Intelligences And Spirits

[JAHS]

Somehow our Heavenly Mother fits into the process of creating spirits, otherwise why would we call her mother? If she is a resurrected being of flesh and bone like the Father how does she give birth to a spirit being? Or does she?  

[Freedom]

Really? My reply confuses you...? Let me see if I can drop it down to a more basic version... Nope, can’t. Sorry.

Where in the scriptures does it say that they are different? The scriptures do not ever claim that spirits are not synonymous with intelligence. all the arguments presented here are conjecture without doctrinal support. 

[Nofear]

Intelligence is in an entirely different category from the material sources of spirit and body, almost constituting a philosophical idea or essence.  As Joseph said, “Intelligence, or the light of truth was not created or made, neither indeed can be” (D&C 93:29), but it could certainly be embodied.

 

That is my view point preference as well. Most Mormons want to make spirit matter and intelligent matter the same "stuff" but that position doesn't really work out very well if one bothers to think about it (alas, most Mormons have not bothered to think about it). Being a materialist/physicalist I tend not to view intelligent matter in neo-platonic terms but as an actual something -- but a something that isn't described by the Standard Model of Particle Physics.

[JAHS]

Where in the scriptures does it say that they are different? The scriptures do not ever claim that spirits are not synonymous with intelligence. all the arguments presented here are conjecture without doctrinal support. 

I am pretty sure it's doctrine that God created our spirits.  And the scriptures say that intelligence cannot be created (D&C 93: 29) So there must be a distinction between the two.

 

Spencer W. Kimball wrote, "Our spirit matter was eternal and co-existent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father" (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 5, Salt Lake City, 1969).

 

Marion G. Romney, of the First Presidency, said, "Through that birth process, self-existing intelligence was organized into individual spirit beings" (Ensign 8 [Nov. 1978]:14).

[Freedom]

I am pretty sure it's doctrine that God created our spirits.  And the scriptures say that intelligence cannot be created (D&C 93: 29) So there must be a distinction between the two.

 

Spencer W. Kimball wrote, "Our spirit matter was eternal and co-existent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father" (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 5, Salt Lake City, 1969).

 

Marion G. Romney, of the First Presidency, said, "Through that birth process, self-existing intelligence was organized into individual spirit beings" (Ensign 8 [Nov. 1978]:14).

Find me a verse in the scriptures that says our spirits were created and that there is a difference between a spirit and an intelligence. I am not convinced there is a distinction. I think it is just a belief that has been carried down but may require clarification through more revelation. God the Father is referred to as the father of our spirits (Heb 12: but we just assume that this means that we were born as spirits. Jesus is considered our father as well in that he is the father of our salvation. 

 

Joseph Smith, if we want to mine for quotes, states the following:

...the soul—the mind of man—the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; but it is not so: the very idea lessens man in my estimation...We say that God Himself is a self-existing being...Man does exist upon the same principles...[The Bible] does not say in the Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says, "God made man out of the earth and put into him Adam's spirit, and so became a living body." The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself...Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it has a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal with our Father in heaven.

 

So my position is that we are spirits and we are inteligences. One does not proceed the other. Well, perhaps I am overstating my position. I do not believe it is clear in the scriptures that one proceeds the other. It may well be the case, but I cannot find support of it in the scriptures, and certainly Joseph Smith did not see it this way. 

[Ahab]

Somehow our Heavenly Mother fits into the process of creating spirits, otherwise why would we call her mother? If she is a resurrected being of flesh and bone like the Father how does she give birth to a spirit being? Or does she?

Like in the story of the birds and the bees, a man and a woman create a child together. And the same goes for the most glorious or intelligent of our kind of being. Thus, life or intelligence does not begin and is not created from nothing but is instead perpetuated, and with no ultimate beginning or end because each kind of being or intelligence is eternal.

[JAHS]

Find me a verse in the scriptures that says our spirits were created and that there is a difference between a spirit and an intelligence. I am not convinced there is a distinction. I think it is just a belief that has been carried down but may require clarification through more revelation. God the Father is referred to as the father of our spirits (Heb 12: but we just assume that this means that we were born as spirits. Jesus is considered our father as well in that he is the father of our salvation. 

 

Joseph Smith, if we want to mine for quotes, states the following:

...the soul—the mind of man—the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; but it is not so: the very idea lessens man in my estimation...We say that God Himself is a self-existing being...Man does exist upon the same principles...[The Bible] does not say in the Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says, "God made man out of the earth and put into him Adam's spirit, and so became a living body." The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself...Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it has a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal with our Father in heaven.

