Excommunicatin'

[VideoGameJunkie]

I hope John enjoys Spirit Prison.

Edited January 23, 2015 by VideoGameJunkie

[Kenngo1969]

I hope John enjoys Spirit Prison.

The man's life isn't over yet.  As long as he lives, he still has an opportunity to repent.

[VideoGameJunkie]

What if he died before his disciplinary council? Then he wouldn't be ex'd right? They wouldn't dare excommunicate a dead man would they? haha kind of like a Korihor moment.

[carbon dioxide]

What if he died before his disciplinary council? Then he wouldn't be ex'd right? They wouldn't dare excommunicate a dead man would they? haha kind of like a Korihor moment.

There would be no reason to ex him he died.  The matter would be taken to the appropriate authorities in the Spirit World to deal with John.

Edited January 23, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[Tacenda]

It may have been said but I just read on another forum that John's SP's father died, so therefore the need to postpone two weeks. Very sad and really terrible that he has to deal with all this at the same time of losing a loved one.

[Svawd]

I hope John enjoys Spirit Prison.

comments like this might put you right there with him.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I always assumed I was going to spirit prison anyway because of my 20s so I'll make sure he has a friend in me.

[The Nehor]

comments like this might put you right there with him.

But he already has you for company. We wouldn't want it to get crowded.

[Kenngo1969]

I always assumed I was going to spirit prison anyway because of my 20s so I'll make sure he has a friend in me.

Why?  Didn't you repent?  Can't you?  Don't you want to?  (Of course, you don't owe me the answers to any of these questions; I'm just trying to get you to think a bit about the implications of what you're saying.  (See Alma 12:24).)

[Scott Lloyd]

Oh I see.

 

So I put my own justification on it to justify my views but Cal, Smac and maybe you don't.  Really?

 

Or rather because they and you confirm each others views you say this.

 

Or rather why not take Pres Uchdorf for face value rather than spin it as Smac and you are to justify your hard liner and narrow views?  

 

I can tell you. Because it shakes up your world view.

Oops, hit the rep button instead of the quote button by mistake. Merry Christmas.

Your phrase "take it at face value" implies a deliberate refusal to read for comprehension or deeper meaning or correct understanding. It's observing the letter and not the spirit. Again, it's a way to rationalize taking something out of context.

[Scott Lloyd]

Yes P.... because as I note to Mr Lloyd it would cause you to reevaluate your hardline views.

 

Confirmation bias is a wonderful thing.

But really you have no more inside knowledge of what Pres Uchdorf meant than I do.  Thus, my interpretation is as valid as yours.

 

Ain't it great?

He strikes me as having a better handle on it than someone who boasts of taking it at "face value".

[VideoGameJunkie]

Kenngo, I repent every day and desire complete and total forgiveness. I've even talked to my Bishop about everything bad I've done. But then Svawd said my comments might send me there, so I went with saying how my bad works would be the reason for me to go there, not some comment on a message board.

[mormonnewb]

you're just reinforcing my point. We are being told that he wants to stay in the church so much. But he is not doing a thing to keep himself in the church he supposedly loves. Instead he is positioning himself to profit from his excommunication.

not everyone is willing to sell their soul for profit.

and if he does go around all the networks, good. You can't kick the church Anywhere but up. No pr is bad pr.

If you or the Church believed that all PR is good PR, you wouldn't be so eager to get rid of him.

[smac97]

Or rather why not take Pres Uchdorf for face value rather than spin it as Smac and you are to justify your hard liner and narrow views?

Here is what I said about President Uchtdorf:

There is nothing in the "face value" of President Uchtdorf's words to support the proposition that he advocates that local leaders should abdicate their responsibilities as judges in Israel and let apostasy run rampant and unchecked in the Church. I think to suggest or imply otherwise is to wrest his words.

Upon further review, I find that I am pretty darn comfortable with my position relative to Pres. Uchtdorf's comments. I don't think it's a "spin" on his words to state that he does not advocate that local leaders should abdicate their responsibilities as judges in Israel and let apostasy run rampant and unchecked in the Church.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Kenngo1969]

If you or the Church believed that all PR is good PR, you wouldn't be so eager to get rid of him.

PR isn't the only driver (or even the principle one) that drives decisions such as this.  Thanks fer playin'!

[mormonnewb]

I think your biggest struggle with this issue is you believe the church should base its doctrines on how the secular world will view them.

