Public Embarrassment At Church

[ksfisher]

I think our gentle critics that thrill to attack the Church at every drop of every hat would simply think of you as a freeloader and an aberration.  True Mormons pay to go the the temple.  

 

Their perspective is tiresome, but they carry the burden of it and has nothing to do with those who actually attend the temple.  

 

Just another perspective on this, which I realize is on a tangent from the OP; but someone has to pay for the temple.  Building like those take a lot of money to run.  Maintenance, electricity, water, etc.  If someone is unwilling to contribute their share of those costs why should they be able to enjoy the benefits?

[MorningStar]

This statement is a pet peeve of mine.  We don't pay to get into the temple like you do a movie theater.  If a person doesn't pay their tithing and gets a temple recommend, then they're being set up to fail because they're about to make a covenant they can't keep.  Same for a person who isn't living the Law of Chastity, keeping the Word of Wisdom, etc.  Paying tithing is a commandment and there are pretty strong scriptural words about it - that a man is robbing God if they aren't tithed.  This isn't about the church wanting our money.  It's about giving 10% back to the Lord when He has given us everything we have.  In some cases, we have no income and 10% of zero is zero, yet we can still enter the temple worthily.  There is no "price tag".  There are covenants we make and we have to evaluate our ability to make and keep them.

[Guest]

so I have shared that I pay my tithing directly to church head quarters, and that the info does not show up on ward level records.

Here is the scenario, the ward clerk was handing out tithing records for the members to review before attending tithing settlement, when I asked do you have one for me? He said very loudly, and kind of smugly, no I don't have one for you, your records show zero for the year.

Others around us heard, and kind of gave a what is going on look.

I felt a bit upset by the experience, and want to talk with the bishop about it.

Yep...that is embarrassing for all. I know pay yearly, so it is always zero when I enter the room. I would not want that to be pubic for many reasons.

[The Nehor]

I have started paying my tithing at the beginning of the year before I earn anything. That way if I lose my job God owes me and needs to cover it and if God needs more money he just needs to get me a better job or a raise.

[JLHPROF]

I have started paying my tithing at the beginning of the year before I earn anything. That way if I lose my job God owes me and needs to cover it and if God needs more money he just needs to get me a better job or a raise.

 

You say this in jest (I assume) but I knew a man who's faith was so strong that not only did he pay tithing in advance when he knew he was going to need additional money, but he almost always received that blessing too.

If money was tight and he was going to need say, $5000, he would scrape together $500, pay it in, and on numerous occasions he would make a sale for the amount he needed.

 

Hasn't worked for me yet, but I have seen it work.

[The Nehor]

You say this in jest (I assume) but I knew a man who's faith was so strong that not only did he pay tithing in advance when he knew he was going to need additional money, but he almost always received that blessing too.

If money was tight and he was going to need say, $5000, he would scrape together $500, pay it in, and on numerous occasions he would make a sale for the amount he needed.

 

Hasn't worked for me yet, but I have seen it work.

Nope, no jest. Just started doing it this year. So far works well.

[cinepro]

This statement is a pet peeve of mine.  We don't pay to get into the temple like you do a movie theater.  If a person doesn't pay their tithing and gets a temple recommend, then they're being set up to fail because they're about to make a covenant they can't keep.  Same for a person who isn't living the Law of Chastity, keeping the Word of Wisdom, etc.  Paying tithing is a commandment and there are pretty strong scriptural words about it - that a man is robbing God if they aren't tithed.  This isn't about the church wanting our money.  It's about giving 10% back to the Lord when He has given us everything we have.  In some cases, we have no income and 10% of zero is zero, yet we can still enter the temple worthily.  There is no "price tag".  There are covenants we make and we have to evaluate our ability to make and keep them.

No one said we pay to get into the temple like you do a movie theater.

I think the problem is that we want the reality to be different, and we think if we just use the right words (or the re-define the wrong words) we can change that reality.

 

But when you limit access to a building, and a condition of gaining access to that building is paying 10% of your income, it is what it is. 

 

Your argument about the covenant might be a tad more convincing if people were just held back from receiving their endowment for lack of paying tithing, but were otherwise allowed to do baptisms and attend sealings, but that isn't the case.

[JLHPROF]

Nope, no jest. Just started doing it this year. So far works well.

