My Response To Jeremy Runnells Part 2 Plagiarism Accusations And Spiritual Experiences

[MormonFreeThinker]

The Titanic/Titan example and the Texas city example are great examples 

 

Thank you. 

 

Sorenson does what the critics do.

 

No, Sorenson did not try to prove the Book of Mormon. Book of Mormon evidence is not proof. 

Sorenson predicted an underwater city. 

 

Some of those issues are easy to dismiss and shouldn't have been used. 

 

I agree. 

 

 

 they don't have an answer for.

 

They don't have an answers yet. They didn't have the answer for many issues, but they now do. 

It is called progress. There is nothing wrong to not have an answer. 

[Calm]

All apologists, like you, seem to do now is simply pick the easy ones (like the map names and Moroni/Cumorah) and shoot them down in the hope that it will make people ignore the issues they don't have an answer for.

Hey!  When we don't have an answer for something over on FM that someone asks, we are perfectly willing to say we don't know plenty of times that I've seen.

 

If there are hard answers you think are important to deal with on the Runnell's letter that you think we are avoiding, please PM me and let me see if I can come up with something or find out at least the limits of our ability to deal with it.

[KevinG]

If you believe illustrations in children's books are an attempt at accurate portrayals then what does this say about Mormon Doctrines and history?

Edited October 22, 2014 by KevinG

[WysteriaBlue]

Just a very small aside, but since when do turning metal plates "rustle"....I would have expected a "thunk" or "clank" or "click" or whatever

 

"To be fair, the witnesses of the translation process saw that the plates were there. They didn't uncover and look at them, but they lifted and moved them. They could feel through the covering the plates and rings and could hear the rustling of the pages."

and

“Why would Joseph Smith copy the language style of some paragraphs? The Book of Mormon witnesses said that Joseph Smith used no book during the translation process.”  

(thus no other books to “rustle”)

 

Just wanted to point out a small discrepancy...as someone with hearing loss....sounds are important to me.

wb

[Hamilton Porter]

 

Jeremy wrote, "There are more than a dozen Book of Mormon names that are thesame as or nearly the same as modern geographical locations."

 

Now Jeremy is ignoring the Book of Mormon witnesses, nobody saw a map or a book during the translation process. 

 

"Why are there so many names similar to Book of Mormon names in the region where Joseph Smith lived? This is all just a coincidence?" 

 

Jeremy is looking for patterns that do not exist. I created a similar list for the state of Texas

 

1) Mormon |  Morton, TX (1923)

 

2) Alma | Alma, TX (1840s)

 

3) Corianton | Corinth, TX (1847)

 

4) Seth | Seth Ward, TX (1920)

 

5) Benjamin | Benjamin, TX (1885)

 

6) Adam | Adamsville, TX (1856)

 

7) Joshua (Mormon 2:6) | Joshua, TX (1867)

 

8 Sariah | Sarita, TX (1904)

 

9)  Sherem | Sherman, TX (March 17, 1846)

 

10) Joseph | Josephine, TX (1888)

 

"There was a book published in 1825 Vermont entitled View of the Hebrews. View of theHebrews compared to the Book of Mormon:"

 

There was also a novel entitled Wreck of the Titan, it was published 14 years before the Titanic events. 

 

 

"Hill Cumorah and Moroni have absolutely nothing to do with Camora and Moroni from Captain Kidd stories? Stories that Joseph and his treasure hunting family and buddies werefamiliar with? The original 1830 Book of Mormon uniform “Camorah” spelling? This is all just a mere coincidence?"

 

There are thousands of stories and places, and there were thousands of events in Joseph Smith life. 

Jeremy is just shooting an arrow before drawing the target. 

 

Did you know that one of the very few ancient cities in Mesoamerica for which the pre-Columbian name is known is named "Lamanai"? It means "submerged crocodile." Lamanai dates to 500 BC. This is all just a mere coincidence?" What about Nahom and Bountiful? What about Mormon's codex book? See 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765595129/Scholar-details-striking-parallels-between-Book-of-Mormon-and-ancient-civilization.html?pg=all

 

"The Late War Between the United States and Great Britain: This was an 1819 textbookwritten in King James Version style language for New York state school children, one of themvery likely being Joseph Smith. The first chapter alone is stunning as it reads incredibly likethe Book of Mormon" 

 

Why would Joseph Smith copy the language style of some paragraphs? The Book of Mormon witnesses said that Joseph Smith used no book during the translation process.

