Excommunicatin'

[bluebell]

Do you really think he is trying to prevent his excommunication at this point? What he is doing (quite well) is demonstrating the backassward nature of our efforts to "silence" dissent.

Before last summer, how many faithful Mormons even knew about Mormon Stories? Do you think that number is more or less today? WAY more. Because the Church has provided Dehlin with NYT exposure. He couldn't have raised the money require to purchase an ad in the NYT in six years, yet how many times has he been featured there in the last six months?

Recently, I saw a promo for a talk show discussing the new reality show about gay Mormons married to women. Guess who was a featured panelist? He is quickly becoming the media's "go to person" for all things Mormon. Way to silence the opposition, Team Church!

So in an attempt to "discredit" him as a Mormon, the Church is making him the face of Mormonism to the outside world.

If he decides to write a book about the experience (and I can't imagine why he wouldn't), he won't be selling it out of the back of his car on the fireside circuit. It will receive widespread distribution and be accompanied by a media tour that could easily include stops at The Daily Show, Bill Maher's Real Time, etc. And guess what the topic of these conversations will be -- the truth of the Restoration, the fundamental goodness of the Mormon people, or the "backwardness" of the LDS Church?

And in one interview, the Church will have negated every "hip" point it gained over the last few years in its "I'm a Mormon" and "Meet the Mormons" campaign. And none of that would have been possible without the Church's help.

But, here's the best part -- if Dehlin goes this route -- he won't be the last. If he can provide a blueprint for profitable excommunication, our "courts of love" are going to have very full dockets.

And why am I the only one "prophetic"

enough to see this?

I think your biggest struggle with this issue is you believe the church should base its doctrines on how the secular world will view them.

"Doesn't the church know it won't be hip anymore if it keeps doing this..." seems to sum up your biggest gripe with it and if that's true then the reason your not getting a lot of agreement from others is that the church leadership and most members don't want the church to sacrifice its doctrine to be hip.

[Teancum]

Inactive members and those who are excommunicated and those who just leave the church can't seem to leave the church alone. I know a few members locally that left the church and then complain and complain about how damaging the church was and on and on and on. Usually, its one or two things that another church member said and they use that as an excuse to blame the entire church. Then, in the end, they end up being the only ones spreading ill will.

 

 

Most inactive members leave the church alone quite well.  But it is the church that won't leave them alone.....home teachers, send the missionaries, activation efforts, balanced effort and on and on and on....

[mormonnewb]

And Brother Newb you continue to exhibit your ignorance and misunderstanding of excommunication and as I know it has been explained to you I am left to surmise that it must be willful. I hope not but it appears that way.

I don't get it. How does my "ignorance" of the process impact JD's increased media presence?

[Teancum]

Did all the trolls make a New Year's resolution to spend more time here?

 

 

You should ask yourself this since most your posts are void of any real thought or reason.  Troll material all the way.... like the post above.

[Calm]

Recently, I saw a promo for a talk show discussing the new reality show about gay Mormons married to women. Guess who was a featured panelist? He is quickly becoming the media's "go to person" for all things Mormon. Way to silence the opposition, Team Church!

So in an attempt to "discredit" him as a Mormon, the Church is making him the face of Mormonism to the outside world.

I don't buy that the Church leadership is so clueless as to what was going to happen.  

 

Dehlin has been featured in news articles for years.  He is constantly appearing in Peggy Fletcher Stack's stories, which often get picked up by the main news agency.

 

See for example:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/31/us/31mormon.html

 

and

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/11/us/politics/11mormons.html?pagewanted=all

Edited January 23, 2015 by calmoriah

[The Nehor]

You should ask yourself this since most your posts are void of any real thought or reason.  Troll material all the way.... like the post above.

 

I disrespectfully disagree. I thought and reasoned out the best way to annoy you. It seems to have worked.

 

         I WINNED!!!!!         

