Excommunicatin'

[Avatar4321]

What is he planning to speak on?

[smac97]

What is he planning to speak on?

His pending disciplinary proceedings.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Damien the Leper]

At least when it comes to what are in the letters of saint paul. We also need to remember that we don't actually know just how these instructions were implements. To think that the local churches were run on a couple. You're assuming quite a bit without as source.f letter from paul would be a mistake. Each church was run by their local leaders who experienced the various problems that any church would experience. And we know that paul did attempt to keep the churches together from divisions from within. I believe that the letters of paul were meant as guidelines since they did lack specifics. And we know that paul wrote more letters than the ones that we have in the bible.

 

So what did the early churches do with wayward members? What policies were put in place in the local churches? I am sure that it comes pretty close to both disfellowshipment and excommunication, if not both.

Other than speculation, do you have a source to support this? The Pauline corpus does not. What other letters did Paul write? Are they authentic? Can you prove this?

[Calm]

Doesn't Paul himself refer to other letters he has sent that aren't in the NT collection?

[JAHS]

Just read the "About" page on Dehlin's website where he says the following:

 

"I believe in many of the central, non-distinctive moral teachings within Mormonism (e.g., love, kindness, charity, forgiveness, faith, hope), but either have serious doubts about, or no longer believe many of the fundamental LDS church truth claims (e.g., anthropomorphic God, “one true church with exclusive authority,” that the current LDS church prophet receives privileged communications from God, that The Book of Mormon and The Book of Abraham are translations, polygamy, racist teachings in the Book of Mormon, that ordinances are required for salvation, proxy work for the dead).

I do not believe that anyone has any idea what God and/or the afterlife are really like (if these things, indeed, exist at all)

I believe that many LDS church leaders have good intentions, but I am deeply troubled by their historical and current treatment of women, racial and sexual minorities, and scientists/intellectuals (see here for Example A).  I am also troubled by their historical and current approaches to faith/doubt, sexuality, the pursuit of vast commercial interests along with financial non-disclosure, the coercion/shaming of members through the withholding of temple and priesthood privileges, and the current culture of leader worship within the LDS church."  

 

And here's one of the main reason's he should be excommunicated when he publicly proclaims:

 

"I believe that the discouraging of criticism of LDS church leaders is possibly the single most pernicious and damaging aspect of LDS church culture"

 

He should have just resigned from the church a long time ago.

[Rob Osborn]

John Dehlin will be on TribTalk today at 12:15 Mountain Time: http://www.sltrib.com/home/2085731-155/trib-talk-john-dehlin-on-mormon

Thanks,

-Smac

Just tuned in for about 20 minutes or so and as I still believe- YES he needs to be excommunicated form the church. I ask- is there any aspect of Mormonism that he actually agrees with? I am having a hard time figuring out if he even believes any aspect whatsoever of our religion. He just hammers away and criticizes every teaching and belief of our church. He is worse than a Korihor, hes like the devil himself. Just another accuser of the brethren

[why me]

The process is now delayed for 2 weeks. I don't think that I can take it anymore. Enough is enough. We should get this over with as soon as possible without anymore delays. There needs to be a decision. If he is not excommunicated, he will have a free hand in whatever he wishes to do about mormonism.

 

If I am ever facing a court for excommunication, I just hope that I can get some media sympathy. But I have a feeling that none would be received and I would be exed. Not fair at all if this true.

[why me]

Doesn't Paul himself refer to other letters he has sent that aren't in the NT collection?

Yes, he does. To believe that paul only wrote the letters in the NT as a leader of the gentile church would also believe that the local churches would be more or less without a leader. He would need to have been more involved in the running of the church.

[stemelbow]

I really liked the things John said in the interview. I have no problem with it with the exception of what he sees as the core teachings of Mormonism (yoohoo, bonehead, those teachings are embraced by nearly everyone. To say those are the core teachings is to completely miss the boat)

[stemelbow]

The process is now delayed for 2 weeks. I don't think that I can take it anymore. Enough is enough. We should get this over with as soon as possible without anymore delays. There needs to be a decision. If he is not excommunicated, he will have a free hand in whatever he wishes to do about mormonism.

 

If I am ever facing a court for excommunication, I just hope that I can get some media sympathy. But I have a feeling that none would be received and I would be exed. Not fair at all if this true.

I don't see why it matters one wit that it's been delayed two weeks. He already do what he wants.

[why me]

I don't see why it matters one wit that it's been delayed two weeks. He already do what he wants.

Because it seems suspicious, especially if it is two weeks. Its time for the SP to make a decision sooner than later. Now there is two weeks more that John will grab the salt lake media attention.