 

Duane and Chris Johnson conducted a computer study comparing The Book of Mormon to over 100,000 books from the pre-1830's era. Chris wrote, "Duane and I are conducting on over 100,000 pre-1830′s texts," 

 

Jeremy is clearly shooting the arrow before drawing the target. How many books does Jeremy think that Joseph Smith had? 

 

 

"Does this mean that Forrest Gump is real and the story happened in real life? Why did I feel the Spirit as I listened to the stories of apostates sharing how they discovered for themselves that Mormonism is not true? Why is this Spirit so unreliable and inconsistent? How can I trust such an inconsistent and contradictory Source for knowing that Mormonism is worth betting my life, time, money, heart, mind, and obedience to?"

 

Jeremy cannot prove that all spiritual experiences are false, and I cannot prove my spiritual experience to the world because it is personal.  Just because Catholics and Pentecostals say they had a revelation, that does nothing to disprove my spiritual experience. Jeremy may follow the Occam razor, he may think that the simplest explanation is to assume that all spiritual experiences are false, but I do not blame him, If I had not experienced my spiritual testimony, I would have not believe in any religion. 

 

"I don't blame any one for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I could not have believed it myself." - Joseph Smith 

 

 

 

I do not believe that the spirit really leaves the body, but I think that some Near Death Experiences are spiritual experiences and visions, See National Geographic documentary 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSfNSTB-Xd8

 

 

Nibley played the same game with Egyptian names.

[KevinG]

Just a very small aside, but since when do turning metal plates "rustle"....I would have expected a "thunk" or "clank" or "click" or whatever

 

"To be fair, the witnesses of the translation process saw that the plates were there. They didn't uncover and look at them, but they lifted and moved them. They could feel through the covering the plates and rings and could hear the rustling of the pages."

and

“Why would Joseph Smith copy the language style of some paragraphs? The Book of Mormon witnesses said that Joseph Smith used no book during the translation process.”  

(thus no other books to “rustle”)

 

Just wanted to point out a small discrepancy...as someone with hearing loss....sounds are important to me.

wb

Thin pounded metal plates can indeed "rustle".

[canard78]

Hey! When we don't have an answer for something over on FM that someone asks, we are perfectly willing to say we don't know plenty of times that I've seen.

If there are hard answers you think are important to deal with on the Runnell's letter that you think we are avoiding, please PM me and let me see if I can come up with something or find out at least the limits of our ability to deal with it.

Sorry, bad punctuation. I meant "...all apologists like you (MFT) seem to do is..." Or could have been phrased as "...you only seem to..."

I'm aware of the extra detail of the FAIR response. I'll let you know of any gaps I can think of.

[ttribe]

If you believe illustrations in children's books are an attempt at accurate portrayals then what does this say about Mormon Doctrines and history?

 

Well, uhhh, one is intended to illustrate an occurrence that happened anciently to an extinct society (and for which imagination is the only way to create such an illustration), and the other is meant to depict the modern translation of said ancient record for the purpose of instructing today's Church members on how the Prophet of this dispensation went about the critical, and foundational, task of bringing that book to the world.

 

I should think the difference quite obvious...and important.

Edited October 22, 2014 by ttribe

[KevinG]

Yes children's books illustrations by print artists are simply stinking with historical accuracy.

Edited October 23, 2014 by KevinG

[ttribe]

Yes children's books illustrations by print artists are simply stinking with historical accuracy.

 

 

Well, you made the comparison, I just pointed out its flaw.  That being said, not every illustration ever made by/for the Church was restricted to use only in "children's books" and nowhere has the Church ever portrayed the method which, according to the witnesses, was the dominate method employed by Joseph Smith; namely, utilizing the hat.

Edited October 23, 2014 by ttribe

[KevinG]

The illustrations Cinepro used were from children's books.

[KevinG]

Well, you made the comparison, I just pointed out its flaw. That being said, not every illustration ever made by/for the Church was restricted to use only in "children's books" and nowhere has the Church ever portrayed the method which, according to the witnesses, was the dominate method employed by Joseph Smith; namely, utilizing the hat.