[ERayR]

I don't get it. How does my "ignorance" of the process impact JD's increased media presence?

 

Contrary to what you believe media presence is irrelevant.

[mormonnewb]

I've heard this song and dance before. Everyone assumes that every exmormon is like Kenobi: "If you strike me down I will become more powerful then you can possibly imagine."

Almost inevitably there is a short bump in publicity after the fact and then they are forgotten.

I suppose I could be wrong. Are the so-called "September Six" still making big money in book deals and speaking tours? How about the Tanners? Does Kate Kelly still get the press she did as everything was happening?

Nope. Although excommunications are not done primarily for PR purposes they serve the function well. They are the equivalent of ripping off a band-aid quickly. A short spike of pain and then the wound is quickly forgotten.

You might be right, but I suspect that this might be different due to the Internet and Brother Dehlin's skills in this area. We're not dealing with college professors, whose credibility and reach is largely tied to institutional backing. Brother Dehlin didn't build his following with any institutional endorsement or sponsorship.

Nor is he like the Tanners, who operated with Xeroxes and mimeographs. And even more, the Tanners left voluntarily. People change religions all the time. But how many people are kicked out of a religion for apostasy? That is man bites dog news!

But hey, time will tell. Of course, had the Church either done nothing or even co-opted him ("Thank you, dear brother, for your input. We'd like to extend you a special calling -- Deacon of Disaffection"), it could have avoided the bad press altogether.

But, hey, why would Christ's true Church want to be perceived as wise and compassionate?

[ERayR]

Most inactive members leave the church alone quite well.  But it is the church that won't leave them alone.....home teachers, send the missionaries, activation efforts, balanced effort and on and on and on....

 

Most of those, that I know, who want to be left alone get themselves on a no contact list. 

[Kenngo1969]

Considering everything that is at stake in an excommunication, I think two weeks vs. eternity is a fair trade to make.

Excommunication needn't affect anyone's Eternity unless he lets it.

[The Nehor]

You might be right, but I suspect that this might be different due to the Internet and Brother Dehlin's skills in this area. We're not dealing with college professors, whose credibility and reach is largely tied to institutional backing. Brother Dehlin didn't build his following with any institutional endorsement or sponsorship.

Nor is he like the Tanners, who operated with Xeroxes and mimeographs. And even more, the Tanners left voluntarily. People change religions all the time. But how many people are kicked out of a religion for apostasy? That is man bites dog news!

But hey, time will tell. Of course, had the Church either done nothing or even co-opted him ("Thank you, dear brother, for your input. We'd like to extend you a special calling -- Deacon of Disaffection"), it could have avoided the bad press altogether.

But, hey, why would Christ's true Church want to be perceived as wise and compassionate?

 

So you suggest we give apostates special positions and this will somehow lessen their impact?

 

Yes, the secular world would probably applaud such a "wise and compassionate" move but they were never going to join the church anyways. It would confuse the members and those most likely to join the church most likely wouldn't because they would rightly think we were idiots.

 

I also think you vastly overestimate John Dehlin's influence. I give it three years at most before he is a forgotten nobody. If he keeps at it he will be thought of like the Tanners. If he gets a life he will be that one guy we talked about for a year or two. Kind of sad. At least Korihor, Sherem, and Nehor are memorialized.

[ERayR]

 And even more, the Tanners left voluntarily. People change religions all the time. But how many people are kicked out of a religion for apostasy? That is man bites dog news!

 

So has Dehlin.  His SP told him how he could stay and he has obviously chosen to leave.  Man bites dog?  I think not so much.  It is not even 15 minutes of fame, more like 5.  Dehlin is not so important as he has convinced himself that he is.  That is the trouble with fame, it doesn't last long.  Splash and then its back to page 40 or 50.

[Teancum]

Taking a statement at "face value" is too easily given as a rationalization for taking it out of context, which is inexcusable. Furthermore, having observed both cal and Smac online for years, I can say it would be out of character for either of them to do that.

