ERayR Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Duane Crowther did one years ago that I thought was pretty good. It is called Life Everlasting. I think.
Kenngo1969 Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 I've said this many times on the Board in various contexts (I got it from Steven R. Covey), and, while I have no way of knowing for sure, I suspect it is as true of Near Death Experiences as it is of any other context in which I've used it: We don't see/experience things as they are; we see/experience them as we are. If that's a sufficient reason to reject any particular account of an NDE, it's a sufficient reason to reject a recounting of any experience. 1
Nofear Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 You might have to be clearer by what you mean "reject a recounting". Do you mean to say all NDE accounts are fraudulent? Do mean to say the individuals experienced something but it is all a mental fabrication of their physical brain? There are quite a few ways of "rejecting". For my own part, I accept that many have experienced something. However, my suspicion is that the vast majority of experiences are not actual events taking place in space and time (either in the physical or spirit world) but more of a virtual experience designed and tailored to assist the individual in the transition of mortality to post-mortality. 1
ERayR Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 You might have to be clearer by what you mean "reject a recounting". Do you mean to say all NDE accounts are fraudulent? Do mean to say the individuals experienced something but it is all a mental fabrication of their physical brain? There are quite a few ways of "rejecting". For my own part, I accept that many have experienced something. However, my suspicion is that the vast majority of experiences are not actual events taking place in space and time (either in the physical or spirit world) but more of a virtual experience designed and tailored to assist the individual in the transition of mortality to post-mortality. No not all. No not a mental fabrication but seen and understood(interpreted) in the context of ones personal paradigm. could be. 1
Raingirl Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 I didn't say they were all false. I am saying that stuff like this is good reason to assume that they are likely to be false unless there is good reason to the contrary and that there is no good reason to assume that they are in fact true by default.Your line of thinking doesn't make any sense to me. Because one person lied about a particular subject, we are to doubt EVERYONE on that subject.Yeah.....Doesn't make any sense. 2
thesometimesaint Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) Everything. Because we have a number of LDS Near Death experience claimants out there that have published their claims, and more often than not, people believe what they say, hook line and sinker, without questioning. I'm saying that questioning these claims should be people's first impulse. Doesn't have much of anything to do with the LDS. We base our religion not on NDE but on the testimonies of he those who witnessed the Savior's Resurrection, Question all you want. There is no way at present to validate any NDE or Resurrection experience. You either believe it or you don't. Edited January 17, 2015 by thesometimesaint
rpn Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Seems pretty farfetched to believe that a six year old made up the entire story (and because he wanted attention)?
Calm Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 It sounds like the dad had more to do with making stuff up than the son, at least from what I read. He was also apparently the only one getting money for it even though the son's name was on the book as he was the one the company had the contract with.
Kenngo1969 Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) Because the post is generalized. And you seem especially offended or critical of me even posting on this subject for some reason.Sorry for the delay in responding ... I just saw this; I think, by and large, that most Mormons who have near-death experiences only share them, if at all, within close-knit circles of family and friends. Generally, they don't write books about them. So that limits sample size on the Mormon Christian side of the equation. Yes, there are accounts that make the rounds via e-mail in Mormondom, but, here again, you're talking about a relatively small sample size, certainly not enough to generalize to Mormons as a whole. Further, I don't think most Mormons, as a rule, are inclined to accept, uncritically, say, an Evangelical Christian's published account of NDE, except to say, "Hmm. So this person says he was clinically dead, went to the other side, and came back. That's interesting." And finally, as for why accounts of NDEs might differ depending on the faith of the person involved, or even among acounts in which those who purportedly experienced them share the same faith, we don't experience most anything as it is; we experience it as we are, bringing our own past experiences, outlook, and so on into the equation. And I'm not offended. As for being critical this is a discussion board. You have blogs. You can choose to post whatever you want on them, and how much attention to pay to what people write in response (if any at all), there. If you don't want anyone to critique your views, with due respect, it would probably be best if you stuck to your blogs. This, by contrast, is a discussion board. Posts here are apt to attract a wide variety of views in response. If you don't want to engage in such discussion or to bother defending your views, don't post here. Your best bet if you don't want any feedback is to keep a personal journal. Edited February 14, 2015 by Kenngo1969
