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My Response To Jeremy Runnells Part 2 Plagiarism Accusations And Spiritual Experiences

MormonFreeThinker

By MormonFreeThinker
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MormonFreeThinker Mentor

MormonFreeThinker

Posted
Posted (edited)

Jeremy wrote, "There are more than a dozen Book of Mormon names that are thesame as or nearly the same as modern geographical locations."

 

Now Jeremy is ignoring the Book of Mormon witnesses, nobody saw a map or a book during the translation process. 

 

"Why are there so many names similar to Book of Mormon names in the region where Joseph Smith lived? This is all just a coincidence?" 

 

Jeremy is looking for patterns that do not exist. I created a similar list for the state of Texas

 

1) Mormon |  Morton, TX (1923)
 
2) Alma | Alma, TX (1840s)
 
3) Corianton | Corinth, TX (1847)
 
4) Seth | Seth Ward, TX (1920)
 
5) Benjamin | Benjamin, TX (1885)
 
6) Adam | Adamsville, TX (1856)
 
7) Joshua (Mormon 2:6) | Joshua, TX (1867)
 
8 Sariah | Sarita, TX (1904)
 
9)  Sherem | Sherman, TX (March 17, 1846)
 
10) Joseph | Josephine, TX (1888)
 
"There was a book published in 1825 Vermont entitled View of the Hebrews. View of theHebrews compared to the Book of Mormon:"
 
There was also a novel entitled Wreck of the Titan, it was published 14 years before the Titanic events. 
 
 
"Hill Cumorah and Moroni have absolutely nothing to do with Camora and Moroni from Captain Kidd stories? Stories that Joseph and his treasure hunting family and buddies werefamiliar with? The original 1830 Book of Mormon uniform “Camorah” spelling? This is all just a mere coincidence?"
 
There are thousands of stories and places, and there were thousands of events in Joseph Smith life. 
Jeremy is just shooting an arrow before drawing the target. 
 
Did you know that one of the very few ancient cities in Mesoamerica for which the pre-Columbian name is known is named "Lamanai"? It means "submerged crocodile." Lamanai dates to 500 BC. This is all just a mere coincidence?" What about Nahom and Bountiful? What about Mormon's codex book? See 
 
"The Late War Between the United States and Great Britain: This was an 1819 textbookwritten in King James Version style language for New York state school children, one of themvery likely being Joseph Smith. The first chapter alone is stunning as it reads incredibly likethe Book of Mormon" 
 
Why would Joseph Smith copy the language style of some paragraphs? The Book of Mormon witnesses said that Joseph Smith used no book during the translation process.
 
Duane and Chris Johnson conducted a computer study comparing The Book of Mormon to over 100,000 books from the pre-1830's era. Chris wrote, "Duane and I are conducting on over 100,000 pre-1830′s texts," 
 
Jeremy is clearly shooting the arrow before drawing the target. How many books does Jeremy think that Joseph Smith had? 
 
Plagiarism_book_collection.png
 
"Does this mean that Forrest Gump is real and the story happened in real life? Why did I feel the Spirit as I listened to the stories of apostates sharing how they discovered for themselves that Mormonism is not true? Why is this Spirit so unreliable and inconsistent? How can I trust such an inconsistent and contradictory Source for knowing that Mormonism is worth betting my life, time, money, heart, mind, and obedience to?"
 
Jeremy cannot prove that all spiritual experiences are false, and I cannot prove my spiritual experience to the world because it is personal.  Just because Catholics and Pentecostals say they had a revelation, that does nothing to disprove my spiritual experience. Jeremy may follow the Occam razor, he may think that the simplest explanation is to assume that all spiritual experiences are false, but I do not blame him, If I had not experienced my spiritual testimony, I would have not believe in any religion. 
 