 

 

Oh I see.

 

So I put my own justification on it to justify my views but Cal, Smac and maybe you don't.  Really?

 

Or rather because they and you confirm each others views you say this.

 

Or rather why not take Pres Uchdorf for face value rather than spin it as Smac and you are to justify your hard liner and narrow views?  

 

I can tell you. Because it shakes up your world view. 

[Teancum]

But President Uchtdorf's words do not mean what Teancum is trying to claim or imply that they mean.  Not on their face, and not in any other way.

 

He is engaging in a rather deliberately tendentious reading thereof in order to exploit them for a purpose for which they were never intended.

Regards,

Pahoran

 

 

Yes P.... because as I note to Mr Lloyd it would cause you to reevaluate your hardline views.

 

Confirmation bias is a wonderful thing.

But really you have no more inside knowledge of what Pres Uchdorf meant than I do.  Thus, my interpretation is as valid as yours.

 

Ain't it great?

[Garden Girl]

Most inactive members leave the church alone quite well.  But it is the church that won't leave them alone.....home teachers, send the missionaries, activation efforts, balanced effort and on and on and on....

 

Hello Teancum...

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you... I know I can't speak of widespread practice, but in my experience -- myself having been inactive for over 30 years -- all I ever had to do is designate myself as a "no contact."  All through those years the Church honored that status... it was me that sought out the Church when I finally acknowledged the tugging at me by the Spirit and the longing I had begun to feel for the Church when I'd watch Gen Conf or see the Choir, etc etc.  Finally, when my mom died and I saw the light go out of her eyes, that did whip me around and I ran back to the Church... That was 22 years ago...

Now in my Ward, we have No contact persons/families... then we have those who don't want a personal visit but would be fine with a card or Monthly message... so, my visiting teaching calling is to four sisters who want "card only"... so each month I choose a lovely card and send them a message based on the Ensign's VT message for the month.  About once or twice a year I call to be sure they still want the cards, and so far all do... There have been several times over the years when these sisters have reached out to me in times of need or trouble... for instance, one night about midnight my phone rang and it was a young "card only" sister in tears... her husband had been abusive and she needed help.  She had called her Utah parents and they had urged her to call her VT... so I got the call... we had a wonderful talk and I put her in touch with the bishop who in turn was in touch with her family and a couple days later she was on her way home to her parents.  I'll always remember how grateful she was to talk to me and how she felt safe to pour out her heart... after ascertaining she was safe for the night, we hung up until the next morning...

I honor the four sisters that I VT with cards and they feel confidence in me...

 

GG

[Teancum]

Most of those, that I know, who want to be left alone get themselves on a no contact list. 

 

 

Oh and that works fine until new leaders come along and start reviewing the ward list and sending people out again..... and again... and again....

[The Nehor]

Thus, my interpretation is as valid as yours.

 

 

.....Oh wait. You're serious?

 

           

[Avatar4321]

Do you really think he is trying to prevent his excommunication at this point? What he is doing (quite well) is demonstrating the backassward nature of our efforts to "silence" dissent.

Before last summer, how many faithful Mormons even knew about Mormon Stories? Do you think that number is more or less today? WAY more. Because the Church has provided Dehlin with NYT exposure. He couldn't have raised the money require to purchase an ad in the NYT in six years, yet how many times has he been featured there in the last six months?

Recently, I saw a promo for a talk show discussing the new reality show about gay Mormons married to women. Guess who was a featured panelist? He is quickly becoming the media's "go to person" for all things Mormon. Way to silence the opposition, Team Church!

So in an attempt to "discredit" him as a Mormon, the Church is making him the face of Mormonism to the outside world.

