ERayR Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 You are perfectly free to use whatever approach you please. We are living in a society full of people that are out to make a buck and have no scruples, and anyone that lives in Happy Valley by Utah Lake ought to know this. I live right on the border almost between that valley and Salt Lake Valley. I have seen the fraud, and I have been defrauded by good Temple Recommend carrying Mormons who bless their children on Sunday, who owe me $17,000. I have been led astray by a false prophet in my time and have come back wiser to tell the tale. If you want to take that risk, more power to you. Or you can learn from someone who has been a fool and who has been fooled, who speaks from the wisdom of experience. Take it or leave it I guess. I am well aware the choice is mine, What you have failed to notice, it seems, is that I did not say to give these people your life savings. I find it much more rewarding to be optomistic but very cautious.
carbon dioxide Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 I don't think I have a right to question whether a person had NDE as it is a personal experience by the person himself and there is no way for them to prove they had it. The First Vision is sort of like a NDE for JS. He was not dead but he reported on what he saw and nobody else was there to verify it. I will listen to the experiences. See what themes are common and what are unique. Apply what is said to the standard works and teachings of the prophets. I don't use any NDE as source of truth but I do believe something is going on. Far beyond the claims that its all with the brain and oxygen and all that stuff. I might buy the light and the tunnel part but some are very detailed, seeing loved ones that have passed, ect. 1
carbon dioxide Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 Duane Crowther did one years ago that I thought was pretty good. It is called Life Everlasting. I think.I have that book. I like it because he correlates the standard works, statements by latter day prophets, and incorporates some NDE that fits with the teachings. Not all NDE are true or real but that does not mean all of them are false.
MormonFreeThinker Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) In The Light Beyond, Raymond Moody comments that the most prominent of the Western religions to accept NDEs as providing insight into the afterlife is the Church of the Latter-day Saints. It turns out that this is due to the LDS teaching of the afterlife in the scriptures comes primarily through Alma, whose conversion, it happens, occurred "nigh unto death." And we shouldn't neglect the important influence of one Brigham Young, whose experience at Winter Quarters is the best explaination for the observations that appear in The Spirit World They were probably visions, probably not NDEs. Book of Mormon teaches that Alma 40:11 "Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life." Why not use the other approach and assume it is true unless one gets a distinct impression after a long process of prayer and fasting about a particular experience. Do you believe the children that claim to remember their "previous lives" on Earth? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgOBfCrxS3U I find it much more rewarding to be optomistic but very cautious. Wishful thinking makes people feel better, but it is not useful. I see no evidence for NDEs and no evidence for reincarnation, and the church does not have an official position, so why believe experiences that the church says nothing about? Edited February 14, 2015 by MormonFreeThinker
Bernard Gui Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) Is wishful thinking a good method to find truth?Well, since there is no way to prove or verify such an experience or to convince someone that you experienced one, perhaps it is best to treasure it in your heart. I'm not sure how this is wishful thinking. Edited February 14, 2015 by Bernard Gui
wtrdog Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 By that logic we should assume all claims of rape are in fact false because there have been false claims. Yeah, except the thing of rape is well established and provable whereas such a thing as NDE has never been proven even once and has very dubious support. In the case of rape if there is literally no evidence beyond the alleged victim's say-so, then no, it should not be acted on.
carbon dioxide Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 Yeah, except the thing of rape is well established and provable whereas such a thing as NDE has never been proven even once and has very dubious support. In the case of rape if there is literally no evidence beyond the alleged victim's say-so, then no, it should not be acted on.The beauty of a NDE is that it is a personal experience for the individual. It does not have to be "proven" to someone else for the experience to be valid for the person who had it of which it was directed at. If a person really has a NDE and they tell it to you and you reject it, it is your loss, not theirs. 1
DragonLancer Posted February 14, 2015 Author Posted February 14, 2015 Well, since there is no way to prove or verify such an experience or to convince someone that you experienced one, perhaps it is best to treasure it in your heart. I'm not sure how this is wishful thinking. I think that is my point is that these people insist on publishing it rather than keeping it sacred and secret. And accuse you of this or that and call you names when you refuse to acknowledge the validity of it. Some of them do speaking tours, etc. They set themselves up as prophets basically, in a John Dehlin or Denver Snuffer-esque way, hoping for followers.