"I don't blame any one for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I could not have believed it myself." - Joseph Smith 
 
 
 
I do not believe that the spirit really leaves the body, but I think that some Near Death Experiences are spiritual experiences and visions, See National Geographic documentary 
 
Edited by MormonFreeThinker
Mola Ram Suda Ram Grand Master

Mola Ram Suda Ram

Posted
Posted

Not the captain Kidd stuff. I don't know which is worse, that or the "Manuscript Found" theory.

cinepro Grand Master

cinepro

Posted
Posted (edited)

Jeremy wrote, "There are more than a dozen Book of Mormon names that are thesame as or nearly the same as modern geographical locations."

 

Now Jeremy is ignoring the Book of Mormon witnesses, nobody saw a map or a book during the translation process.

To be fair, no one saw the plates during the translation process either...

Edited by cinepro
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DaddyB Rookie

DaddyB

Posted
Posted

To be fair, no one saw the plates during the translation process either...

To be fair, the witnesses of the translation process saw that the plates were there. They didn't uncover and look at them, but they lifted and moved them. They could feel through the covering the plates and rings and could hear the rustling of the pages.

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Wiki Wonka Rising Star

Wiki Wonka

Posted
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Posted (edited)

"Hill Cumorah and Moroni have absolutely nothing to do with Camora and Moroni from Captain Kidd stories? Stories that Joseph and his treasure hunting family and buddies werefamiliar with? The original 1830 Book of Mormon uniform “Camorah” spelling? This is all just a mere coincidence?"

 

There is a missing link here between the names "Camora/Moroni" and "Captain Kidd stories". First, the historical facts: 

 

- The Comoro archipelago consists of the four islands of Grande Comore (Great Comoro), Anjouan (also known as Johanna), Mohilla (Mohely), and Mayotte (Mayotta).

- Captain William Kidd is known to have operated in the area of the Comoros.

 

So lets assume that Joseph never saw a map of the Comoros and simply acquired the names from "Captain Kidd stories". This is claimed by Ronald V. Huggins, who also asserts that Captain Kidd was "hanged for crimes allegedly committed in the vicinity of Moroni on Grand Comoro."  (Ronald V. Huggins, "From Captain Kidd's Treasure Ghost to Angel Moroni: Changing Dramatis Personae in Early Mormonism," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 36 no. 4 (2003)).

 

Huggins makes a connection between the names "Moroni/Grand Comoro" and the crimes that Captain Kidd was hanged for. Captain Kidd was hanged for a murder he committed in the vicinity of the Comoros Archipelago while he was at sea, but it didn't occur at "Moroni" or at "Grand Comoro". Those names were associated with the crime by Huggins.

 

How about those "Captain Kidd stories" that Pomeroy Tucker refers to? Here's what Tucker said:

 

"Joseph, moreover, as he grew in years, had learned to read comprehensively, in which qualification he was far in advance of his elder brother, and even of his father; and this talent was assiduously devoted, as he quitted or modified his idle habits, to the perusal of works of fiction and records of criminality, such for instance as would be classed with the "dime novels" of the present day. The stories of Stephen Burroughs and Captain Kidd, and the like, presented the highest charms for his expanding mental perceptions. As he further advanced in reading and knowledge, he assumed a spiritual or religious turn of mind, and frequently perused the Bible..."

 

Tucker was referring to Joseph's treasure digging, which was arguably performed in order to located some of Captain Kidd's legendary buried treasure. Tucker says nothing about the Comoros Archipelago. He never mentions the names "Moroni" or "Comoro" (or even "Camora"). So all that can be established is that Joseph knew about stories of Captain Kidd and buried treasure. It is likely that everyone who searched for treasure knew about Captain Kidd's rumored buried treasure, so this isn't hard to accept.