Kevin Christensen Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) Well, of course we have the problem of what to do with this Mormon NDE account: http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1382&index=2 And this guy: https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/097-86.pdf Which led to this stuff: https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-38?lang=eng FWIW Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA Edited February 10, 2015 by Kevin Christensen 2
KevinG Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 My family's only Near Death Experience happened at the birth of our last child. My wife had serious internal bleeding and almost lost her life. She remembers a distinct prompting that she could "come home" if she wanted. Her first thought was. "If I left my husband alone with 7 children he would kill me!" She elected to stay. True story. 4
DragonLancer Posted February 10, 2015 Author Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) Your line of thinking doesn't make any sense to me. Because one person lied about a particular subject, we are to doubt EVERYONE on that subject.Yeah.....Doesn't make any sense. It makes perfect sense. There are a lot of people out there that assume that anything they hear is true, just because it was an NDE. I am simply saying, one should assume something to be false unless one gets a distinct impression after a long process of prayer and fasting about a particular experience. An assumption of falseness and skepticism should be one's first assumption, and one should never take it at face value. It is not saying that someone should never believe. Its saying that an assumption of falseness and skepticism should precede any process of trying to figure out if something like this is true, because there are so many reasons that they probably are not true. In other words, your eventual belief in the few ones out there that are indeed true should be based on a long process of eventual spiritual discernment rather than giving these people the benefit of the doubt automatically. Edited February 10, 2015 by DragonLancer
thesometimesaint Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 It makes perfect sense. There are a lot of people out there that assume that anything they hear is true, just because it was an NDE. I am simply saying, one should assume something to be false unless one gets a distinct impression after a long process of prayer and fasting about a particular experience. An assumption of falseness and skepticism should be one's first assumption, and one should never take it at face value. It is not saying that someone should never believe. Its saying that an assumption of falseness and skepticism should precede any process of trying to figure out if something like this is true, because there are so many reasons that they probably are not true. In other words, your eventual belief in the few ones out there that are indeed true should be based on a long process of eventual spiritual discernment rather than giving these people the benefit of the doubt automatically. I think would lead to a sense of cynicism. I'm willing to take theirs as their experience, but one that may not be applicable to anyone but themselves.
Rock_N_Roll Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 As to NDE's but not LDS ones and nevertheless written by LDS writers, try:Glimpses Beyond Death's Door by Brent Topp I second this. Written by my Stake President. It's a good read.
Rain Posted February 11, 2015 Posted February 11, 2015 It makes perfect sense. There are a lot of people out there that assume that anything they hear is true, just because it was an NDE.I am simply saying, one should assume something to be false unless one gets a distinct impression after a long process of prayer and fasting about a particular experience. An assumption of falseness and skepticism should be one's first assumption, and one should never take it at face value. It is not saying that someone should never believe. Its saying that an assumption of falseness and skepticism should precede any process of trying to figure out if something like this is true, because there are so many reasons that they probably are not true. In other words, your eventual belief in the few ones out there that are indeed true should be based on a long process of eventual spiritual discernment rather than giving these people the benefit of the doubt automatically.I'd rather just not make an assumption at all.
Tacenda Posted February 11, 2015 Posted February 11, 2015 My family's only Near Death Experience happened at the birth of our last child. My wife had serious internal bleeding and almost lost her life. She rhiemembers a distinct prompting that she could "come home" if she wanted. Her first thought was. "If I left my husband alone with 7 children he would kill me!" She elected to stay.True story.Stories like yours give me hope! 1
Bernard Gui Posted February 11, 2015 Posted February 11, 2015 The only person to whom a NDE should have meaning is that person.Some things are best left unsaid, but treasured up in the heart. 1
MormonFreeThinker Posted February 11, 2015 Posted February 11, 2015 The only person to whom a NDE should have meaning is that person.Some things are best left unsaid, but treasured up in the heart. But some NDEs could be hallucinations, the drugs that patients receive sometimes make them hallucinate stuff. The human brain is powerful Many children claim to remember previous lives (Reincarnation)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgOBfCrxS3U The church has no official position on NDEs, so we must be careful.
