My Response To Jeremy Runnells Part 2 Plagiarism Accusations And Spiritual Experiences

[canard78]

I always encourage people to follow their inspirations. How can we be true to Christ if we are untrue to ourselves?

It is not up to me to judge someone else's revelation or try to disprove it. It is up to us to teach and share what we know, and for the Holy Spirit to convert. There are a thousand reasons why mortals can receive differing revelations. Step by step progression towards the truth, from different starting points. Innocent mistakes or misinterpretations. Different missions and callings in mortality.

No one has a corner on the truth. Even we know our knowledge of the Gospel is incomplete. We claim to have the fullness as so far revealed.

So do you think the Holy Ghost can confirm both of the following:

X is true (to person A)

X is not true (to person B)

Or the above two confirmations both to person A at different stages of his spiritual journey?

If that's the case, how can you know that your current convictions, even if in your view confirmed by the spirit, are not simply a stepping stone.

Could the spirit teach you: "the Book of Mormon is true" even if it is fact not true?

Does that mean that the spirit teaches people what they, personally, need to believe at the time and not what is true?

I'm not trying to catch you out. I consider it possible that this is exactly what God/the spirit might do... That is, to teach things that are useful, regardless of whether they are true or not.

But if that's the case then it's not a method for establishing "truth" and only a method for identifying what is useful.

If mfbukowski comes along he'll probably say that's the only thing that matters. He might share his Rorty video. If he does, it's well worth 45 minutes of your time. It's a game-changer.

[canard78]

You cannot verify his experience, you can only verify yours, but again, it is not about absolute knowledge.

We do not know if he was hallucinating, or if he is simply lying.

Or could he be having a genuine divine experience?

Can the spirit teach him that infant baptism is essential and also teach you that it is not?

If yes, then he can be telling the truth. If not, then one of you is lying/hallucinating. If one of you is only experiencing it in your head then how can you be certain it's not you?

[MormonFreeThinker]

Or could he be having a genuine divine experience?

 

I cannot confirm that, it is his experience, not mine. 

 

 

Can the spirit teach him that infant baptism is essential and also teach you that it is not?

 

I do not have absolute knowledge, I follow what I receive.

 

 

If yes, then he can be telling the truth. If not, then one of you is lying/hallucinating. If one of you is only experiencing it in your head then how can you be certain it's not you?

 

Not me, I once hallucinated a ghost, I knew it was a hallucination, I am smart.  

 

I follow the peace and love that God gives me, not emotions that my brain creates. 

Edited October 28, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[canard78]

I cannot confirm that, it is his experience, not mine.

I do not have absolute knowledge, I follow what I receive.

Not me, I once hallucinated a ghost, I knew it was a hallucination, I am smart.

I follow the peace and love that God gives me, not emotions that my brain creates.

Congratulation on being so smart. Did you consider asking to shake its hand?

You've opened a thread to discuss Runnells' issues with spiritual experiences but you're not engaging with the topic.

Do you believe the spirit can tell one person "X is true" and another "X is not true."

Here's someone who read something and then got a spiritual witness of truth:

I had the feeling of waking up, as if all my previous life I had been asleep. The printed words on the page of the book seemed like the surface of a vast and fathomless ocean of truth and wisdom. Whatever it was, I knew that it was completely true and infallible. Therefore the author must also be true and infallible. The small red book, which I still have, was The Hidden Words.

http://bahaihistoryuk.wordpress.com/2012/10/05/nigel-moody/

If you prayed about The Hidden Words do you think the spirit would tell you it is true and infallible or that it is not?

You don't have to comment on individual examples if you don't feel comfortable doing so, but you can, at least, discuss the broader principle.

Edited October 28, 2014 by canard78

[MormonFreeThinker]

You've opened a thread to discuss Runnells' issues with spiritual experiences but you're not engaging with the topic.

 

I did answer your question, I can only tell you about my experiences, not about the experiences of others, I cannot verify them.

 

 

Do you believe the spirit can tell one person "X is true" and another "X is not true."

 

No because I cannot verity the experiences of others. How can I believe something that I cannot verify? Again, I do not have absolute knowledge.

How can I verify that the spirit told someone else that "X" is not true? Just because an experience sounds the same, it doesn't mean it is the same. 

 

 

A psychiatrist can give you a medicine that will make you hallucinate a tiger, but it doesn't mean tigers do not exist.  

 

 

If you prayed about The Hidden Words do you think the spirit would tell you it is true and infallible or that it is not?

 

I don't have any good reason to believe in "The Hidden Words" and the spirit did not tell me that.  

Edited October 28, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[cdowis]

Or could he be having a genuine divine experience?

 

My experience was different, and we both will answer to our Creator on the choices we have made.  I feel comfortable with my experience and testimony, and we will both be held accountable.