"Doesn't the church know it won't be hip anymore if it keeps doing this..." seems to sum up your biggest gripe with it and if that's true then the reason your not getting a lot of agreement from others is that the church leadership and most members don't want the church to sacrifice its doctrine to be hip.

I'm not the one who created the I'm a Mormon campaign. Nor did I spend the fall trying to boost box office results for the Meet the Mormons movie. Those were efforts by our Church leaders, who are FAR more concerned with creating a "hip Church" than I ever could be (I didn't become a Mormon to improve my "street cred").

As for asking to the sacrifice of doctrine, which doctrine is that -- the doctrine of arbitrary and random church disciplinio? To my knowledge, there is no doctrine that REQUIRES his SP to ex him. It is purely a [bad] judgment call. Now, as for the Church's "unhip" stances on SSM and OW, you have a point. Those won't change until the boycotts against BYU come (my prophetic prediction is sometime around 2019).

[mormonnewb]

what is wise about leaving a wolf with the flock?

If ANY member can singlehandedly override a lifetime of Church teachings, then Dehlin is the LEAST of this Church's problems. Is the only teason that your testimony is intact is that you've never listened to Mormon Stories? What could Dehlin or ANY member say that would make you disregard your own experiences and the teachings that you've received directly from the mouths of the Lord's anointed?

So why do you think that the saints are such weak sheep, so easily led astray? Aren't most saints as strong in the Gosprl as you are? Those who listen to Dehlin, seek him out and find them, most often in a desperate attempt to hold onto their withering testimonies. Ex'ing JD isn't going to prevent disaffections. It will simply drive these members to someone who might be even less inclined to encourage the sheep to stay with the flock.

Edited January 23, 2015 by mormonnewb

[rodheadlee]

If you or the Church believed that all PR is good PR, you wouldn't be so eager to get rid of him.

You are mistaking us for somebody that cares about PR. We can only bring the message of the gospel, it's up to each person to recognize the truth of it and act accordingly. Selling the gospel like a used car or a financial plan is not going to work. Living the gospel is a lifetime commitment that actually extends into all eternity.

[why me]

I'm not the one who created the I'm a Mormon campaign. Nor did I spend the fall trying to boost box office results for the Meet the Mormons movie. Those were efforts by our Church leaders, who are FAR more concerned with creating a "hip Church" than I ever could be (I didn't become a Mormon to improve my "street cred").

As for asking to the sacrifice of doctrine, which doctrine is that -- the doctrine of arbitrary and random church disciplinio? To my knowledge, there is no doctrine that REQUIRES his SP to ex him. It is purely a [bad] judgment call. Now, as for the Church's "unhip" stances on SSM and OW, you have a point. Those won't change until the boycotts against BYU come (my prophetic prediction is sometime around 2019).

I think that all churches have a PR department on the national level, espeically when they are in the news often. And the lds church is a world wide church, not just an American church. As a world wide church the church cannot have people shooting their mouths off in the media to the detriment of the church itself. And members cannot take to the airwaves and speak about how stalinist the church is. Or Maoist. Of course, if one does not like the church one can support such statements or even defend the right of 'famous' lds people to say it publically on youtube. And what is a hip church? Have you been to church lately? Nothing hip about it at all....only people attempting to live accordingly to what the gospel says they ought to live. However, when your stake has bon jovi perform some hip church songs please invite us along.

 

What do you think of the pope traveling around the world kissing babies in front of the media? Is it PR? Or in scandinavia where the lutheran churches have a monopoly on religion, having their leaders appearing on state tv to give a message or holding campaigns to get more people to come to the fold? Is it PR? The lds church has much to overcome, including the perception of who mormons are and what they believe. Such is PR. 

Edited January 23, 2015 by why me

[mormonnewb]

Giving someone who is pretty sure that Christ doesn't exist and openly teaches that, and who doesn't believe in the Atonement, a calling in Christ's church is not 'wise and compassionate'.  

 

Christ taught that a house divided against itself cannot stand.  How could Christ's true church have someone in a calling when they were actively teaching the doctrines of the devil (and denying the need for a Savior and that Jesus is the Christ is a doctrine of the devil, regardless of how nice someone is who espouses it) and not be divided against itself?

For one, let's be clear. I'm very glad that the Church did not attempt to co-opt my dear brother. And I strongly suspect that he would seem through the attempt. However, it would have been a good strategic move for the Church to try.