 

So my position is that we are spirits and we are inteligences. One does not proceed the other. Well, perhaps I am overstating my position. I do not believe it is clear in the scriptures that one proceeds the other. It may well be the case, but I cannot find support of it in the scriptures, and certainly Joseph Smith did not see it this way. 

Here's a scripture that says our spirits were created:

 

And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air; (Moses 3: 5)

 

So if an intelligence cannot be created as explained in D&C 93: 29 it logically follows (to me) that an intelligence is different from a spirit.

[JLHPROF]

Here's a scripture that says our spirits were created:

 

And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air; (Moses 3: 5)

 

So if an intelligence cannot be created as explained in D&C 93: 29 it logically follows (to me) that an intelligence is different from a spirit.

 

This exactly - Moses 3:5 - spiritual creation vs D&C 93:29 - intelligence cannot be created.  Two entirely different things.

[Stone holm]

Yeah, I think that "intelligence" as an entity is to spirits as spirits as entities are to mortals.  The problem is that the Lord or His Prophets sometimes use the terms differently.

[Ahab]

Yeah, I think that "intelligence" as an entity is to spirits as spirits as entities are to mortals. The problem is that the Lord or His Prophets sometimes use the terms differently.

Yes, that's true, and I've talked to God about that. I'd rather we always call ourselves God, both individually and collectively, but so far all of us aren't willing to be unanimous about that.

[LOSTONE]

Where in the scriptures does it say that they are different? The scriptures do not ever claim that spirits are not synonymous with intelligence. all the arguments presented here are conjecture without doctrinal support. 

 

Freedom,

You make a valid point that all arguments presented here conjectures. However, I see them more as a shae and light debate of opinions on the subject. I was disagree with your comment that son and brother are the same thing and given you are the one who posted the first remark, it is on you to show scripture shows your remark as factual. As to my remark, it was not intended to be based on scripture, but logic. If a man is an only child, he can be a son but not a brother. Unless you are referring to a faith family bases, in which case I would be wrong in my opinion and you would be right. 

[Robert F. Smith]

Where in the scriptures does it say that they are different? The scriptures do not ever claim that spirits are not synonymous with intelligence. all the arguments presented here are conjecture without doctrinal support. 

In your dreams.

[Robert F. Smith]

That is my view point preference as well. Most Mormons want to make spirit matter and intelligent matter the same "stuff" but that position doesn't really work out very well if one bothers to think about it (alas, most Mormons have not bothered to think about it). Being a materialist/physicalist I tend not to view intelligent matter in neo-platonic terms but as an actual something -- but a something that isn't described by the Standard Model of Particle Physics.

So, is intelligence a particle of Dark Energy or Dark Matter?  Or is it even more ethereal?

[Nofear]

Dark Energy does not, to our understanding posses the properties necessary for either spirit matter or intelligent matter. Nor does Dark Matter, though there is more wiggle room there.

 

Having thought about this for some time I have come to the conclusion that intelligent matter is... well, we have no real clue. What it is is different than normal matter (or spirit matter in my opinion). While material, I personally am currently hesitant to use the word "particle" to describe intelligent matter lest I bias my perceptions against options that may exist which are not yet conceived of by mortal man.

[Robert F. Smith]

Dark Energy does not, to our understanding posses the properties necessary for either spirit matter or intelligent matter. Nor does Dark Matter, though there is more wiggle room there.

 

Having thought about this for some time I have come to the conclusion that intelligent matter is... well, we have no real clue. What it is is different than normal matter (or spirit matter in my opinion). While material, I personally am currently hesitant to use the word "particle" to describe intelligent matter lest I bias my perceptions against options that may exist which are not yet conceived of by mortal man.

Truth be told, I conceive of an intelligence (in this context) as something well beyond matter.  The ultimate source of life perhaps, and indestructible, and eternal.  Well beyond the Big Bang or physics.  But I haven't any notion of what that might mean

[longview]

I am pretty sure it's doctrine that God created our spirits.  And the scriptures say that intelligence cannot be created (D&C 93: 29) So there must be a distinction between the two.

 

Spencer W. Kimball wrote, "Our spirit matter was eternal and co-existent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father" (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 5, Salt Lake City, 1969).

 

Marion G. Romney, of the First Presidency, said, "Through that birth process, self-existing intelligence was organized into individual spirit beings" (Ensign 8 [Nov. 1978]:14).