 

So, john now compares the church to Mao or stalin. Wonderful, isn't it? He also attempts to defend himself too much with too much criticism about the lds church and its policy.

Edited January 22, 2015 by why me

[Calm]

I don't think that I can take it anymore.

 

 

Why take it so personally?  What of anything actually meaningful in your life is going to change if he gets disciplined today or next year or never?

Edited January 22, 2015 by calmoriah

[Pahoran]

What is he planning to speak on?

 

Himself, of course.  What else does he ever talk about?

Regards,

Pahoran

[cinepro]

Because it seems suspicious, especially if it is two weeks. Its time for the SP to make a decision sooner than later. Now there is two weeks more that John will grab the salt lake media attention.

 

So, john now compares the church to Mao or stalin. Wonderful, isn't it? He also attempts to defend himself too much with too much criticism about the lds church and its policy.

 

Considering everything that is at stake in an excommunication, I think two weeks vs. eternity is a fair trade to make.

[thesometimesaint]

Because it seems suspicious, especially if it is two weeks. Its time for the SP to make a decision sooner than later. Now there is two weeks more that John will grab the salt lake media attention.

 

So, john now compares the church to Mao or stalin. Wonderful, isn't it? He also attempts to defend himself too much with too much criticism about the lds church and its policy.

 

Digging his own grave deeper, is no skin off my nose.

[why me]

Why take it so personally?  What of anything actually meaningful in your life is going to change if he gets disciplined today or next year or never?

I think that it has more to do with perception. That the delay is due to pressure from the media. John did receive the email just 5 minutes before the interview. I think that the critics will now be making a lot of speculation about the delay. I do believe that kate's court was also delayed. It seems to fit a pattern with public lds people.

[why me]

Considering everything that is at stake in an excommunication, I think two weeks vs. eternity is a fair trade to make.

The SP gave family reasons for his delay. However, the interview that john gave was not good for him. Too much criticism of the leaders and the church and his comparison to the church to stalin did not help his cause. I think that they must excommunicate him now. If not, the church will need to cancel its excommunication policy on apotacy and any other grounds for excommunication. But especially for apostacy.

[Avatar4321]

Doesn't sound like he is making a strong case for himself

Edited January 22, 2015 by Avatar4321

[Sleeper Cell]

At least when it comes to what are in the letters of saint paul. We also need to remember that we don't actually know just how these instructions were implements. To think that the local churches were run on a couple of letter from paul would be a mistake. Each church was run by their local leaders who experienced the various problems that any church would experience. And we know that paul did attempt to keep the churches together from divisions from within. I believe that the letters of paul were meant as guidelines since they did lack specifics. And we know that paul wrote more letters than the ones that we have in the bible.

 

So what did the early churches do with wayward members? What policies were put in place in the local churches? I am sure that it comes pretty close to both disfellowshipment and excommunication, if not both.

Well, there is the disciplinary procedure described in the first part of Acts 5.  

[VideoGameJunkie]

If he's not excommunicated, then Kate Kelly would cry even more sexism on why she was ex'd, but not John.

[ERayR]

If he's not excommunicated, then Kate Kelly would cry even more sexism on why she was ex'd, but not John.

 

irrelevant.

[mormonnewb]

Doesn't sound like he is making a strong case for himself

Do you really think he is trying to prevent his excommunication at this point? What he is doing (quite well) is demonstrating the backassward nature of our efforts to "silence" dissent.

Before last summer, how many faithful Mormons even knew about Mormon Stories? Do you think that number is more or less today? WAY more. Because the Church has provided Dehlin with NYT exposure. He couldn't have raised the money require to purchase an ad in the NYT in six years, yet how many times has he been featured there in the last six months?

Recently, I saw a promo for a talk show discussing the new reality show about gay Mormons married to women. Guess who was a featured panelist? He is quickly becoming the media's "go to person" for all things Mormon. Way to silence the opposition, Team Church!

So in an attempt to "discredit" him as a Mormon, the Church is making him the face of Mormonism to the outside world.

If he decides to write a book about the experience (and I can't imagine why he wouldn't), he won't be selling it out of the back of his car on the fireside circuit. It will receive widespread distribution and be accompanied by a media tour that could easily include stops at The Daily Show, Bill Maher's Real Time, etc. And guess what the topic of these conversations will be -- the truth of the Restoration, the fundamental goodness of the Mormon people, or the "backwardness" of the LDS Church?

And in one interview, the Church will have negated every "hip" point it gained over the last few years in its "I'm a Mormon" and "Meet the Mormons" campaign. And none of that would have been possible without the Church's help.

But, here's the best part -- if Dehlin goes this route -- he won't be the last. If he can provide a blueprint for profitable excommunication, our "courts of love" are going to have very full dockets.