carbon dioxide Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) Wishful thinking makes people feel better, but it is not useful. I see no evidence for NDEs and no evidence for reincarnation, and the church does not have an official position, so why believe experiences that the church says nothing about? I would suggest that most people who have had a NDE also asserted there was no evidence for NDE before they had them. The Church keeps a neutral stance on the subject. NDE are personal experiences and the content of them for an individual is not used to establish doctrine in the church. God allows people to receive testimony and a witness of the truth in diverse ways. Who am I to say that a person did not need a NDE for something? Who am I to say that NDE don't exist because I have yet to experience it? I don't believe all claims of NDE are true but likewise I can't assert that all of them are false. Paul refers to an experience that is similar to a NDE. He says he visits the Celestial Kingdom but he could not tell whether he was in or not in the body. How would Paul be able to prove his experience to another person. He made a claim but impossible for him to prove. All we have is to take his word for it. That is really nothing different than a person who has with a NDE. Edited February 14, 2015 by carbon dioxide 1
wtrdog Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 The beauty of a NDE is that it is a personal experience for the individual. It does not have to be "proven" to someone else for the experience to be valid for the person who had it of which it was directed at. If a person really has a NDE and they tell it to you and you reject it, it is your loss, not theirs.I think Paul Dunn and Floyd Weston would agree.
The Nehor Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 Yeah, except the thing of rape is well established and provable whereas such a thing as NDE has never been proven even once and has very dubious support. In the case of rape if there is literally no evidence beyond the alleged victim's say-so, then no, it should not be acted on.The thing of rape?
Mark Beesley Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 It's been a while since I've posted, but this topic caught my eye. I think I understand where DragonLancer is coming from, and for some people a healthy dose of cynicism may be the way to go. I prefer to think the best off people until they give me reason not to. People who share an NDE are no different. I will generally trust in their integrity until I have no reason to.Th thing I find most fascinating about NDE accounts is how varied they can be. It shows me that God communicates to us individually according to our understanding, and that mortality really matters. The fact that there is not universal agreement amongst all NDE stories that at the moment of death there is an epiphany and they all have to exclaim, "Ouch! The Mormons were right!" should give us pause, and a lot more tolerance for others. 3
ERayR Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 It's been a while since I've posted, but this topic caught my eye. I think I understand where DragonLancer is coming from, and for some people a healthy dose of cynicism may be the way to go. I prefer to think the best off people until they give me reason not to. People who share an NDE are no different. I will generally trust in their integrity until I have no reason to.Th thing I find most fascinating about NDE accounts is how varied they can be. It shows me that God communicates to us individually according to our understanding, and that mortality really matters. The fact that there is not universal agreement amongst all NDE stories that at the moment of death there is an epiphany and they all have to exclaim, "Ouch! The Mormons were right!" should give us pause, and a lot more tolerance for others. Agreed. I have this theory that when we die and get to the other side we are going to find it pretty much as we imagined before we died. The Baptists will say see I told you so. Also the Catholics, the Mormons and on and on. The ones in for a real surprise, as I see it, will be the atheists. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 It's been a while since I've posted, but this topic caught my eye. I think I understand where DragonLancer is coming from, and for some people a healthy dose of cynicism may be the way to go. I prefer to think the best off people until they give me reason not to. People who share an NDE are no different. I will generally trust in their integrity until I have no reason to.Th thing I find most fascinating about NDE accounts is how varied they can be. It shows me that God communicates to us individually according to our understanding, and that mortality really matters. The fact that there is not universal agreement amongst all NDE stories that at the moment of death there is an epiphany and they all have to exclaim, "Ouch! The Mormons were right!" should give us pause, and a lot more tolerance for others.Good post, and nice to Cyber-see you!