I agree with the above two quotes. The "birth process" entails acquisition of new attributes (even if intelligences were spirits to begin with). We were intelligences eternally. Our first birth happened in the pre-existence when Heavenly Father organized our spirit bodies. Therefore we were intelligences BEFORE we acquired out spirit bodies. Then we are born into mortality where we acquire even more attributes, such as "coarse" or "heavy" matter (as compared with spirit matter) constituting flesh and BLOOD bodies. We can look forward to the resurrection in which we will obtain a glorious body of flesh and BONES.

 

In my opinion, even if intelligences were spirit entities, they may have been formless (or some kind of energy blob).  When intelligences were born as spirit children of God, then they acquired the "anthropomorphic" appearance like unto God's image.

 

Find me a verse in the scriptures that says our spirits were created and that there is a difference between a spirit and an intelligence. I am not convinced there is a distinction. I think it is just a belief that has been carried down but may require clarification through more revelation. God the Father is referred to as the father of our spirits (Heb 12: but we just assume that this means that we were born as spirits. Jesus is considered our father as well in that he is the father of our salvation.

See Abraham 3:

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

 

Joseph Smith, if we want to mine for quotes, states the following:

...the soul—the mind of man—the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; but it is not so: the very idea lessens man in my estimation...We say that God Himself is a self-existing being...Man does exist upon the same principles...[The Bible] does not say in the Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says, "God made man out of the earth and put into him Adam's spirit, and so became a living body." The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself...Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it has a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal with our Father in heaven.

Here Joseph Smith is saying that the spirit body (that was organized by God) had a beginning. BUT the intelligence never had a beginning. Therefore intelligences preceded the creation of spirt bodies. Therefore intelligences have ALWAYS existed (no beginning).

 

So my position is that we are spirits and we are inteligences. One does not proceed the other. Well, perhaps I am overstating my position. I do not believe it is clear in the scriptures that one proceeds the other. It may well be the case, but I cannot find support of it in the scriptures, and certainly Joseph Smith did not see it this way.

As shown above, intelligences DO precede the organization of spirit bodies.

[Freedom]

I agree with the above two quotes. The "birth process" entails acquisition of new attributes (even if intelligences were spirits to begin with). We were intelligences eternally. Our first birth happened in the pre-existence when Heavenly Father organized our spirit bodies. Therefore we were intelligences BEFORE we acquired out spirit bodies. Then we are born into mortality where we acquire even more attributes, such as "coarse" or "heavy" matter (as compared with spirit matter) constituting flesh and BLOOD bodies. We can look forward to the resurrection in which we will obtain a glorious body of flesh and BONES.

 

In my opinion, even if intelligences were spirit entities, they may have been formless (or some kind of energy blob).  When intelligences were born as spirit children of God, then they acquired the "anthropomorphic" appearance like unto God's image.

 

See Abraham 3:

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

 

Here Joseph Smith is saying that the spirit body (that was organized by God) had a beginning. BUT the intelligence never had a beginning. Therefore intelligences preceded the creation of spirt bodies. Therefore intelligences have ALWAYS existed (no beginning).

 

As shown above, intelligences DO precede the organization of spirit bodies.

Not at all. He shows him the intelligence that were organized and among those were the noble and great ones. He then refers to these same intelligence as spirits. These words are synonymous. It is like saying he showed me the children, and he stood among those that were young. Read the quote from Joseph Smith again: he soul—the mind of man—the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; but it is not so

[JAHS]

Not at all. He shows him the intelligence that were organized and among those were the noble and great ones. He then refers to these same intelligence as spirits. These words are synonymous. It is like saying he showed me the children, and he stood among those that were young. Read the quote from Joseph Smith again: he soul—the mind of man—the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; but it is not so

 

Do you have a response for my #32 post where I show using scripture that intelligences and spirits are two separate things? 

[longview]

Not at all. He shows him the intelligence that were organized and among those were the noble and great ones. He then refers to these same intelligence as spirits. These words are synonymous. It is like saying he showed me the children, and he stood among those that were young. Read the quote from Joseph Smith again: he soul—the mind of man—the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; but it is not so

 

I will have to study the original JS quote (you may have redacted parts of it) but I have to go to work in a few minutes.

 

So you strongly disagree with the teachings of Spencer Kimball and Marion Romney?

 

The Bible Dictionary states the following:

Intelligence has several meanings, three of which are: (1) It is the light of truth which gives life and light to all things in the universe. It has always existed. (2) The word intelligences may also refer to spirit children of God. (3) The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children.

[Freedom]

Here's a scripture that says our spirits were created:

 

And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air; (Moses 3: 5)

 

So if an intelligence cannot be created as explained in D&C 93: 29 it logically follows (to me) that an intelligence is different from a spirit.