And why am I the only one "prophetic"

enough to see this?

[ERayR]

Do you really think he is trying to prevent his excommunication at this point? What he is doing (quite well) is demonstrating the backassward nature of our efforts to "silence" dissent.

Before last summer, how many faithful Mormons even knew about Mormon Stories? Do you think that number is more or less today? WAY more. Because the Church has provided Dehlin with NYT exposure. He couldn't have raised the money require to purchase an ad in the NYT in six years, yet how many times has he been featured there in the last six months?

Recently, I saw a promo for a talk show discussing the new reality show about gay Mormons married to women. Guess who was a featured panelist? He is quickly becoming the media's "go to person" for all things Mormon. Way to silence the opposition, Team Church!

So in an attempt to "discredit" him as a Mormon, the Church is making him the face of Mormonism to the outside world.

If he decides to write a book about the experience (and I can't imagine why he wouldn't), he won't be selling it out of the back of his car on the fireside circuit. It will receive widespread distribution and be accompanied by a media tour that could easily include stops at The Daily Show, Bill Maher's Real Time, etc. And guess what the topic of these conversations will be -- the truth of the Restoration, the fundamental goodness of the Mormon people, or the "backwardness" of the LDS Church?

And in one interview, the Church will have negated every "hip" point it gained over the last few years in its "I'm a Mormon" and "Meet the Mormons" campaign. And none of that would have been possible without the Church's help.

But, here's the best part -- if Dehlin goes this route -- he won't be the last. If he can provide a blueprint for profitable excommunication, our "courts of love" are going to have very full dockets.

And why am I the only one "prophetic"

enough to see this?

 

And Brother Newb you continue to exhibit your ignorance and misunderstanding of excommunication and as I know it has been explained to you I am left to surmise that it must be willful.   I hope not but it appears that way.

[pogi]

But, here's the best part -- if Dehlin goes this route -- he won't be the last. If he can provide a blueprint for profitable excommunication, our "courts of love" are going to have very full dockets.

And why am I the only one "prophetic"

enough to see this?

 

My prophetic vision says that Dehlin will continue on the same rout of talking about the "backwardness" of the church wether he is ex-commed or not.  The only difference is, instead of being "the face of Mormonism" in the media (undeserved), he will be the face of ex-Mormonism in the media (deserved).  Some may follow suit but will not get the same attention, but others will get the message to stop making a name for yourself by dissin' your brothas.  They will find more constructive and less damaging ways to express their uncertainty and inquiry. 

Edited January 23, 2015 by pogi

[The Nehor]

Do you really think he is trying to prevent his excommunication at this point? What he is doing (quite well) is demonstrating the backassward nature of our efforts to "silence" dissent.

Before last summer, how many faithful Mormons even knew about Mormon Stories? Do you think that number is more or less today? WAY more. Because the Church has provided Dehlin with NYT exposure. He couldn't have raised the money require to purchase an ad in the NYT in six years, yet how many times has he been featured there in the last six months?

Recently, I saw a promo for a talk show discussing the new reality show about gay Mormons married to women. Guess who was a featured panelist? He is quickly becoming the media's "go to person" for all things Mormon. Way to silence the opposition, Team Church!

So in an attempt to "discredit" him as a Mormon, the Church is making him the face of Mormonism to the outside world.

If he decides to write a book about the experience (and I can't imagine why he wouldn't), he won't be selling it out of the back of his car on the fireside circuit. It will receive widespread distribution and be accompanied by a media tour that could easily include stops at The Daily Show, Bill Maher's Real Time, etc. And guess what the topic of these conversations will be -- the truth of the Restoration, the fundamental goodness of the Mormon people, or the "backwardness" of the LDS Church?

And in one interview, the Church will have negated every "hip" point it gained over the last few years in its "I'm a Mormon" and "Meet the Mormons" campaign. And none of that would have been possible without the Church's help.

But, here's the best part -- if Dehlin goes this route -- he won't be the last. If he can provide a blueprint for profitable excommunication, our "courts of love" are going to have very full dockets.

And why am I the only one "prophetic"

enough to see this?

 

I've heard this song and dance before. Everyone assumes that every exmormon is like Kenobi: "If you strike me down I will become more powerful then you can possibly imagine."

 

Almost inevitably there is a short bump in publicity after the fact and then they are forgotten.

 

I suppose I could be wrong. Are the so-called "September Six" still making big money in book deals and speaking tours? How about the Tanners? Does Kate Kelly still get the press she did as everything was happening?

 

Nope. Although excommunications are not done primarily for PR purposes they serve the function well. They are the equivalent of ripping off a band-aid quickly. A short spike of pain and then the wound is quickly forgotten.