 

I wish I had strong enough cash flow to do this.  It's kind of how the Church operates if my understanding is correct.  Every chapel/temple or whatever project they work on is already fully funded from previous income before the project is ever started.  That keeps the Church always 100% debt free.

 

Love to get to that point in my life.

[Storm Rider]

Just another perspective on this, which I realize is on a tangent from the OP; but someone has to pay for the temple.  Building like those take a lot of money to run.  Maintenance, electricity, water, etc.  If someone is unwilling to contribute their share of those costs why should they be able to enjoy the benefits?

 

Please KS, let us not use common sense when sensationalizing stupidity is so much better for the people....well those people with an axe to grind.  I am one of those old curmudgeons that has little, if any, patience for the incessant whine of the mindless critic.  

 

It is just too simple to understand; tithing has been asked of God's people from the beginning.  Sacrifice is one of the foundations of the gospel.  If you don't want to pay tithing then don't pay tithing.  Don't whine about the consequences of your choice.  If you want to smoke, by golly buy all the smokes you want and puff up a storm, but don't whine when you get cancer, which is the consequence of smoking.  

 

Sometimes trying to talk to people does little good.  We have grown soft when ignorance parades as an opinion and many critics have ignorance in spades; a swift kick in the behind is quicker and more loving in the long run. 

Edited November 4, 2014 by Storm Rider

[toon]

My dad pays his tithing in a lump sum every other year iirc...Mom told so I may be wrong. We have a number of options to pay these days, as people get used to that idea, hopefully at the very least the worst won't be assumed and eventually it will be kept between the individual and the bishop with the ward clerk doing his best to remember enough to get his calling done and forget all else.

 

I sometimes like it when someone overhears and misinterprets a conversation I'm in.

 

Lots of students who were just acquaintances thought I was a druggie in high school, probably because how I dressed, my hair, who I hung out with, and the bizarre comments I would make in class.  It was fun talking to them at a reunion.  When I mentioned my mission, they were surprised that I was LDS and even more so that I had always been a member.  "Wait, I thougt you were  . . "  "Nope."  Of course, my close friends knew I was a staight arrow.

 

My best friend and I used to enjoy hanging out at a restaurant and having an increasingly bizarre conversation, just to see the reaction of whoever was listening in.  I remember one time we got in a crowded elevator in the WIlkinson Center at BYU, and he turned to me and said, "you were so great last night."  I then put my arm on his shoulder.

 

Even now, at Church, I don't care too much what people think of me.  As someone else posted, "those that matter don't care, and those that don't care, matter."

 

I guess I'm kind of messed up in that way.

[toon]

I have started paying my tithing at the beginning of the year before I earn anything. That way if I lose my job God owes me and needs to cover it and if God needs more money he just needs to get me a better job or a raise.

 

The best thing about that is, before you earn anything, the amount you owe is zero.

[The Nehor]

I wish I had strong enough cash flow to do this.  It's kind of how the Church operates if my understanding is correct.  Every chapel/temple or whatever project they work on is already fully funded from previous income before the project is ever started.  That keeps the Church always 100% debt free.

 

Love to get to that point in my life.

The secret is to get a good salary and stay single. I am debt free. Downside: I do not qualify for exaltation.

[ksfisher]

I have started paying my tithing at the beginning of the year before I earn anything. That way if I lose my job God owes me and needs to cover it and if God needs more money he just needs to get me a better job or a raise.

 

Just hope that the government isn't reading this.  They may get the idea that we should pay taxes now on money we will earn in the future. 

[The Nehor]

Just hope that the government isn't reading this.  They may get the idea that we should pay taxes now on money we will earn in the future.

While complaining about taxes is a national institution we really should not complain too much. They are incredibly low compared to historical US tax rates. In fact they are ridiculously low for the highest income brackets. We were told that not taxing the rich would result in more jobs. We should be drowning in jobs.

The best thing about that is, before you earn anything, the amount you owe is zero.

I guesstimate any raises for the year in advance and assume no change anywhere else.

[why me]

I think you're right in speaking to the bishop.  All matters concerning donations are confidential and the clerk should not have made any sort of public comment.

 

On other hand, if you don't make any donations to your ward why would you ask?

A better question is: why ask the clerk in a public setting? Of course, if the clerk had no records of tithing payments he would say so in public because the question was asked in public.  Maybe he should have said it more quietly but I don't think that the clerk had any ill intent. What should he say to the bishop? Why not just talk to the clerk? I am sure that they know each other. 