If he decides to write a book about the experience (and I can't imagine why he wouldn't), he won't be selling it out of the back of his car on the fireside circuit. It will receive widespread distribution and be accompanied by a media tour that could easily include stops at The Daily Show, Bill Maher's Real Time, etc. And guess what the topic of these conversations will be -- the truth of the Restoration, the fundamental goodness of the Mormon people, or the "backwardness" of the LDS Church?

And in one interview, the Church will have negated every "hip" point it gained over the last few years in its "I'm a Mormon" and "Meet the Mormons" campaign. And none of that would have been possible without the Church's help.

But, here's the best part -- if Dehlin goes this route -- he won't be the last. If he can provide a blueprint for profitable excommunication, our "courts of love" are going to have very full dockets.

And why am I the only one "prophetic"

enough to see this?

you're just reinforcing my point. We are being told that he wants to stay in the church so much. But he is not doing a thing to keep himself in the church he supposedly loves. Instead he is positioning himself to profit from his excommunication.

not everyone is willing to sell their soul for profit.

and if he does go around all the networks, good. You can't kick the church Anywhere but up. No pr is bad pr.

[Teancum]

 

.....Oh wait. You're serious?

 

           

 

 

Yes though I know it is difficult for you to comprehend...

[Avatar4321]

You might be right, but I suspect that this might be different due to the Internet and Brother Dehlin's skills in this area. We're not dealing with college professors, whose credibility and reach is largely tied to institutional backing. Brother Dehlin didn't build his following with any institutional endorsement or sponsorship.

Nor is he like the Tanners, who operated with Xeroxes and mimeographs. And even more, the Tanners left voluntarily. People change religions all the time. But how many people are kicked out of a religion for apostasy? That is man bites dog news!

But hey, time will tell. Of course, had the Church either done nothing or even co-opted him ("Thank you, dear brother, for your input. We'd like to extend you a special calling -- Deacon of Disaffection"), it could have avoided the bad press altogether.

But, hey, why would Christ's true Church want to be perceived as wise and compassionate?

what is wise about leaving a wolf with the flock?

[The Nehor]

Yes though I know it is difficult for you to comprehend...

 

It is indeed. Your warped and insane logic make following your reasoning a difficult task that takes one into a mind-bending abyss of unreality. This is always the case when dealing with someone foreign to rationality. Luckily I am already partially insane so I can watch your descent into madness without following.

[Teancum]

It is indeed. Your warped and insane logic make following your reasoning a difficult task that takes one into a mind-bending abyss of unreality. This is always the case when dealing with someone foreign to rationality. Luckily I am already partially insane so I can watch your descent into madness without following.

 

Well buddy everyone is a little bit nuts so there you have it.  

[Avatar4321]

Most inactive members leave the church alone quite well.  But it is the church that won't leave them alone.....home teachers, send the missionaries, activation efforts, balanced effort and on and on and on....

well we love them

[bluebell]

But, hey, why would Christ's true Church want to be perceived as wise and compassionate?

 

Giving someone who is pretty sure that Christ doesn't exist and openly teaches that, and who doesn't believe in the Atonement, a calling in Christ's church is not 'wise and compassionate'.  

 

Christ taught that a house divided against itself cannot stand.  How could Christ's true church have someone in a calling when they were actively teaching the doctrines of the devil (and denying the need for a Savior and that Jesus is the Christ is a doctrine of the devil, regardless of how nice someone is who espouses it) and not be divided against itself?

[Pahoran]

Do you really think he is trying to prevent his excommunication at this point?

Of course not. That would require him to value his Church membership.

Mister Dehlin's only real religion is -- and for years now, has been -- the cult of Mister Dehlin. He tried to stay a Church member in order to serve the needs of that religion, and now he's milking his excommunication in the service of that religion.

What he is doing (quite well) is demonstrating the backassward nature of our efforts to "silence" dissent.

But as you know, there is no expectation that Mister Dehlin's excommunication will "silence" him. He'll be every bit as free to proselyte for his real religion as he ever was.

Regards,

Pahoran