 

The problem occurs when everyone tries to connect the names "Moroni" and "Comoro" to these "Captain Kidd stories." The isn't any evidence that such stories contained those names. In fact, there is more evidence that they did not. I own a copy of Charles Johnson's 1724 book A General History of the Robberies and Murders of the Most Notorious Pirates. This is the book that originally inspired all of the stories about Captain Kidd and other famous pirates. There is indeed a chapter on Kidd in the book, but there is no mention in that chapter of the names "Moroni" or "Comoro" or "Camora". One of the islands in the Comoro Archipelago is mentioned by name in the Captain Kidd chapter. 

 

Johnson's book states: "It does not appear all this while that [Captain Kidd] had the least design of turning Pirate; for near Mahala and Joanna both he met with Indian ships richly laden, to which he did not offer the least violence." 

 

The island of Joanna is one of the Comoros islands, but that fact isn't even mentioned in Johnson's chapter on Kidd (I haven't yet searched the rest of the book yet to see if the Comoros are mentioned elsewhere). So, my point is this: How do these "dime store type" novels of Captain Kidd that Joseph was supposed to be reading contain the names "Moroni" and "Camora" if the book that inspired them didn't even mention them by name? The entire connection between these novels (none of which has ever been produced as evidence) and the names "Moroni" and "Comoro" (or "Camora") is pure speculation. Until someone produces an actual "Captain Kidd story" that contains the names "Moroni" and "Comoro" (or one of their many spelling variations), they have no cause to put forth such a claim.

 

I would also add that this isn't information that you would be able to locate using Google - you actually have to search through real books in order to get to the bottom of this, which is why I own a copy of Johnson's book.

Edited by Wiki Wonka
8
MormonFreeThinker Mentor

MormonFreeThinker

Posted
  • Author
Posted

There is a missing link here between the names "Camora/Moroni" and "Captain Kidd stories". First, the historical facts: 

 

- The Comoro archipelago consists of the four islands of Grande Comore (Great Comoro), Anjouan (also known as Johanna), Mohilla (Mohely), and Mayotte (Mayotta).

- Captain William Kidd is known to have operated in the area of the Comoros.

 

So lets assume that Joseph never saw a map of the Comoros and simply acquired the names from "Captain Kidd stories". This is claimed by Ronald V. Huggins, who also asserts that Captain Kidd was "hanged for crimes allegedly committed in the vicinity of Moroni on Grand Comoro."  (Ronald V. Huggins, "From Captain Kidd's Treasure Ghost to Angel Moroni: Changing Dramatis Personae in Early Mormonism," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 36 no. 4 (2003)).

 

Huggins makes a connection between the names "Moroni/Grand Comoro" and the crimes that Captain Kidd was hanged for. Captain Kidd was hanged for a murder he committed in the vicinity of the Comoros Archipelago while he was at sea, but it didn't occur at "Moroni" or at "Grand Comoro". Those names were associated with the crime by Huggins.

 

How about those "Captain Kidd stories" that Pomeroy Tucker refers to? Here's what Tucker said:

 

"Joseph, moreover, as he grew in years, had learned to read comprehensively, in which qualification he was far in advance of his elder brother, and even of his father; and this talent was assiduously devoted, as he quitted or modified his idle habits, to the perusal of works of fiction and records of criminality, such for instance as would be classed with the "dime novels" of the present day. The stories of Stephen Burroughs and Captain Kidd, and the like, presented the highest charms for his expanding mental perceptions. As he further advanced in reading and knowledge, he assumed a spiritual or religious turn of mind, and frequently perused the Bible..."

 

Tucker was referring to Joseph's treasure digging, which was arguably performed in order to located some of Captain Kidd's legendary buried treasure. Tucker says nothing about the Comoros Archipelago. He never mentions the names "Moroni" or "Comoro" (or even "Camora"). So all that can be established is that Joseph knew about stories of Captain Kidd and buried treasure. It is likely that everyone who searched for treasure knew about Captain Kidd's rumored buried treasure, so this isn't hard to accept.