Can the spirit teach him that infant baptism is essential and also teach you that it is not?

 

I find that an absurd notion  One or both of us have been deceived. 

If yes, then he can be telling the truth. If not, then one of you is lying/hallucinating. If one of you is only experiencing it in your head then how can you be certain it's not you?

 

 I have used the Alma 32 test on my testimony for the past 50 years and it has stood the test of time.

[CurrentlyAlive]

 

Can the spirit teach him that infant baptism is essential and also teach you that it is not?

 

I find that an absurd notion  One or both of us have been deceived.

 

 

So, how should the guy in True Jesus Church determine if he has been deceived?

[canard78]

I find that an absurd notion One or both of us have been deceived.

Indeed. I appreciate your willingness to acknowledge either implication. The reality of this as a possibility seems to undermine it as a valid method for discerning truth. If it's personally useful then I can see the benefit of the process, even if it seems entirely unreliable.

[cdowis]

So, how should the guy in True Jesus Church determine if he has been deceived?

 

Alma 32.

[CurrentlyAlive]

Alma 32.

 

So, are you suggesting that we simply look at the fruits of the revelation?  Like, does it make me a better person, do I feel like God is working in my life, etc.?  I'm not sure how that could differentiate between faiths, either.  Besides, would that require that the TJC member live most of a lifetime in obedience to the TJC in order to examine the fruits?

 

On a related note, here's a comment from a believer in the Urantia Book:

 

"You will find, Brother, that every reading of the whole will further expand the parts within, endlessly it seems. The more you experience the truths within, the more of them there seem to be. The evidence of truthfulness lies within the experience of truth in our life...  The highest happiness is indissolubly linked with spiritual progress. Spiritual growth yields lasting joy, peace which passes all understanding."

 

This quote and lots of other Urantia Book testimonials come from here:

http://testimoniesofotherfaiths.blogspot.com/search/label/Urantian

 

It seems to me that this guy is experiencing positive fruits.  So do many others who give their testimonials.  What should we be looking for?

[canard78]

Alma 32.

Alma's method only proves that the principle is useful to the individual. It does not teach that it is true.

Can it, for example, establish whether you or the infant baptism proponent is in error. If both infant and 8yo baptism is applied (as per Alma) what if both result in good fruit? Does that make them both true?

[cdowis]

So, are you suggesting that we simply look at the fruits of the revelation? 

 

It is not my suggestion at all.  Christ "suggested" it in the Bible.  Why not take it up with Him.

 

Like, does it make me a better person, do I feel like God is working in my life, etc.?  I'm not sure how that could differentiate between faiths, either.  Besides, would that require that the TJC member live most of a lifetime in obedience to the TJC in order to examine the fruits?

 

On a related note, here's a comment from a believer in the Urantia Book:

 

snip

 

It seems to me that this guy is experiencing positive fruits.  So do many others who give their testimonials.  What should we be looking for?

 

Truth is not exclusive to the LDS church.  But I thought that you knew that.  If you follow the principles of a happy marriage, you will experience its fruits, even if you are an atheist.

 

But, for example, if someone told me they found happiness in their belief in infant baptism -- that all infants that died unbaptized would go to hell -- I would really question that.

Edited October 29, 2014 by cdowis

[CurrentlyAlive]

 

So, are you suggesting that we simply look at the fruits of the revelation? 

 

It is not my suggestion at all.  Christ "suggested" it in the Bible.  Why not take it up with Him.

 

Like, does it make me a better person, do I feel like God is working in my life, etc.?  I'm not sure how that could differentiate between faiths, either.  Besides, would that require that the TJC member live most of a lifetime in obedience to the TJC in order to examine the fruits?

 

On a related note, here's a comment from a believer in the Urantia Book:

 

snip

 

It seems to me that this guy is experiencing positive fruits.  So do many others who give their testimonials.  What should we be looking for?

 

Truth is not exclusive to the LDS church.  But I thought that you knew that.  If you follow the principles of a happy marriage, you will experience its fruits, even if you are an atheist.

 

But, for example, if someone told me they found happiness in their belief in infant baptism -- that all infants that died unbaptized would go to hell -- I would really question that.

 

 

I do not find whether or not something makes me happy to be a very good indicator of objective truth.  Also, I'd say it is highly unlikely that the Book of Mormon AND the Urantia Book are true.  Now, nothing I've said could DISPROVE the BOM (or the Urantia Book either), but I still don't see any sure way of discerning truth through a subjective experience.  Too many people have conflicting experiences.  Heck, even I've had conflicting experiences.

[ksfisher]

Alma's method only proves that the principle is useful to the individual. It does not teach that it is true.