Bernard Gui Posted February 11, 2015 Posted February 11, 2015 The church has no official position on NDEs, so we must be careful. Which is why they are best held close to the heart. 1
MormonFreeThinker Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 Which is why they are best held close to the heart. Is wishful thinking a good method to find truth?
Kevin Christensen Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 In The Light Beyond, Raymond Moody comments that the most prominent of the Western religions to accept NDEs as providing insight into the afterlife is the Church of the Latter-day Saints. It turns out that this is due to the LDS teaching of the afterlife in the scriptures comes primarily through Alma, whose conversion, it happens, occurred "nigh unto death." And we shouldn't neglect the important influence of one Brigham Young, whose experience at Winter Quarters is the best explaination for the observations that appear in The Spirit World chapter of the Teachings of Brigham Young Priesthood Manual. And also for the response of Jedediah M. Grant when he reported his experience to Heber C. Kimball. "Why, it was just as Brigham has told us." FWIW Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA
Guest Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/style-blog/wp/2015/01/15/boy-who-came-back-from-heaven-going-back-to-publisher/?hpid=z5 http://pulpitandpen.org/2015/01/13/the-boy-who-came-back-from-heaven-recants-story-rebukes-christian-retailers/ http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/01/15/377589757/boy-says-he-didn-t-go-to-heaven-publisher-says-it-will-pull-bookSupposed to include commentary...helps us know where you stand. Or is the thread title where you stand? Could you let us (me) know where to stand on the issue.
DragonLancer Posted February 13, 2015 Author Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) In The Light Beyond, Raymond Moody comments that the most prominent of the Western religions to accept NDEs as providing insight into the afterlife is the Church of the Latter-day Saints. It turns out that this is due to the LDS teaching of the afterlife in the scriptures comes primarily through Alma, whose conversion, it happens, occurred "nigh unto death." And we shouldn't neglect the important influence of one Brigham Young, whose experience at Winter Quarters is the best explaination for the observations that appear in The Spirit World chapter of the Teachings of Brigham Young Priesthood Manual. And also for the response of Jedediah M. Grant when he reported his experience to Heber C. Kimball. "Why, it was just as Brigham has told us."FWIWKevin ChristensenCanonsburg, PA I have no doubt about the historic reliability of these sources you speak of. I'm talking about more recent ones that follow a certain NDE mania among the more gullible segments of the LDS population who cling to any and every claim. Certain claims made by people like Spencer in Pontius' book and Julie Rowe, as examples of things that people ought to question, not the least of which are the doctrinal problems in their books. But the fact that the claims in their books are obvious lies are real problems. That segment of the population was itching for things like this, and the authors of these books knew it, and took advantage of the phenomenon. Edited February 13, 2015 by DragonLancer
ERayR Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) It makes perfect sense. There are a lot of people out there that assume that anything they hear is true, just because it was an NDE. I am simply saying, one should assume something to be false unless one gets a distinct impression after a long process of prayer and fasting about a particular experience. Your approach is so pessimistic. Why not use the other approach and assume it is true unless one gets a distinct impression after a long process of prayer and fasting about a particular experience. Edited February 13, 2015 by ERayR
DragonLancer Posted February 13, 2015 Author Posted February 13, 2015 Your approach is so pessimistic. Why not use the other approach and assume it is true unless one gets a distinct impression after a long process of prayer and fasting about a particular experience. You are perfectly free to use whatever approach you please. We are living in a society full of people that are out to make a buck and have no scruples, and anyone that lives in Happy Valley by Utah Lake ought to know this. I live right on the border almost between that valley and Salt Lake Valley. I have seen the fraud, and I have been defrauded by good Temple Recommend carrying Mormons who bless their children on Sunday, who owe me $17,000. I have been led astray by a false prophet in my time and have come back wiser to tell the tale. If you want to take that risk, more power to you. Or you can learn from someone who has been a fool and who has been fooled, who speaks from the wisdom of experience. Take it or leave it I guess.
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