Kenngo1969 Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 My family's only Near Death Experience happened at the birth of our last child. My wife had serious internal bleeding and almost lost her life. She remembers a distinct prompting that she could "come home" if she wanted. Her first thought was. "If I left my husband alone with 7 children he would kill me!" She elected to stay. True story.It's funny how mortality constrains our thinking: While I doubt your wife was using the word "kill" literally, on the other hand, did she stop to think how hard it is to kill a spirit or a resurrected being? (Personally, though I may never meet her in this life, and though my interaction with you has been limited to Cyber space, I'm glad she made the choice she did. )
MormonFreeThinker Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 I would suggest that most people who have had a NDE also asserted there was no evidence for NDE before they had them. The Church keeps a neutral stance on the subject. Jane Aspell had a NDE, she believed it, she no longer believes it, she is now a cognitive scientist. http://www.premierchristianradio.com/Shows/Saturday/Unbelievable/Episodes/Unbelievable-The-curious-case-of-Eben-Alexander-near-death-and-out-of-body-experiences Book of Mormon teaches "that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life" . Who am I to say that a person did not need a NDE for something? I am not saying that all of them are false, we simply do not know, especially if we have not experience one. So I am agnostic about NDEs, we don't know. Who are you to say that reincarnation claims are false? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgOBfCrxS3U
carbon dioxide Posted February 15, 2015 Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) Book of Mormon teaches "that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life"That passage may be generally true but may have exceptions. For example where does Lazarus fit in that. He was not resurrected. Edited February 15, 2015 by carbon dioxide
MormonFreeThinker Posted February 15, 2015 Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) That passage may be generally true but may have exceptions. For example where does Lazarus fit in that. He was not resurrected. The passage I quoted is not talking about resurrection, it is saying that the spirits of all humans are "taken home to that God" James 2:26 says “The body without the spirit is dead” It doesn't say "body without spirit is near death" I am not saying that all NDEs are false, I am simply agnotic about NDEs because I have not seen any evidence for them, I have not experienced one. I cannot say that I know for myself that some NDEs are true. What about his claims? Do you believe what children like him say? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgOBfCrxS3U. Edited February 15, 2015 by MormonFreeThinker
bcuzbcuz Posted February 15, 2015 Posted February 15, 2015 The passage I quoted is not talking about resurrection, it is saying that the spirits of all humans are "taken home to that God" James 2:26 says “The body without the spirit is dead” It doesn't say "body without spirit is near death" I am not saying that all NDEs are false, I am simply agnotic about NDEs because I have not seen any evidence for them, I have not experienced one. I cannot say that I know for myself that some NDEs are true. What about his claims? Do you believe what children like him say?.I'm wondering how many that believe in NDE also believe in vampires and previous lives?
strappinglad Posted February 15, 2015 Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) Even Joseph Smith acknowledged the difficulty in believing without actual personal experience. “You don't know me; you never knew my heart. No man knows my history. I cannot tell it: I shall never undertake it. I don't blame any one for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I would not have believed it myself. I never did harm any man since I was born in the world. My voice is always for peace.” ― Joseph Smith Jr. Yet Christ counted as blessed one who believed without seeing. I wonder why. If MFT was to be involved in an horrendous car accident( heaven forbid) and experienced an NDE, he could then have some evidence for NDEs but would still be unable to convince others unless there were medical records showing no pulse and no brain activity for several minutes. Even so, there would be many who might claim it was all in neurochemical confusion . Edited February 16, 2015 by strappinglad 1
carbon dioxide Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 Agreed. I have this theory that when we die and get to the other side we are going to find it pretty much as we imagined before we died. The Baptists will say see I told you so. Also the Catholics, the Mormons and on and on. The ones in for a real surprise, as I see it, will be the atheists.Don't forget the Muslims who blow themselves up to kill a bunch of people for 72 virgins.
carbon dioxide Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 What about his claims? Do you believe what children like him say? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgOBfCrxS3U. I may listen to the claims. I may not necessarily believe them but it is not for me to suggest that they are lying unless I have good reasoning. A child will retell an experience on the level of a child. They may have an experience of some sort but not understand it very well or misinterpret it. In regards to NDE, I would find it more instructive to look at a bunch of them and find what areas they have in common and areas that are different and find some significance in that rather than one specific example and draw conclusions from it.
MormonFreeThinker Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) A child will retell an experience on the level of a child. What about space alien abduction claims? Many sincerely say that aliens abducted them, do you believe that?Medication can make people hallucinate stuff, hallucination is the best explanation for some NDEs. Some NDEs can be real, but so far I have no seen any evidence that at least one is real, I cannot say I know for myself. I would find it more instructive to look at a bunch of them and find what areas they have in common and areas that are different and find some significance in that rather than one specific example and draw conclusions from it. Many alien abduction accounts are similar. Edited February 16, 2015 by MormonFreeThinker
Jeanne Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 I'm wondering how many that believe in NDE also believe in vampires and previous lives?Or visitations of beings and angels..
Jeanne Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 How would we ever learn if we did not share...I mean share comfortably. There is sacred and then a teaching conversation that allows others to be accepted and learn.
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