Can it, for example, establish whether you or the infant baptism proponent is in error. If both infant and 8yo baptism is applied (as per Alma) what if both result in good fruit? Does that make them both true?

The fruit of baptism by proper priesthood authority is salvation, conditioned on repentance. You would need to wait for that particular fruit to ripen all the way before you can make a proper judgement as to whether the fruit was good or not.

[canard78]

The fruit of baptism by proper priesthood authority is salvation, conditioned on repentance. You would need to wait for that particular fruit to ripen all the way before you can make a proper judgement as to whether the fruit was good or not.

In other words, we'll know when we're dead.

But you're misrepresenting Alma's advice.

34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?

36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.

37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.

Given the person says:

"I asked the Lord Jesus Christ for a sign to show that the True Jesus Church has the whole truth...

One day, I was sitting under a tree, thinking deeply. I was trying to recall some Bible verses on baptism and praying about a doubt that I had. Suddenly, a miracle happened to me. It was like a light that I could not exactly figure out. It shone on me and took away the doubt in my mind. It seemed that the darkness in my mind was lifted. The doctrine on infant baptism, which I could not at first accept, suddenly became very clear me. I could then accept it with my mind and heart. Since that incident, each time I read the Bible, that former opinion to oppose and the refusal to believe and accept were gone. Today I believe that infants must be baptized in order to be saved.

...Now I know and am confident that this is the end of my search for the whole truth. I thank the Lord Jesus Christ for answering my prayer and giving me a sign. I have found the whole truth of my salvation. Glory be given to the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Hallelujah!!"

-from "How I was Converted to the True Jesus Church", by Ernesto Torres

http://testimoniesofotherfaiths.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/testimonies-from-true-jesus-church.html?m=1

Sourced from:

http://members.tjc.org/sites/en/my/cr/pj/USGA%20Newsletter/Testimonies/Testimonies.pdf

This belief has brought him joy. "Hallelujah" he says. The belief was planted and his "understanding doth begin to be enlightened."

If we apply your model (which isn't Alma's) then every principle of the gospel will only be proven when we're dead.

Alma teaches (as did Pres Uchtdorf in the latest conference) that if living a principle brings you joy and enlightenment then you can have faith that if is good. You don't know that the principle is true, you just know that it is true that the principle brings you joy and therefore it's a principle worth having continued faith in and worth living.

I completely agree with this principle. In short: "if doing something brings you joy, keep doing if."

It's a great principle... but it still doesn't establish whether infant baptism is against or in-line with God's will. There is know way of knowing that for certain.

[ksfisher]

In other words, we'll know when we're dead.

But you're misrepresenting Alma's advice.

Given the person says:

-from "How I was Converted to the True Jesus Church", by Ernesto Torres

http://testimoniesofotherfaiths.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/testimonies-from-true-jesus-church.html?m=1

Sourced from:

http://members.tjc.org/sites/en/my/cr/pj/USGA%20Newsletter/Testimonies/Testimonies.pdf

This belief has brought him joy. "Hallelujah" he says. The belief was planted and his "understanding doth begin to be enlightened."

If we apply your model (which isn't Alma's) then every principle of the gospel will only be proven when we're dead.

Alma teaches (as did Pres Uchtdorf in the latest conference) that if living a principle brings you joy and enlightenment then you can have faith that if is good. You don't know that the principle is true, you just know that it is true that the principle brings you joy and therefore it's a principle worth having continued faith in and worth living.

I completely agree with this principle. In short: "if doing something brings you joy, keep doing if."

It's a great principle... but it still doesn't establish whether infant baptism is against or in-line with God's will. There is know way of knowing that for certain.

 

Baptism is a gospel ordinance, not a gospel principle.  It is a principle of the gospel that we believe that all who are of age should be baptized, there is a distinction.

 

By living gospel principles we can see light and truth come into our lives.  Repentance is a principle that bring joy to those who live it.  Sincere prayer brings light into our lives.  The work done by mothers and fathers in their homes in raising their children in the gospel brings happiness.  Tithing teaches us eternal truthes.  All these things bring us joy here and now as well as in the worlds to come.  Living the principles taught by Alma (the elder) concerning baptism does the same.

 

However, I would argue, the veracity of the ordinances of the gospel will only be known at the judgement.  Until that time we have faith and have hope that these things will lead to eternal life for us and for the people we love.  

[canard78]

Baptism is a gospel ordinance, not a gospel principle. It is a principle of the gospel that we believe that all who are of age should be baptized, there is a distinction.

By living gospel principles we can see light and truth come into our lives. Repentance is a principle that bring joy to those who live it. Sincere prayer brings light into our lives. The work done by mothers and fathers in their homes in raising their children in the gospel brings happiness. Tithing teaches us eternal truthes. All these things bring us joy here and now as well as in the worlds to come. Living the principles taught by Alma (the elder) concerning baptism does the same.

