My Response To Jeremy Runnells Part 2 Plagiarism Accusations And Spiritual Experiences

[MormonFreeThinker]

There are many spiritual experiences that lead to contradictory conclusions. We all go through the same process.

 

How do you know? I am talking about my spiritual experiences, not the experiences of others. 

 

 

I've reached personal, prayer-led conclusions that are probably different to yours. What does that say about the process?

 

I don't know, I cannot confirm your personal experiences, that is the point. 

 

Again, I understand your points, but my spiritual experiences are good enough for me. 

[canard78]

How do you know? I am talking about my spiritual experiences, not the experiences of others.

I don't know, I cannot confirm your personal experiences, that is the point.

Again, I understand your points, but my spiritual experiences are good enough for me.

I done trying to make sense of anything you're saying here or trying to engage in actual intellectual discussion.

[MormonFreeThinker]

I done trying to make sense of anything you're saying here or trying to engage in actual intellectual discussion.

 

I have a theory about spiritual experiences that makes a lot of sense, I was about to share it, but you are no longer interested.

Let me remind you that not everything that doesn't make sense is false. 

In Cosmology, common sense is thrown out the window.

 

 

and just because hallucinations are real, it doesn't mean that all spiritual experiences are hallucinations. 

 

Edited November 2, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[Mystery Meat]

The past few pages of posts in this thread feel like a case of everybody loses. We are essentially debating who is right and who is wrong, and how do we know. Give carnard his point that he is making, and that is essentially we have to give others the same courtesy we want for ourselves.

 

You can't get around the first principal of the gospel: Faith. We live and die by it. At some point we all have to exercise it. I have faith that the ONLY way back to the presence of our father in heaven is faith in his son Jesus Christ, repentance of our sins, baptism by immersion by someone having his authority (which authority is ONLY found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints at the present time), reception of the Holy Spirit, and enduring to the end. Others have faith in different things. Some of our faith will ultimately prove vain. Some claim to know with absolute certainty that they know the Church is true, and good on them (ironically, some people who leave the Church, and rail on the dogma go the exact opposite way and claim with absolute certainty they know the church isn't true). As for me, I am living by faith. I have experiences fruits that those around me who aren't members (and some who are) haven't due to my faith. So my faith is strengthened. I am confident the Church is true. I have faith in Jesus Christ. I respect others opinions. I just think those who disagree are wrong.

[CurrentlyAlive]

I have a theory about spiritual experiences that makes a lot of sense, I was about to share it, but you are no longer interested.

 

I'm still interested!

[MormonFreeThinker]

I'm still interested!

 

We have to obey the eternal laws to become like God, laws that were not created. To become like God we have to "learn to recognize and follow courageously the Spirit’s guidance" 

 

"There are many voices which come into our lives seeking our attention. There is the voice of pleasure, the voice of fashion, and the voice of lust. There is also the voice of counsel and the voice of the Spirit. Learning to listen to the correct voice is truly a challenge of mortality"

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-instructors-guide-religion-324-325/the-spirit-of-revelation-lesson-5-sections-6-8-9?lang=eng

 

For the people that never learn to recognize the spirit, perhaps it is because they will not be happy living a God-like life. 

For example, in the mission field many missionaries are very happy to serve, but some are not happy and go home. 

 

"Through repentance and righteous living, you can prepare to be comfortable in God’s presence." 

https://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-study-guide-for-home-study-seminary-students/mormon/unit-29-day-2-mormon-9?lang=eng

 

So that is my theory, it makes sense. 

Edited November 3, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[CMZ]

The Church doesn't have to teach us that, it is not a university history course, and it doesn't make any sense for the church to portray something that most people will not understand.

 

The church is religion that uses history to teach principles, not a museum trying to understand 19th century mentality.

 

Exactly. People think the Church has some responsibility to load every member with every historical fact available, rather than realizing that the Church's responsibility is to teach the gospel and that further historical information is available if one wishes to read more.

[CMZ]

I agree that one person's spiritual experience cannot disprove another.  That said, how do you explain the contradicting spiritual experiences people of various faiths have?  What makes Mormon spiritual experiences superior to Baptist experiences, or Muslim experiences?  From what I can tell, people in both of those faiths have experiences very similar to ours, which they believe is solid proof that they are correct.

 

This is why it's a personal thing. If we are honest of heart then following the Spirit will eventually lead us to all truth. It's not that nobody else can ever have a spiritual experience.

[omni]

Exactly. People think the Church has some responsibility to load every member with every historical fact available, rather than realizing that the Church's responsibility is to teach the gospel and that further historical information is available if one wishes to read more.

Then why does the church spend so much time and resources teaching about it's history?

[CMZ]

What do you make of someone who converts AWAY from Mormonism to being a Baptist, due to spiritual experiences?  Might they not do the same thing?  They might say, I thought the spirit told me the BOM was literal truth, but it turns out there was just some truth in it, and the Spirit was responding to that.  Now I am REALLY saved, and I know because of my spiritual experiences.  How can we ever know who is right?

 

By personal revelation. Some will be following the true spirit until it leads them to the true and living church, even if they made numerous stops at organization that had some truth along the way, while others will be following a false spirit. We needn't be thrown off by the fact that both scenarios occur. When the Church says to seek personal revelation a lot of people interpret that as the Church saying to follow what somebody else says was revealed to them, when what they are really saying is, "Seek personal revelation."

[CMZ]

I think this is a pretty good response.  In my experience, I was always taught that other churches were in error and they'd all be better off as Mormons

 

This is a teaching that comes from cultural Mormons. It doesn't stem from the earliest teaching of the Restoration that other churches have some truth to them.

[CMZ]

Then why does the church spend so much time and resources teaching about it's history?

 

Because it IS important. It's just that it doesn't exceed in priority the teaching of the saving principles of the gospel, and no matter how much they teach the history they would never be able to cover every single point of it, especially since that history is still being compiled and since some historical facts may never be recovered again before the Millennium. I don't think there's a single person alive who is aware of every historical point there is to possibly know.

[CMZ]

I always encourage people to follow their inspirations.  How can we be true to Christ if we are untrue to ourselves?

 

It is not up to me to judge someone else's revelation or try to disprove it.  It is up to us to teach and share what we know, and for the Holy Spirit to convert.  There are a thousand reasons why mortals can receive differing revelations.  Step by step progression towards the truth, from different starting points.  Innocent mistakes or misinterpretations.  Different missions and callings in mortality.  

 

No one has a corner on the truth.  Even we know our knowledge of the Gospel is incomplete.  We claim to have the fullness as so far revealed.  

 

As well as a fulness of knowledge of what ordinances we should be going through while in this life.

[CMZ]

Because it IS important. It's just that it doesn't exceed in priority the teaching of the saving principles of the gospel, and no matter how much they teach the history they would never be able to cover every single point of it, especially since that history is still being compiled and since some historical facts may never be recovered again before the Millennium. I don't think there's a single person alive who is aware of every historical point there is to possibly know.

 

There is also a remaining point that members are expected to engage in their own personal study, and this can include study of historical matters. It was never an expectation that members are to sit like chicks in a nest and aim their head up into the air and open their mouths and await to be fed whatever the mother bird deigns to drop in. Yet people just about lose their spleen when the Church doesn't shovel a motherlode of historical factoids down their throats.

 

(funny the things that get edited out here)

Edited December 27, 2014 by CMZ

[CMZ]

In fact, Elder Christofferson counsels us to not study Church history too little (http://www2.byui.edu/Presentations/Transcripts/Devotionals/2013_9_24_Christofferson.htm).

Edited December 28, 2014 by CMZ