[why me]

This makes me ill.   Any monetary price tag for a temple recommend is really sad.  To make others aware of it speaks volumes for this particular clerk and for the church in general as far as judgement.  Things said in a ward are not often forgotten.

I think that you are making much ado about nothing. People are not perfect and yes, clerks make mistakes as do other members. Why ask the question in a public setting? I think that you may be projecting too much into this case of your own baggage. Also, we also have only the OPs word that it happened the way it did. I  tend to doubt that many heads were turned over the comment. Also, the OP could have said publically  tto the clerk that he had paid the tithing in a certain way that may have not shown up in the clerk's records. No problem with the heads turning then.

Edited November 4, 2014 by why me

[Calm]

Also, I think by paying in a lump sum it can be like earning interest all year long. .

As far as I can see there is nothing wrong with that as long as it is taken into account for tithing.

My dad does it for the tax benefits, he'd rather give more money to the Church than the government.

[Calm]

"  I remember one time we got in a crowded elevator in the WIlkinson Center at BYU, and he turned to me and said, "you were so great last night."  I then put my arm on his shoulder"

That earned some snorts from me, but on iPad, smilies dont show up as options and don't remember the coding for them.

[rpn]

The clerk publicly divulge private information he was privy to as a part of his calling.    You should first talk with him about it, and ask him to admit he was wrong to the other members who overheard it, and that what he said should not be construed as your not being a full tithe payer.  Then you should talk with the bishop.   Then, if the clerk is not removed from being a clerk, you should make sure that the stake president knows it, and up to the Area Authority.    (I realize that it is not a member's responsibility to directly address it, and a bishop and stake president might have correctly ascertained that the problem was solved, sufficiently for them to not remove the person from his position or take any action that the member can see.    But the reason you MUST go as far as the area president is that the church needs to be protected from such wrongful disclosures - which in this case was defamatory as well as a violation of privacy- and that means everyone up the chain should DO something about them when they happen.   The Area Presidency will be in a position to assure this has been taken care of.)   Then I'd butt out.   

[The Nehor]

The clerk publicly divulge private information he was privy to as a part of his calling.    You should first talk with him about it, and ask him to admit he was wrong to the other members who overheard it, and that what he said should not be construed as your not being a full tithe payer.  Then you should talk with the bishop.   Then, if the clerk is not removed from being a clerk, you should make sure that the stake president knows it, and up to the Area Authority.    (I realize that it is not a member's responsibility to directly address it, and a bishop and stake president might have correctly ascertained that the problem was solved, sufficiently for them to not remove the person from his position or take any action that the member can see.    But the reason you MUST go as far as the area president is that the church needs to be protected from such wrongful disclosures - which in this case was defamatory as well as a violation of privacy- and that means everyone up the chain should DO something about them when they happen.   The Area Presidency will be in a position to assure this has been taken care of.)   Then I'd butt out.   

 

Or you could just forgive and forget. That sounds much easier to me.

[Pahoran]

Or you could just forgive and forget. That sounds much easier to me.

 

I agree.  I doubt that anyone went home and recorded in their journals, or on the family notice board, that "Brother 612 didn't pay any tithing this year."  Those who overheard it will forget about it soon enough.

 

Regards,

Pahoran

[mfbukowski]

Is anybody besides me impressed by the fact that the OP seems strangely like a setup happened?

Clearly a set up

[mfbukowski]

I agree.  I doubt that anyone went home and recorded in their journals, or on the family notice board, that "Brother 612 didn't pay any tithing this year."  Those who overheard it will forget about it soon enough.

 

Regards,

Pahoran

All he had to say was "Well your records are wrong- we will have to figure this out".

[ELF1024]

I guess you don't remember when you had to get up to the pulpit to admit your sins to the whole congregation so the ward could "help" you. My father had to do some at one point it time, it was more than just public embarrassment in my opinion.

Edited November 7, 2014 by ELF1024

[ERayR]

I agree.  I doubt that anyone went home and recorded in their journals, or on the family notice board, that "Brother 612 didn't pay any tithing this year."  Those who overheard it will forget about it soon enough.

 

Regards,

Pahoran

Most people really do not care what somebody else paid in tithing and offerings.

Edited November 7, 2014 by ERayR