Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Tacenda]

He didn't say how old he was when he left....or how active though that doesn't necessarily relate. I have a sibling who I know attended just as much as I did and yet her understanding of the scriptures was practically nil in college, didn't know the story of David and Goliath even....how does one even go through the extended American culture without picking that up. My sibling wasn't stupid, I have no clue how it happened.

Um...I can relate, glad your sister's not stupid!

[Jim Stiles]

Would it really matter if I was not chosen for salvation? Would there be anything I could do to affect my salvation? or was I created for the express purpose to be damned? for all eternity for nothing I have done...simply for the pleasure of God? Is this your belief?

People who are not chosen for salvation cannot and will not do anything to affect their salvation.

[ERayR]

People who are not chosen for salvation cannot and will not do anything to affect their salvation.

 

How does one know if you are chosen?  If you are chosen can you do anything that will cause you to be rejected?

[Jim Stiles]

I would like to know the eternal state of the person who thought he was saved and did what he thought the Spirit was telling him to do to draw closer to God, abided by the precepts of the Bible as best he could while accepting that he would never be perfect and that any good he did was a result of God acting through him, not his own abilities.

 

If this person has not committed any horrendous sins or taken malicious delight in harming another and has been a truly kind and loving thought obviously not sinless person even if not saved by God, does he end up suffering, burning eternally on the same level as an unsaved murderer who delighted in torturing his victims?  Is there somewhere a part of hell where people may not be happy, but they are comfortable, sorrowing but not in significant pain?

 

Or is hell a one size fits all place in Jim's version of Calvinist belief?

No one is sent to hell innocent. See Gen 3:16-24, Rom 5:12, Rom 3:23.

Obviously, the more sin a non-elect person does, the worse hell will be. But the best place in hell is terrible compared to the worse place in heaven.

[ERayR]

.

Obviously, the more sin a non-elect person does, the worse hell will be. But the best place in hell is terrible compared to the worse place in heaven.

 

Now you are talking degrees of glory.

[bluebell]

I've always wondered *why* God only wants to save some (according to Calvin) and is fine damning most.

I also wonder why Christ said that people would find Him if they sought Him, when the truth is that people have no ability to seek after Him at all. It all who He wants to find.

Edited December 28, 2014 by bluebell

[Jim Stiles]

How does one know if you are chosen?  If you are chosen can you do anything that will cause you to be rejected?

Good question. I do not think anyone has absolute infallible knowledge of their status. I differ from the WCF on this point. However, as long as I believe in the gospel, then I believe that Jesus died for me. If one is chosen for salvation and stops believing, then one will return to the faith before one dies.

[ERayR]

I've always wondered *why* God only wants to save some (according to Calvin) and is fine damning others.

 

I am just trying to find out if I am one of the chosen.  If I am then I might change my habits a bit and go .

[Jim Stiles]

Now you are talking degrees of glory.

The Bible does say that there are different levels of reward in heaven (Rev 4). What exactly those levels are is not mentioned. Probably beyond our comprehension.

[Jim Stiles]

I am just trying to find out if I am one of the chosen.  If I am then I might change my habits a bit and go .

Even if you don't change your habits and go , then even the very best thing you (or me or anyone) can do (give a vital organ to a stranger, feed the homeless on a day other than Christmas or Thanksgiving) will be tainted by sin. This is our position.

[ERayR]

The Bible does say that there are different levels of reward in heaven (Rev 4). What exactly those levels are is not mentioned. Probably beyond our comprehension.

 

As Tonto would say to the Lone Ranger Speak for yourself kemo sabe.  If you will listen I could explain it to you.

[Jim Stiles]

Good question. I do not think anyone has absolute infallible knowledge of their status. I differ from the WCF on this point. However, as long as I believe in the gospel, then I believe that Jesus died for me. If one is chosen for salvation and stops believing, then one will return to the faith before one dies.

The Westminster Confession of Faith talks about infallible knowledge of one's election, but I hesitate to use the word infallible.

Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation

1. Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favor of God, and estate of salvation (which hope of theirs shall perish): yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavoring to walk in all good conscience before him, may, in this life, be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.

2. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God, which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.

3. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto. And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance; so far is it from inclining men to looseness.

4. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light: yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived; and by the which, in the meantime, they are supported from utter despair.

-- Westminster Confession of Faith 18

Scripture proofs:

a. Mic. 3:11. The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach

for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD,

and say, Is not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us. Deut. 29:19. …

and it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in

his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to

add drunkenness to thirst. John 8:41. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they

to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

b. Amos 9:10. All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say,

The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us. Matt. 7:22–23. Many will say to me in

that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast

out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto

them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

c. 1 John 5:13. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of

the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on

the name of the Son of God. 1 John 2:3. And hereby we do know that we know him,

if we keep his commandments. 1 John 3:14, 18–19, 21, 24. We know that we have

passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his

brother abideth in death.… My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue;

but in deed and in truth.… And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall

assure our hearts before him.… Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we

confidence toward God.… And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him,

and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath

given us.

d. Rom. 5:2, 5. … by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein

we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.… And hope maketh not ashamed;

because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given

unto us.

e. Heb. 6:11, 19. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence

to the full assurance of hope unto the end.… which hope we have as an anchor

of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil.

f. Heb. 6:17–18. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs

of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: that by two immutable

things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong

consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us.

g. 2 Pet. 1:4–11. … whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious

promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the

corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to

your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance

patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and

to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you

that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten

that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to

make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: for so

an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of

our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 1 John 2:3. And hereby we do know that we

know him, if we keep his commandments. 1 John 3:14. We know that we have

passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his

brother abideth in death. 2 Cor. 1:12. For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our

conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the

grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to

you-ward.

h. Rom. 8:15–16. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear;

but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit

itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.

i. Eph. 1:13–14. … in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of

truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed

with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the

redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Eph. 4:30.

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

2 Cor. 1:21–22. Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath

anointed us, is God; who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our

hearts.

k. 1 John 5:13. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of

the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on

the name of the Son of God.

l. 1 Cor. 2:12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit

which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1 John 4:13. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath

given us of his Spirit. Heb. 6:11–12. And we desire that every one of you do shew

the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: that ye be not slothful,

but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Eph.

3:17–18. … that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and

grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and

length, and depth, and height.

m. 2 Pet. 1:10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your

calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.

n. Rom. 5:1–2, 5. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God

through our Lord Jesus Christ: by whom also we have access by faith into this grace

wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.… And hope maketh not

ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost

which is given unto us. Rom. 14:17. For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink;

but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. Rom. 15:13. Now the God

of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope,

through the power of the Holy Ghost. Eph. 1:3–4. Blessed be the God and Father

of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly

places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the

world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. Ps. 4:6–7.

There be many that say, Who will shew us any good? LORD, lift thou up the light of thy

countenance upon us.… Thou hast put gladness in my heart, more than in the time

that their corn and their wine increased. Ps. 119:32. I will run the way of thy commandments,

when thou shalt enlarge my heart.

o. 1 John 2:1–2. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the

whole world. Rom. 6:1–2. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that

grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer

therein? Titus 2:11–12, 14. For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared

to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should

live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.… who gave himself for us,

that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people,

zealous of good works. 2 Cor. 7:1. Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved,

let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in

the fear of God. Rom. 8:1, 12. There is therefore now no condemnation to them

which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.… Therefore,

brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 1 John 3:2–3.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but

we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Ps. 130:4. But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared. 1 John

1:6–7. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and

do not the truth: but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one

with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

p. Ps. 51:8, 12, 14. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which

thou hast broken may rejoice.… Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold

me with thy free spirit.… Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my

salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness. Eph. 4:30–31. And

grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away

from you, with all malice. Ps. 77:1–10. I cried unto God with my voice, even unto

God with my voice; and he gave ear unto me.… Will the Lord cast off for ever? and

will he be favourable no more? Is his mercy clean gone for ever? doth his promise fail

for evermore? Hath God forgotten to be gracious? hath he in anger shut up his tender

mercies? Selah. And I said, This is my infirmity: but I will remember the years of the

right hand of the most High. Ps. 31:22. For I said in my haste, I am cut off from

before thine eyes: nevertheless thou heardest the voice of my supplications when I

cried unto thee. Cf. Matt. 26:69–72 and Luke 22:31–34.

