stemelbow Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Excommunicating seems like a done deal for one John Dehlin. Even the Times from New York City has a little summary of it: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/16/us/john-dehlin-mormon-critic-facing-excommunication.html?_r=0 I recall John himself declaring that he went to the Times along with Kate Kelly last year. So I guess he went back when he got his notice from his SP. Quoeth the trib:In the future, he said, he plans to "provide increased support to Mormons who are transitioning away from orthodoxy." Says Mr. Dehlin himself,The main items specifically mentioned to me by President Bryan King and Bishop Brian Hunt as contributing to my alleged apostasy include: •My 10-year effort with Mormon Stories podcast (http://mormonstories.org), wherein difficult historical and cultural issues are discussed in an interview format. •My public support of same-sex marriage. •My public support of the Ordain Women movement. •My publicly expressed doubts regarding key elements of orthodox LDS theology. •My publicly expressed criticism of the church’s approach to LGBT members, feminists, intellectuals, as well as its lack of transparency regarding finances. I better fix up bullet points two and five above myself, lest I suffer the same fate. Although I have no interest to get all public about my views-I guess I'd have to take "public" out of those bullet points for me to qualify. I'm hoping. 1
Popular Post bluebell Posted January 15, 2015 Popular Post Posted January 15, 2015 A friend of mine left the church recently and her hero is John Dehlin. She points every member she can to him and mormon stories because she believes the mormon church is a huge fraud that is hurting people. When a member is helping ex mormons feel good about leaving the church, and when ex mormons try to get people to talk to that member so they will also leave the church, that's probably a reasonable sign that the 'member' shouldn't be a member in good standing anymore. 24
why me Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 In all fairness, since kate was exed, john should have been exed along with her. It was unfair for her to be exed and not john. I think that when he left the church again, his so called protector (if he existed) in the GAs must have bailed on him. Too many flip flops. Greg's piece seems right on target. 3
ERayR Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Excommunicating seems like a done deal for one John Dehlin. Even the Times from New York City has a little summary of it: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/16/us/john-dehlin-mormon-critic-facing-excommunication.html?_r=0I recall John himself declaring that he went to the Times along with Kate Kelly last year. So I guess he went back when he got his notice from his SP.Quoeth the trib:Says Mr. Dehlin himself,I better fix up bullet points two and five above myself, lest I suffer the same fate. Although I have no interest to get all public about my views-I guess I'd have to take "public" out of those bullet points for me to qualify. I'm hoping. I think even being public about wouldn't make much difference unless you had an influential public forum.
Kenngo1969 Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 A friend of mine left the church recently and her hero is John Dehlin. She points every member she can to him and mormon stories because she believes the mormon church is a huge fraud that is hurting people. ... I seem to remember hearing that, in the now-distant past, Mr. Dehlin's stated goal was to help people who were struggling find room for belief. So much for that. (No emoticons were harmed in the writing of this post.)
ERayR Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 In all fairness, since kate was exed, john should have been exed along with her. It was unfair for her to be exed and not john. I think that when he left the church again, his so called protector (if he existed) in the GAs must have bailed on him. Too many flip flops. Greg's piece seems right on target. He had a much more patient Stake President and/or Bishop.
Sky Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) It was only a matter of time. John stepped way beyond the bounds of what the Church considers acceptable. And he will no longer be able to use his membership in the Church to influence other church members or mask his intentions in any way. Whatever good John has done, he has also "helped" many people lose their faith and step away. The Church is now putting its official stamp of (dis)approval on this. They won't tolerate it anymore. Edited January 15, 2015 by Sky 4
stemelbow Posted January 15, 2015 Author Posted January 15, 2015 A friend of mine left the church recently and her hero is John Dehlin. She points every member she can to him and mormon stories because she believes the mormon church is a huge fraud that is hurting people. When a member is helping ex mormons feel good about leaving the church, and when ex mormons try to get people to talk to that member so they will also leave the church, that's probably a reasonable sign that the 'member' shouldn't be a member in good standing anymore. So I was riding in the passenger seat the other day with my bishop (now I can't remember if I told this story here or not...oh well). He says to me, "we're trying to buy out a guy in our company. so work has been pretty busy lately". "too bad", says I. "must be tough". "well ya see, he's been a huge problem and no one likes him. He's a d-bag" Bishop says in confidence. "oh yeah, that sounds rough. so it is a hostile situation? I mean is this some takeover that'll hurt feelings?" "ah no...he's aware of it already and has agreed to all the terms. But we're worried he's going to back out, last second" blah blah blah, goes the talk. Then he divulged. "well he's done some pretty inappropriate things. He had some guys from the company over, all LDS and invited that Mormonstories guy as a surprise. He left the Church, you see. A few years ago he started getting all caught up in pornography, cheated on his wife and left her. That Mormonstories guy was there to drop some bombs on the company guys concerning their faith." "sounds incredibly inappropriate", I inserted. Anyway, I figure if my bishop's rendition of what happened in that inappropriate work event is at all accurate, this story hopefully aligns with and supports your contribution.