I find this a weak link. God created man spiritually. The spiritual creation was the planning creation. He planned out his creation before he physically began to great the earth and to start the plan. I am not denying the possibility and I acknowledge that this is commonly taught. I am just not convinced that this is the meaning. Joseph Smith agrees with my opinion on the matter, and his quote comes from the KF discourse which many here accept as scripture. Of course, it is accepted as scripture when it suites their interpretation of doctrine. 

[Freedom]

I will have to study the original JS quote (you may have redacted parts of it) but I have to go to work in a few minutes.

 

So you strongly disagree with the teachings of Spencer Kimball and Marion Romney?

 

The Bible Dictionary states the following:

Intelligence has several meanings, three of which are: (1) It is the light of truth which gives life and light to all things in the universe. It has always existed. (2) The word intelligences may also refer to spirit children of God. (3) The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children.

This is a rather week piece of supporting evidence which lends more support to my perspective so thank for sharing it: The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to...'

 

The doctrine is not clear. We just don't know. The current interpretation is that our spirits were created, that we were born as spirits. This is how the concept of being begotten sons and daughters of God is sometimes interpreted, although it is also interpreted to mean that we are begotten in this manner when we accept the savior. It is a peripheral doctrine that has nothing to do with the plan of salvation and will remain in the realm of speculation until more revelation is received on the matter. 

[longview]

This is a rather week piece of supporting evidence which lends more support to my perspective so thank for sharing it: The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to...'

 

The doctrine is not clear. We just don't know. The current interpretation is that our spirits were created, that we were born as spirits. This is how the concept of being begotten sons and daughters of God is sometimes interpreted, although it is also interpreted to mean that we are begotten in this manner when we accept the savior. It is a peripheral doctrine that has nothing to do with the plan of salvation and will remain in the realm of speculation until more revelation is received on the matter.

I am back from work. Here are more compelling scriptures and quotes that you can chew on . . .

From the King Follett sermon:

The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal [co-eternal] with God himself. I know that my testimony is true; hence, when I talk to these mourners, what have they lost? Their relatives and friends are only separated from their bodies for a short season: their spirits which existed with God have left the tabernacle of clay only for a little moment, as it were; and they now exist in a place where they converse together the same as we do on the earth.

I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it has a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal [co-eternal] with our Father in heaven.

Here JS is making a distinction between intelligence and spirit.  And . . .

 

D&C 93:21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

“Among the spirit children of Elohim, the first-born was and is Jehovah, or Jesus Christ, to whom all others are juniors” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 70).

“We believe absolutely that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, begotten of God, the first-born in the spirit and the only begotten in the flesh; that He is the Son of God just as much as you and I are the sons of our fathers” (Heber J. Grant, “Analysis of the Articles of Faith,” Millennial Star, 5 Jan. 1922, 2).

If Jesus was the First Born among spirit children of God in the pre-existence, then Jesus made the transition from intelligence to spirit body in the image of His Father.  So also did you, me, and all who lived in the pre-existence.

Edited January 22, 2015 by longview

[Nofear]

I am quite fond of the King Follett discourse and believe it to contain some of the most profound truths that Mormonism possesses. It does have some shortcomings -- shortcomings which probably have prevented canonization. It was a talk given in the open air and recorded by four different individuals. Their records are not always complete and some filtering of the recorder is present as they quickly tried to catch the talk. See http://josephsmithpapers.org/site/accounts-of-the-king-follett-sermon for the originals. The version that most of us encounter is an attempt to reconcile and combine the various accounts.

 

In the end, however, we must not fall into the trap of believing in the linguistic purity of expressed ideas. In the early days of the Church words were sometimes used in ways we would not use them today. Definitions and conceptual clarity of the language is something that takes time to coalesce and settle. Furthermore, our scripture usually preserves the formative language and not the settled upon ideas and definitions. When I see a member try to get all Pharisaical or literal about definitions or linguistics in the scriptures I know immediately that they are probably on the wrong track and may well have reached incorrect conclusions. Perhaps no where is this more clear than in discussions about the use of the words intelligence and spirits.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Nofear

[Freedom]

I have read everything you can throw at me. Please don't act like the many born again Christians and Catholics who suppose that they are presenting verses from the bible for the first time and we should be taken aback and surprised to the point of conversion. The concept is ambiguous. 

[JAHS]

I have read everything you can throw at me. Please don't act like the many born again Christians and Catholics who suppose that they are presenting verses from the bible for the first time and we should be taken aback and surprised to the point of conversion. The concept is ambiguous. 

 

You did ask for verses to prove our point, so we gave them to you.