q. 1 John 3:9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed

remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Luke 22:32. But I

have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen

thy brethren. Ps. 51:8, 12. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which

thou hast broken may rejoice.… Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold

me with thy free spirit. See Ps. 73:15.

r. Mic. 7:7–9. Therefore I will look unto the LORD; I will wait for the God of my

salvation: my God will hear me. Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when I fall, I

shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the LORD shall be a light unto me. I will bear the

indignation of the LORD, because I have sinned against him, until he plead my cause,

and execute judgment for me: he will bring me forth to the light, and I shall behold his

righteousness. Jer. 32:40. And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I

will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts,

that they shall not depart from me. Isa. 54:7–14. For a small moment have I forsaken

thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. In a little wrath I hid my face

from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith

the LORD thy Redeemer.… For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed;

but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be

removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.… In righteousness shalt thou be

established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror;

for it shall not come near thee. 2 Cor. 4:8–10. We are troubled on every side, yet not

distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; cast

down, but not destroyed; always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord

Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

[Calm]

Um...I can relate, glad your sister's not stupid!

She is absolutely not, she has higher degrees and it is quite possible that she has a very in-depth knowledge at this point because she has been studying stuff over the years (the topic has not come up in conversation, we don't get together very much over the last few decades due to family circumstances, I know her bookshelf was full of a variety of books on religious including iirc some Nibley but I know from personal experience that just because a book is on the shelf doesn't mean it has been studied all that deeply  or even read, …except every book of fiction I have, of course )

[Jim Stiles]

I've always wondered *why* God only wants to save some (according to Calvin) and is fine damning most.

I also wonder why Christ said that people would find Him if they sought Him, when the truth is that people have no ability to seek after Him at all. It all who He wants to find.

The best explanation I have heard is: The question is not why he does not save all, but why does he save any?

Edited December 28, 2014 by Jim Stiles

[Calm]

People who are not chosen for salvation cannot and will not do anything to affect their salvation.

I know that many Calvinists find this belief in God's sovereignty (I believe that is the correct term) comforting.  When I hear it I just want to cry though (this is not hyperbole, I am tearing up right now).  I can't imagine how horrible it must be to have a hunger to seek God and not being able to do so because one was not of the chosen and yet one was aware enough to want to be….and knowing this state goes on forever.  It is not something I can accept as loving no matter how I try because I know my friends who believe this are very loving and they understand it as a perfect and infinite form of love as well as justice and mercy.

 

If the belief is that anyone who looks like they are trying to seek out God, the divine in their life however they understand, is someone God is drawing to him and that only those who look like they are truly making an effort to reject God even after seeing evidence that he exists, etc….well, that would make more sense, but I haven't seen a Calvinist who says that this is the way it happens.

 

By any chance, what do you think?  How do you tell yourself or do you think you can tell at all?  

[Calm]

The best explanation I have heard is: The question is not why he does not save all, but why does he save any?

And this is why so many are deeply disturbed by Calvinist thought.  Why create something only for eternal suffering?  The way it is often presented it comes across as God is torturing his creatures to show how powerful he is.  I don't like to use the word "torture" connected with God because I see him as a loving and merciful Father nor do I like to criticize others' beliefs (if it helps them become better people, I see it as quite possible that this is how God has chosent to work with them so I am not going to say their beliefs are wrong for them) but that is truly what it comes across as to me.

 

That creation for damnation seems like a very twisted, very human form of megalomania.  If this is the actual truth of God's nature, there must be some information he has withheld so far that puts a whole new light on it (maybe the eternal suffering is really enjoyed by those going through it, it makes them happy so to speak…but the scriptures certainly don't describe the state that way).

 

PS:  your "explanation" explains nothing, btw, it just changes it into another question.

Edited December 28, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Even if you don't change your habits and go , then even the very best thing you (or me or anyone) can do (give a vital organ to a stranger, feed the homeless on a day other than Christmas or Thanksgiving) will be tainted by sin. This is our position.