stemelbow Posted January 15, 2015 Author Posted January 15, 2015 I think even being public about wouldn't make much difference unless you had an influential public forum. I could gain one. i ain't half as skilled in the language and learning of the people as Dehlin, but I could get by. I have no interest whatsoever.
why me Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 He had a much more patient Stake President and/or Bishop.I think that he did have a friend at the top. After all, it seems one reason for the pressure to quash the piece was because he was returning to church. But when he left the church again after only a short time, I think all support for him disappeared. One can only take so much of a changing mind.
stemelbow Posted January 15, 2015 Author Posted January 15, 2015 In all fairness, since kate was exed, john should have been exed along with her. It was unfair for her to be exed and not john. I think that when he left the church again, his so called protector (if he existed) in the GAs must have bailed on him. Too many flip flops. Greg's piece seems right on target. Well it was supposed to be a local thing--you know decided by local leaders isolated from directive from the central Church. you make it sound like the two cases should have been considered together or something. I think the delay for John, as he's tried to clarify, is that he SP didn't know him and felt he better take some time to get to know him, or pretend to get to know him, as John seems to think. 1
Ahab Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 To coin a phrase from Jerry Seinfeld, that's a shame. 1
BCSpace Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Excommunicatin' As in a "Good 'ol Fashioned..."? 1
mormonnewb Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 It was only a matter of time. John stepped way beyond the bounds of what the Church considers acceptable. And he will no longer be able to use his membership in the Church to influence other church members or mask his intentions in any way. Whatever good John has done, he has also "helped" many people lose their faith and step away. The Church is now putting its official stamp of (dis)approval on this. They won't tolerate it anymore.This is the part that I will NEVER understand. The fact that he is being ex'd by the Church only bolsters his credibility in my eyes. And that would be the case no matter what church he had been ex'd from.For example, it never once occurred to me to discount Martin Luther's views because he was ex'd by the Catholic Church. It only adds to the narrative that the Catholic Church "was afraid of the truth."So I guess the Church may be successful in quarantining the Dehlin "infection" within Team Never Had a Doubt, but I suspect that his excommunication will have just the opposite effect with questioning Mormons (and the other 99.9% of the world's inhabitants). But hey, life is full of trade-offs, right? 4
stemelbow Posted January 15, 2015 Author Posted January 15, 2015 This is the part that I will NEVER understand. The fact that he is being ex'd by the Church only bolsters his credibility in my eyes. And that would be the case no matter what church he had been ex'd from. For example, it never once occurred to me to discount Martin Luther's views because he was ex'd by the Catholic Church. It only adds to the narrative that the Catholic Church "was afraid of the truth." So I guess the Church may be successful in quarantining the Dehlin "infection" within Team Never Had a Doubt, but I suspect that his excommunication will have just the opposite effect with questioning Mormons (and the other 99.9% of the world's inhabitants). But hey, life is full of trade-offs, right? Perhaps so. That's the risk from all of this. John's been great a creating a narrative. he often complains about the Church's narrative implying and suggesting it is wrong or deceptive. Anyway, everyone who now leaves and learns of or learns of Mormonstories before they leave, have the exactly same story to tell. I don't mean to be disrespectful on this. But it's cute anyway. If I've heard one, I've heard them all, and I've really tried to hear a bunch of them. it's just repeat after repeat now-a-days though. Comparing John's more weaselly seeming actions to Martin Luther's courageous move is a more than a bit overstated though. 2
Popular Post Mars Posted January 15, 2015 Popular Post Posted January 15, 2015 i really don't think the Church is 'afraid' of Dehlin or what his message is, mormonnewb... he seems to be telling people in a public forum with a widespread audience - largely of his own making - that he no longer believes the theology or truth claims of the Church, and in many respects, his message can be interpreted to mean 'and you shouldn't either.' that means it's time to go... but quaking in fear and we-gotta-silence-this-heretic-before-he-does-any-more-damage? c'mon... dehlin's been doing his thing for years, now. if the Church was about stamping out dissent they would have acted long ago, imo 8