I hate to be reciprocally pendantic but you may want to drop the words nowhere and dominant.

https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng

Edited October 23, 2014 by KevinG

[MormonFreeThinker]

Nowhere? Wow.

 

The Church doesn't have to teach us that, it is not a university history course, and it doesn't make any sense for the church to portray something that most people will not understand.

 

The church is religion that uses history to teach principles, not a museum trying to understand 19th century mentality.

Edited October 23, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[ttribe]

I hate to be reciprocally pendantic but you may want to drop the words nowhere and dominant.

https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng

 

Please re-read what I said.  I stated they'd never provided any other portrayal.  Clearly, I was talking about an illustration (I was writing in the context of what we'd already discussed).  I'm quite aware of the Church disclosing the hat method numerous times.  In fact, I've pointed members to Elder Nelson's article mentioning the fact more than once.

 

As to my use of the word "dominant," I'll let it remain subjective and make no attempt to change your opinion.  I've studied the specific issue enough over the years to be comfortable with my use of the word.

[KevinG]

The Church doesn't have to teach us that, it is not a university history course.

 

It is a religion that uses history to teach principles.

I agree, and yet we have still been meticulous about publishing every tidbit of history we could get our hands on. But the critics still whine and make mountains out of molehills, like the lack of illustrations with brother Joseph using a hat to block out extraneous light.

[KevinG]

Please re-read what I said.  I stated they'd never provided any other portrayal.  Clearly, I was talking about an illustration (I was writing in the context of what we'd already discussed).  I'm quite aware of the Church disclosing the hat method numerous times.  In fact, I've pointed members to Elder Nelson's article mentioning the fact more than once.

 

As to my use of the word "dominant," I'll let it remain subjective and make no attempt to change your opinion.  I've studied the specific issue enough over the years to be comfortable with my use of the word.

. Yet you missed the context of the comments between Cinepro and I where children's literature was the dominant example.

All I ask for is a bit of consistency in your use of outrage.

[MormonFreeThinker]

  Clearly, I was talking about an illustration

 

Who would understand that illustration? Not many. I see no point.

Yes, that church is going to illustrate that soon, so people like you can be happy.

Edited October 23, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[ttribe]

. Yet you missed the context of the comments between Cinepro and I where children's literature was the dominant example.

All I ask for is a bit of consistency in your use of outrage.

 

You misread me.  I didn't express any outrage at all.  I pointed out that the comparison you made was poor.  You are welcome to reject my criticism of your argument, or adjust it.  I've taken no position here as to the Church's moral obligation, or lack thereof, to address the extant criticisms on this issue.

[ttribe]

Who would understand that illustration? Not many. I see no point.

Yes, that church is going to illustrate that soon, so people like you can be happy.

 

People like me?  Who are people like me?  Perhaps you are assuming things unjustly about me.  You are welcome, of course, to peruse my posting history and make a determination as to what "team" I've played on over the years.  I get the impression that matters to you.

[MormonFreeThinker]

People like me?  Who are people like me?  Perhaps you are assuming things unjustly about me.  You are welcome, of course, to peruse my posting history and make a determination as to what "team" I've played on over the years.  I get the impression that matters to you.

 

Okay dude

[ttribe]

Okay dude

 

Not sure what you mean by that; just pointed out that your assumption(s) about me could be incorrect.

[KevinG]

You may want to alter your presentation if others are consistent in their perceptions of you. Perhaps a better illustration of what you mean would help?

[ttribe]

You may want to alter your presentation if others are consistent in their perceptions of you. Perhaps a better illustration of what you mean would help?

 

Clever word choice, but no.  I don't participate frequently enough on this board anymore to make it a priority.

[KevinG]

Clever word choice, but no.  I don't participate frequently enough on this board anymore to make it a priority.

good to know your corrections are only throw away thought. I will weight their importance appropriately in the future knowing that.

"A man cannot mean what he says unless he says what he means." Attributed Reginald Johnson, Tutor to the Last Emperor of China

[ttribe]

good to know your corrections are only throw away thought. I will weight their importance appropriately in the future knowing that.

"A man cannot mean what he says unless he says what he means." Attributed Reginald Johnson, Tutor to the Last Emperor of China

 

Um, okay.  No need to get nasty.