No one is arguing we are perfect, so I am not sure of your point here.

[ERayR]

The best explanation I have heard is: The question is not why he does not save all, but why does he save any?

 

That is only begging the question.  If you can't answer just say so.

[Jim Stiles]

I know that many Calvinists find this belief in God's sovereignty (I believe that is the correct term) comforting.  When I hear it I just want to cry though (this is not hyperbole, I am tearing up right now).  I can't imagine how horrible it must be to have a hunger to seek God and not being able to do so because one was not of the chosen and yet one was aware enough to want to be….and knowing this state goes on forever.  It is not something I can accept as loving no matter how I try because I know my friends who believe this are very loving and they understand it as a perfect and infinite form of love as well as justice and mercy.

 

If the belief is that anyone who looks like they are trying to seek out God, the divine in their life however they understand, is someone God is drawing to him and that only those who look like they are truly making an effort to reject God even after seeing evidence that he exists, etc….well, that would make more sense, but I haven't seen a Calvinist who says that this is the way it happens.

 

By any chance, what do you think?  How do you tell yourself or do you think you can tell at all?

“What else does this craving, and this helplessness, proclaim but that there was once in man a true happiness, of which all that now remains is the empty print and trace? This he tries in vain to fill with everything around him, seeking in things that are not there the help he cannot find in those that are, though none can help, since this infinite abyss can be filled only with an infinite and immutable object; in other words by God himself.”

- Blaise Pascal, Pensées VII(425)

[Calm]

No one is sent to hell innocent. See Gen 3:16-24, Rom 5:12, Rom 3:23.

Obviously, the more sin a non-elect person does, the worse hell will be. But the best place in hell is terrible compared to the worse place in heaven.

But is it suffering for sure?  Say a nonelect person has been kind and loving and while not full of sin, still he has harmed no one that he didnot try to help once realizing it and who even though not good because he has not been called by God, is still not a bad person.

 

Someone who has all their life sacrificed their own needs to help others out of love and kindness and not out of getting rewards in heaven.  When you say "terrible", would someone on earth see it as "terrible", not someone in heaven which magnificence would make even the best life here look like suffering?  Will they be in pain and torment that they desire to be uncreated? (I wonder if you have ever been so sick that in that moment you have begged God to take you…I find it very hard to believe that God would set things up so that someone who had lived a loving life, if unsaved, would be in that kind of suffering…many people don't realize how close that line is or what it is like when it goes on and on).

[Jim Stiles]

That is only begging the question.  If you can't answer just say so.

I can't say anything beyond what has already been said.

[ERayR]

The best explanation I have heard is: The question is not why he does not save all, but why does he save any?

 

I don't think I like the Calvinist God very much.  He is too arbitrary and capricious.  I much prefer the Mormon God who is loving and charitable.

[Jim Stiles]

But is it suffering for sure?  Say a nonelect person has been kind and loving and while not full of sin, still he has harmed no one that he didnot try to help once realizing it and who even though not good because he has not been called by God, is still not a bad person.

 

Someone who has all their life sacrificed their own needs to help others out of love and kindness and not out of getting rewards in heaven.  When you say "terrible", would someone on earth see it as "terrible", not someone in heaven which magnificence would make even the best life here look like suffering?  Will they be in pain and torment that they desire to be uncreated? (I wonder if you have ever been so sick that in that moment you have begged God to take you…I find it very hard to believe that God would set things up so that someone who had lived a loving life, if unsaved, would be in that kind of suffering…many people don't realize how close that line is or what it is like when it goes on and on).

The best place in hell is indeed a place of suffering.

[Bobbieaware]

I don't think I like the Calvinist God very much.  He is too arbitrary and capricious.  I much prefer the Mormon God who is loving and charitable.

And it also seems to be true that the uncharitable and capricious nature of the Calvinist God has deeply permeated the personality and attitude of at least one of its adherents.

[bluebell]

The best explanation I have heard is: The question is not why he does not save all, but why does he save any?

I don't think that question makes sense, as it implies that it would have been completely reasonable for God to create all of us in order to damn everyone.

That contradicts the theology of a loving and merciful God.