Ether and elsewhere. One can take a hardcore animist approach to Ether's description of the Earth or one can interpret it as symbolic. One could also assume that intelligent choice applies only to organized intelligences and not to primal, unorganized intelligent matter.

 

Despite my own interpretations and such, I acknowledge that others read scripture and think about things differently and thus see through a different lens as it were.

[Stone holm]

Having trouble understanding the concept of "intelligent matter" that sounds awfully like our normal understanding of matter as completely lacking any intelligence.

[Ahab]

Having trouble understanding the concept of "intelligent matter" that sounds awfully like our normal understanding of matter as completely lacking any intelligence.

You can think of any person or any other kind of living, intelligent being as a form of intelligent matter as long as that living, intelligent being is composed of matter.

An example of a form of matter without any kind of intelligence is, let's say, a rock. Or do you think a rock is intelligent matter?

[Robert F. Smith]

Once you know where the intelligence was before it was begotten as a spirit child of our most immediate parents in heaven, then you will know what I know as I know it.

I will say it again, that part of us that is what we refer to as our intelligence, which is our individual self, along with the other elements or parts of ourselves, all of that was a part of our most immediate parents in heaven, and all of that was also a part of their parents before them into eternity past.

It is very simple, and we can see very easily where we came from when we look at our family tree. Some people just don't realize what all of that means, apparently.

You are certainly free to disagree with standard LDS theology, or to assert your own interpretation of it, but you have not (thus far) been able to articulate the actual nature of the dispute -- except to put people down "who just don't realize what all that means."  I do not know any Mormon theologians who are unable to get it, and they do not share your view.  Who have you been reading who has led you so far astray?

[mfbukowski]

You can think of any person or any other kind of living, intelligent being as a form of intelligent matter as long as that living, intelligent being is composed of matter.

An example of a form of matter without any kind of intelligence is, let's say, a rock. Or do you think a rock is intelligent matter?

Be still, my soul: The waves and winds still know

His voice who ruled them while he dwelt below

.https://www.lds.org/music/library/hymns/be-still-my-soul?lang=eng

The priesthood is the power of God, which is given to man to act in His name. The priesthood of God is timeless. It “was in the beginning, [and] shall be in the end of the world also” (Moses 6:7; see also History of the Church, 3:386). Before this world was created, the premortal Council in Heaven was held under the direction of the priesthood. The formation of the universe and of the world upon which we live was brought to pass—not by chance, but through the power of the priesthood. The great Creator spoke, and the elements obeyed.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1995/10/blessings-of-the-priesthood?lang=eng

President Joseph Fielding Smith taught: “Now this prophet [Mormon] did not mean to say that the Lord has greater concern for and loves the dust of the earth more than he does his children. … The point he is making is that the dust of the earth is obedient. It moveth hither and thither at the command of the Lord. All things are in harmony with his laws. Everything in the universe obeys the law given unto it, so far as I know, except man. Everywhere you look you find law and order, the elements obeying the law given to them, true to their calling

https://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-study-guide-for-home-study-seminary-students/helaman/unit-23-day-2-helaman-11-12?lang=eng

• •

  Jesus Christ created the earth, and all the elements obey Him (see Mark 4:37–41; 6:35–44, 47–52).

   

  https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testament-teacher-resource-manual/the-gospel-according-to-saint-mark/mark-4-6?lang=eng

That's a start anyway

 

[mfbukowski]

This ain't science class, guys, this is Religious Poetry 101.

 

Physics is down the hall.

Edited January 30, 2015 by mfbukowski

[Nofear]

Having trouble understanding the concept of "intelligent matter" that sounds awfully like our normal understanding of matter as completely lacking any intelligence.

Okie dokie. You get hung up on "matter", presumably because of difficulty imaging a form of matter that has properties distinct from that of physical matter. I'm not so bothered (see for example post #28 or post #29). /shrug

 

Nor am I unique here. The Encyclopedia of Mormonism article references the term. For the record, I take the latter viewpoint but understand that many take the former.

Intelligence, however defined, is not created or made (D&C 93:29); it is coeternal with God (TPJS, pp. 353-54). Some LDS leaders have interpreted this to mean that intelligent beings-called intelligences-existed before and after they were given spirit bodies in the premortal existence. Others have interpreted it to mean that intelligent beings were organized as spirits out of eternal intelligent matter, that they did not exist as individuals before they were organized as spirit beings in the premortal existence (Abr. 3:22; JD 7:57; 2:124). The Church has taken no official position on this issue. [EoM: Intelligence]

[Ahab]

You are certainly free to disagree with standard LDS theology, or to assert your own interpretation of it, but you have not (thus far) been able to articulate the actual nature of the dispute -- except to put people down "who just don't realize what all that means." I do not know any Mormon theologians who are unable to get it, and they do not share your view. Who have you been reading who has led you so far astray?

My view that all forms of life are a form of intelligence and that each kind of being perpetuates itself however it does it, with our kind doing it as we do it?

Surely everyone can see where we come from by doing the genealogy research.

[Stone holm]

Okie dokie. You get hung up on "matter", presumably because of difficulty imaging a form of matter that has properties distinct from that of physical matter. I'm not so bothered (see for example post #28 or post #29). /shrug

 

Nor am I unique here. The Encyclopedia of Mormonism article references the term. For the record, I take the latter viewpoint but understand that many take the former.

Hm, the difference between saying something is something other than physical matter is different than saying something is immaterial matter.... Do stones dream?

[Robert F. Smith]

My view that all forms of life are a form of intelligence and that each kind of being perpetuates itself however it does it, with our kind doing it as we do it?

Surely everyone can see where we come from by doing the genealogy research.

None of that really addresses the issue, Ahab.

 

I haven't read it yet, but you might want to have a look at Terryl Givens, Wrestling the Angel: The Foundations of Mormon Thought, volume 1: Cosmos, God, Humanity (Oxford Univ. Press, 2014).

Or you could take a look through Blake Ostler, Exploring Mormon Thought, 4 vols. (SLC: Kofford Books, 2001-2013).

[Ahab]

None of that really addresses the issue, Ahab.

I haven't read it yet, but you might want to have a look at Terryl Givens, Wrestling the Angel: The Foundations of Mormon Thought, volume 1: Cosmos, God, Humanity (Oxford Univ. Press, 2014).

Or you could take a look through Blake Ostler, Exploring Mormon Thought, 4 vols. (SLC: Kofford Books, 2001-2013).

No thanks. I do just fine with revelation from God and this issue is as simple as the story of the birds and the bees.