 

The problem occurs when everyone tries to connect the names "Moroni" and "Comoro" to these "Captain Kidd stories." The isn't any evidence that such stories contained those names. In fact, there is more evidence that they did not. I own a copy of Charles Johnson's 1724 book A General History of the Robberies and Murders of the Most Notorious Pirates. This is the book that originally inspired all of the stories about Captain Kidd and other famous pirates. There is indeed a chapter on Kidd in the book, but there is no mention in that chapter of the names "Moroni" or "Comoro" or "Camora". One of the islands in the Comoro Archipelago is mentioned by name in the Captain Kidd chapter. 

 

Johnson's book states: "It does not appear all this while that [Captain Kidd] had the least design of turning Pirate; for near Mahala and Joanna both he met with Indian ships richly laden, to which he did not offer the least violence." 

 

The island of Joanna is one of the Comoros islands, but that fact isn't even mentioned in Johnson's chapter on Kidd (I haven't yet searched the rest of the book yet to see if the Comoros are mentioned elsewhere). So, my point is this: How do these "dime store type" novels of Captain Kidd that Joseph was supposed to be reading contain the names "Moroni" and "Camora" if the book that inspired them didn't even mention them by name? The entire connection between these novels (none of which has ever been produced as evidence) and the names "Moroni" and "Comoro" (or "Camora") is pure speculation. Until someone produces an actual "Captain Kidd story" that contains the names "Moroni" and "Comoro" (or one of their many spelling variations), they have no cause to put forth such a claim.

 

I would also add that this isn't information that you would be able to locate using Google - you actually have to search through real books in order to get to the bottom of this, which is why I own a copy of Johnson's book.

 

Thanks Wiki Wonka, Google does not replace libraries. 

cinepro Grand Master

cinepro

Posted
Posted (edited)

To be fair, the witnesses of the translation process saw that the plates were there. They didn't uncover and look at them, but they lifted and moved them. They could feel through the covering the plates and rings and could hear the rustling of the pages.

 

CFR that anyone who witnessed the translation* saw Joseph using the plates during the process.

 

 

 

 

*The translation of the existing Book of Mormon, after the loss of the 116 pages.

Edited by cinepro
Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted (edited)

I don't understand why Joseph wouldn't use the plates for translating and instead used the seerstone and hat for the entire BoM as we know it, only the 116 pages were translated using the plates. And especially after it took him a few years before being ok'd to receive them. Then the men before him compiling it and then Mormon walked carrying them to America after what 30 yrs? And if the urim & thummin was inside the container that held them, it must have meant he was to use them for it.

Edited by Tacenda
2
Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted

And how would you expect him to use the plates?

Well growing up, I believed and maybe was led to believe he went word/symbol by word and used the spectacles and urim and thummin to decipher each.  But now he doesn't use them at all and goes by inspiration or he reads them in a hat instead, why?  Now even the BoA is more from inspiration, where before it was an actual translation using material not thin air.  I wonder why the church doesn't just stick to what it had before and what they show in the pictures, still. 

cinepro Grand Master

cinepro

Posted
Posted (edited)

And how would you expect him to use the plates?

 

Maybe like this?

 

translating-plates-82841-gallery.jpg

 

Or this...?

 

trans3.jpg

Edited by cinepro
1
Mola Ram Suda Ram Grand Master

Mola Ram Suda Ram

Posted
Posted

Maybe like this?

 

translating-plates-82841-gallery.jpg

 

Or this...?

 

trans3.jpg

You are such a dork. Always trotting these out. It still is sorta funny though.

AndyDnom Collaborator

AndyDnom

Posted
Posted

you repeat that witnesses said no books were used during the translation. Why is this relevant? Smith could have copied materials from books consciously or subconsciously by memorizing them. he had a good memory. I'm not saying that's what he did, I just don't see how an absence of maps or books during the witnesses portion of a translation process during which the witnesses had a curtain between them really eliminates the possibility that view of the hebrews or great war was used in some way.