ttribe Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 It seems some people (in this thread) are celebrating the possibility (probability?) of his excommunication. Something about the one and the ninety-and-nine comes to mind. 3
Mystery Meat Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 This is the part that I will NEVER understand. The fact that he is being ex'd by the Church only bolsters his credibility in my eyes. And that would be the case no matter what church he had been ex'd from.For example, it never once occurred to me to discount Martin Luther's views because he was ex'd by the Catholic Church. It only adds to the narrative that the Catholic Church "was afraid of the truth."So I guess the Church may be successful in quarantining the Dehlin "infection" within Team Never Had a Doubt, but I suspect that his excommunication will have just the opposite effect with questioning Mormons (and the other 99.9% of the world's inhabitants). But hey, life is full of trade-offs, right? You have a point newb. I don't disagree about the optics of this whole thing. The problem for Dehlin, however, is he wouldn't know truth if it hit him square in the face. 1
Mystery Meat Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Perhaps so. That's the risk from all of this. John's been great a creating a narrative. he often complains about the Church's narrative implying and suggesting it is wrong or deceptive. Anyway, everyone who now leaves and learns of or learns of Mormonstories before they leave, have the exactly same story to tell. I don't mean to be disrespectful on this. But it's cute anyway. If I've heard one, I've heard them all, and I've really tried to hear a bunch of them. it's just repeat after repeat now-a-days though.Comparing John's more weaselly seeming actions to Martin Luther's courageous move is a more than a bit overstated though. John's narrative of Church history is even more off then even the most naive members of the Church.
Popular Post Mars Posted January 15, 2015 Popular Post Posted January 15, 2015 It seems some people (in this thread) are celebrating the possibility (probability?) of his excommunication. Something about the one and the ninety-and-nine comes to mind. of course not, don't be silly some of us are of the opinion that he's been trying to maintain his standing in the Church as a means of obtaining trust from those members who identify as Mormon and may listen to him with a more bended ear than if he were to outright say "hey man i don't believe a word of what thomas s monson says, but here's my take: ..." his approach strikes me as subversive. but happy he appears to be gone? or at least celebratory of it? no way - it sucks all around. i just don't like what he's been doing for the last couple of years. 6
stemelbow Posted January 15, 2015 Author Posted January 15, 2015 i really don't think the Church is 'afraid' of Dehlin or what his message is, mormonnewb... he seems to be telling people in a public forum with a widespread audience - largely of his own making - that he no longer believes the theology or truth claims of the Church, and in many respects, his message can be interpreted to mean 'and you shouldn't either.' that means it's time to go... but quaking in fear and we-gotta-silence-this-heretic-before-he-does-any-more-damage? c'mon... dehlin's been doing his thing for years, now. if the Church was about stamping out dissent they would have acted long ago, imo I think one of the prevailing criticisms of Dehlin is he hasn't remained consistent over the years. i think many agree though, people are leaving over difficult historical and theological issues these days. 1
ERayR Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 It seems some people (in this thread) are celebrating the possibility (probability?) of his excommunication. Something about the one and the ninety-and-nine comes to mind. Dehlin, as the one, has been carried in from the storm on somebodies shoulders a number of times. He seems to deliberately wander off. 2
Mars Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 I think one of the prevailing criticisms of Dehlin is he hasn't remained consistent over the years.i think many agree though, people are leaving over difficult historical and theological issues these days. i get that people are leaving. and it bites. and yes, people are leaving these days and the catalyst for their exit is frequently historical or theological in nature.
stemelbow Posted January 15, 2015 Author Posted January 15, 2015 It seems some people (in this thread) are celebrating the possibility (probability?) of his excommunication. Something about the one and the ninety-and-nine comes to mind. I don't know who you mean, I don't see Dehlin posting here...just playing. I think most recognize there was some inevitability to it, just like Dehlin himself. 1
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