And that doesn't mean that you put Him in the 15 or make him a teacher in any way. You're right. That would be silly. However, it might have made good sense to say, "Brother Dehlin, we see that you have great connections within the NOM community, we'd like you to be our liaison. Bring us their concerns and let's work to resolve them where possible. In turn, we'd like you to, from time to time, help us communicate our desire to bring them back into the fold. Let's work TOGETHER to make this Church a place for ALL Mormons."

This is what leaders do ALL of the time. It's why Presidents of both parties will meet with our beloved leaders. For example, I really don't think that Obama thinks that Monson voted for him. However, he was quick to meet with him and extend an olive branch because it's hard enough to govern 300 million Americans. Why would he want to make an enemy of the leader of 6 million of them? Make nice. Try to find areas of agreement. And build the foundation of a relationship so that the other party will approach you with words before resorting to more drastic measures.

Now, I know for some of you, this level of diplomacy is beneath your Prophet. He should speak and we should obey. But I think Christ once said something about being wise as serpents and innocent as doves.

[mormonnewb]

I think that all churches have a PR department on the national level, espeically when they are in the news often. And the lds church is a world wide church, not just an American church. As a world wide church the church cannot have people shooting their mouths off in the media to the detriment of the church itself. And members cannot take to the airwaves and speak about how stalinist the church is. Or Maoist. Of course, if one does not like the church one can support such statements or even defend the right of 'famous' lds people to say it publically on youtube. And what is a hip church? Have you been to church lately? Nothing hip about it at all....only people attempting to live accordingly to what the gospel says they ought to live. However, when your stake has bon jovi perform some hip church songs please invite us along.

 

What do you think of the pope traveling around the world kissing babies in front of the media? Is it PR? Or in scandinavia where the lutheran churches have a monopoly on religion, having their leaders appearing a state tv to give a message or holding campaigns to get more people to come to the fold? Is it PR? The lds church has much to overcome, including the perception of who mormons are and what they believe. Such is PR.

We are in complete agreement. All Churches engage in PR. We just disagree as to whether ex'ing Dehlin is good PR.

In fact, we might not even disagree there. You might think that it's simply worth the PR hit to rid ourselves of the "Dehlin menace."

I think that the Church is trying to kill a mosquito with TNT and that it will cause more external (and internal) damage than is being caused by Dehlin's activism. I'm also of the opinion that Dehlin is good for the Church because it's about time that Mormons begin having internal discussions about problematic doctrines/practices, so that maybe, just maybe, we'll be only a decade behind God's "untrue" churches in getting the memo about SSM, OW, etc.

[Calm]

. However, it might have made good sense to say, "Brother Dehlin, we see that you have great connections within the NOM community, we'd like you to be our liaison. Bring us their concerns and let's work to resolve them where possible. In turn, we'd like you to, from time to time, help us communicate our desire to bring them back into the fold. Let's work TOGETHER to make this Church a place for ALL Mormons.".

How do you know something like this didn't happen?

[why me]

How do you know something like this didn't happen?

This may have happened. He was in discussion with brother holland. And he did return to the fold. Maybe an agreement was made. But then he left the fold again and became a critic. Thus, the meeting with the SP. It could be just what happened.

 

If a catholic priest advocates for women priests, I think that he is excommunicated. I think that any church would do such a thing to one of their priesthood holders who took stances against their doctrine.

Edited January 23, 2015 by why me

[readstoomuch]

If you or the Church believed that all PR is good PR, you wouldn't be so eager to get rid of him.

It just hit me rather strongly that we would`t be talking about him if he didn`t publicize the blow by blow of his doubt, stop going to church, come back to church, meetings with his SP, further meetings with his SP.  What do you do with a publiciy sponge?  They are going to be out there trying to be in the spotlight.  If you can`t get enough from saying bad things about the Church, then push it till you are excomunnicated and the publicize that.  Yes, I am adding to that by saying something on this board.  I am sure I am not saying any thing that someone else hash`t said.  

[Calm]

This may have happened. He was in discussion with brother holland.

I'd like mormonewb to tell us how he knows this didn't happen since he is so quick to condemn the Church for not approaching Dehlin for input on the faith crisis issue among members, etc. Surely no one so concerned with his brother's welfare would make such an accusation without knowledge as that would be false witness surely.

Edited January 23, 2015 by calmoriah