Wiki Wonka Rising Star

Wiki Wonka

Posted
Posted

Maybe like this?

 

translating-plates-82841-gallery.jpg

 

Or this...?

 

trans3.jpg

 

During my trips to Utah I've tried a number of times to locate the version of the Book of Mormon Reader that the image of the breastplate above is supposed to have come from. All I ever find are the later versions that don't show it at all (I believe they show the curtain instead).

Wiki Wonka Rising Star

Wiki Wonka

Posted
Posted

I may have it....

 

If you have it, could you either scan that page or take a photo of it for me, as well as the title and copyright page?

cinepro Grand Master

cinepro

Posted
Posted (edited)

During my trips to Utah I've tried a number of times to locate the version of the Book of Mormon Reader that the image of the breastplate above is supposed to have come from. All I ever find are the later versions that don't show it at all (I believe they show the curtain instead).

 

I used to have the old version (that's where I first saw the picture), but that was several moves ago so I'll see if it survived the different purges of old Church stuff.

 

This is the current version here:

 

https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/35666_eng.pdf?lang=eng

 

Page 4 shows the illustration for the translation (the new one, without the U&T).

 

Edit to add: this is what the cover for the old version looked like.  There must be tons still sitting in meetinghouse libraries all over the world.

 

3339637.jpg

 

More info.  The old version is copyright 1985 (according the ebay listing, but some are from the 70s).  The new version is 1997.  Not surprisingly, you can get the old version on Amazon and Ebay.

Edited by cinepro
Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted (edited)

If you have it, could you either scan that page or take a photo of it for me, as well as the title and copyright page?

For some reason, probably because it fell apart, the BoM reader is the only one I don't have.

 

I will try and remember to check out our ward library and see if it has the older one in it.  I am practically positive that it does unless the librarians that have been there the past year or so got really ambitious.

Edited by calmoriah
Wiki Wonka Rising Star

Wiki Wonka

Posted
Posted

I used to have the old version (that's where I first saw the picture), but that was several moves ago so I'll see if it survived the different purges of old Church stuff.

 

This is the current version here:

 

https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/35666_eng.pdf?lang=eng

 

Page 4 shows the illustration for the translation (the new one, without the U&T).

 

Edit to add: this is what the cover for the old version looked like.  There must be tons still sitting in meetinghouse libraries all over the world.

 

3339637.jpg

 

More info.  The old version is copyright 1985 (according the ebay listing, but some are from the 70s).  The new version is 1997.  Not surprisingly, you can get the old version on Amazon and Ebay.

 

There is actually more than one old version, and they all seem to have the same cover. I've seen two different translation pictures (neither of which was the one I was looking for). I've seen the ones from the 80s (I think I have one at home), and they don't have that image. I believe that what we are looking for is a copy from the early to mid-70s. This is the era during which we had large hardbound Books of Mormon with colorful images of ancient American artifacts in them (I own one of those). I think that if we can locate a Book of Mormon Reader from that era, that we will find the image with the breastplate.

Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted (edited)

Mine would have been from the 80s. I will be surprised if our ward library's is that old, even just sitting on the shelf the paper would have deteriorated more I think.

Edited by calmoriah
  • 1 month later...
canard78 Grand Master

canard78

Posted
Posted

You've got some impressive straw men in your list there.

The Titanic/Titan example and the Texas city example are great examples of coincidence. To then reference Mormon's Codex is a bit amusing.

Sorenson does what the critics do. He has scoured Central America looking for parallels which could also be nothing more than coincidences. I've read Mormon's Codex and haven't seen anything that I would consider actual evidence.

Runnells' problem is he created a laundry list of issues. Some of those issues are easy to dismiss and shouldn't have been used. All apologists, like you, seem to do now is simply pick the easy ones (like the map names and Moroni/Cumorah) and shoot them down in the hope that it will make people ignore the issues they don't have an answer for.

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