However, I would argue, the veracity of the ordinances of the gospel will only be known at the judgement. Until that time we have faith and have hope that these things will lead to eternal life for us and for the people we love.

I used the "principle" but Alma's invite has a broader application.

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

While you're right that you'll find out for certain about who got the infant baptism question once you're dead, you can also apply the Alma 32 advice to the belief in either infant or 8yo baptism.

I agree that we'll only really know the truth of any religious teaching after we die. That's sort of my point. The method provided on earth (pray about it and/or apply it) seems to produce such conflicting results as to be useless for establishing truth.

The Mormon who says "I know the church is true" or "I know..." to any other principle or ordinance of the gospel has applied the same process as the people of other faiths who reach a contradictory conclusion. So how can you consider it an effective methodology.

[MormonFreeThinker]

I know some LDS  that experienced something similar to what Elder Gerald N Lund experienced.  

 

[canard78]

I know some LDS that experienced something similar to what Elder Gerald N Lund experienced.

Elder Lund's experience may or may not be a coincidence. Even if it really was a spiritual experience it in no way proves anything other than that one self-contained event. It doesn't prove the church true. Other people of different faiths have had similar experiences. What does it prove.

The concluding advice in the video is D&C 42:61

61 If thou shalt ask, thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge, that thou mayest know the mysteries and peaceable things—that which bringeth joy, that which bringeth life eternal.

It's a nice idea. Given it produces such different and sometimes contradictory results it seems to be relatively weak way of discerning what is really true.

[MormonFreeThinker]

Elder Lund's experience may or may not be a coincidence. Even if it really was a spiritual experience it in no way proves anything other than that one self-contained event. It doesn't prove the church true. Other people of different faiths have had similar experiences. What does it prove.

 

I am not talking about proof, see post #80. 

 

The peace and love that comes from God is a stronger spiritual experience. 

[canard78]

I am not talking about proof, see post #80.

The peace and love that comes from God is a stronger spiritual experience.

Sorry, I can't see the post numbers on a phone. You'll need to be more specific.

A stronger spiritual experience than what? Stronger than proof? Stronger than other faiths? Please clarify.

Mormonism doesn't have any exclusivity on experiences attributed to God's peace and love and their descriptions closely resemble the descriptions in your video.

[Tacenda]

Sorry, I can't see the post numbers on a phone. You'll need to be more specific.

A stronger spiritual experience than what? Stronger than proof? Stronger than other faiths? Please clarify.

Mormonism doesn't have any exclusivity on experiences attributed to God's peace and love and their descriptions closely resemble the descriptions in your video.

On my phone, if I scroll clear to the bottom it says "full version", then opens it up to how you would see the board on a laptop, etc. I just never use it. Hope that helps.

[canard78]

On my phone, if I scroll clear to the bottom it says "full version", then opens it up to how you would see the board on a laptop, etc. I just never use it. Hope that helps.

Thanks. Got it.

I've found your post #80 MFT. I still don't see your point. You quote Runnells critique of spiritual experiences and all you can reply is "it's personal." Is that it? Are you not going to engage with the logical inconsistency of the same process generating contradictory conclusions?

[MormonFreeThinker]

I've found your post #80 MFT. I still don't see your point. You quote Runnells critique of spiritual experiences and all you can reply is "it's personal." Is that it? Are you not going to engage with the logical inconsistency of the same process generating contradictory conclusions?

 

Generating contradictory conclusions? How? If I can confirm the personal experience of others, it will no longer be personal, it is that simple. 

 

A psychiatrist can give you a drug that will make you hallucinate a tiger. How can you know the difference between a real tiger and a tiger that you are hallucinating? 

 

I know the difference between my spiritual experiences and a hallucination. I have felt the spirit when I was not expecting to feel it, something that I cannot prove to you because it is personal. 

 

I understand your points, if I didn't have my spiritual experiences, I would be making the same arguments that you are making. 

[canard78]

Generating contradictory conclusions? How? If I can confirm the personal experience of others, it will no longer be personal, it is that simple.

A psychiatrist can give you a drug that will make you hallucinate a tiger. How can you know the difference between a real tiger and a tiger that you are hallucinating?

I know the difference between my spiritual experiences and a hallucination. I have felt the spirit when I was not expecting to feel it, something that I cannot prove to you because it is personal.

I understand your points, if I didn't have my spiritual experiences, I would be making the same arguments that you are making.

I still don't see the argument you're even trying to make.

There are many spiritual experiences that lead to contradictory conclusions. We all go through the same process.

I've reached personal, prayer-led conclusions that are probably different to yours. What does that say about the process?