Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[thesometimesaint]

Yes, that the Mormon God is characterized by his quality of being finite. A human being can be exalted as much as possible, yet will still be finite.

 

His physicality is finite. His power is infinite.

[Jim Stiles]

D&C 88:7-13

7 Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.

8 As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made;

9 As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made;

10 And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.

11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;

12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—

13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

D&C 130:7

7 But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.

So much for being bound by time and space or space-time.

If all things past, present, and future are before the Mormon God, then what about the things that were so before the Mormon God became a God?

[ERayR]

His physicality is finite. His power is infinite.

 

I think Jim has difficulty thinking in more than one dimension.

[Jim Stiles]

... 

Btw; The King Follett Discourse isn't LDS Doctrine

Yes, it is.

[Jim Stiles]

And your point?

The Mormon God is finite.

[ERayR]

If all things past, present, and future are before the Mormon God, then what about the things that were so before the Mormon God became a God?

 

Like what?  Example please.

[Jim Stiles]

His physicality is finite. His power is infinite.

Which means that is he is bound to space-time.

[Flyonthewall]

If all things past, present, and future are before the Mormon God, then what about the things that were so before the Mormon God became a God?

Please tell me about those things - I do not know of a time that God was not God.

[Flyonthewall]

The Mormon God is finite.

The "Mormon" God is the God of the Bible. We believe that the Atonement of Jesus Christ is an infinite Atonement.

Explain how a finite being can provide an infinite Atonement.

[Jim Stiles]

Please tell me about those things - I do not know of a time that God was not God.

Joseph Smith said that he knew that there was a time before God was God.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see.

-- Joseph Smith, The King Follett Discourse

[JLHPROF]

Joseph Smith declared, "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 345).

Mormon Apostle John Widtsoe stated, "God and man are of the same race, differing only in their degrees of advancement" (Gospel Through the Ages, pg. 107).

This concurs with Mormon Apostle Parley P. Pratt's comment which states, "God, angels, and men are all of the same species, one race, one great family..." (Key to the Science of Theology, 1978 ed., pg. 21).

 

Absolutely, 100%, agreed, I believe it.  Thanks for posting these wonderful quotes!

[JLHPROF]

 

Because the LDS God is limited to a physical body, he is not omnipresent. Brigham Young said, "Some would have us believe that God is present everywhere. It is not so" (Journal of Discourses6:345).

LDS Apostle James Talmage stated that neither God the Father, nor "any actual person of any one member of the Godhead can be physically present in more than one place at one time" (The Articles of Faith, pg. 39). The Mormon God's "omnipresence" is fulfilled through the Holy Spirit which, according to Mormon Apostle John Widtsoe, is not to be confused with the Holy Ghost (Evidences and Reconciliations, pp. 76-77).

 

Absolutely true!

[JLHPROF]

Yes, that the Mormon God is characterized by his quality of being finite. A human being can be exalted as much as possible, yet will still be finite.

 

Both true and false.  But I fail to understand your purpose in posting all these wonderful quotes.

This is a Mormon board.  The people here believe them (for the most part).  Are you trying to tell us they are false, because that seems a pointless exercise?

 

Anti-Mormon tactic #1A - Tell Mormons about their own beliefs as if it will cause them to question.

Flaw with Anti-Mormon tactic #1A - We already know and belief these things.  They are neither shocking nor doubt causing.

[thesometimesaint]

Which means that is he is bound to space-time.

 

Nope. It just means he has a body.

SEE John 20:27

King James Bible

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

[JLHPROF]

Joseph Smith said that he knew that there was a time before God was God.

 

 

Yes, he did, because yes, there was.  What's your point?  Oh, I know.  It's that you don't agree.

Well, you're not Mormon so why should you.

I'm Mormon and I agree with Joseph Smith.

 

This seems a pointless conversation.

[ERayR]

Which means that is he is bound to space-time.

 

Only in a finite mind.  Learn to think infinitely.

[Jim Stiles]

The "Mormon" God is the God of the Bible. We believe that the Atonement of Jesus Christ is an infinite Atonement.

Explain how a finite being can provide an infinite Atonement.

The Mormon God is bound to space-time. See: The King Follett Discourse.

The God of the Bible is not bound to space-time.

There is but one only, living, and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions; immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will, for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him; and withal, most just, and terrible in his judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.

-- Westminster Confession of Faith 2:1

[Jim Stiles]

Nope. It just means he has a body.

SEE John 20:27

King James Bible

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

When Jesus walked the earth, he was bound to space-time. After his resurrection, he could choose to be in one point in space-time when he wanted to be in one point in space-time, but was not limited by space-time.

[ERayR]

When Jesus walked the earth, he was bound to space-time. After his resurrection, he could choose to be in one point in space-time when he wanted to be in one point in space-time, but was not limited by space-time.

 

And he came to show us the way.  He said "come follow me".

[Jim Stiles]

Both true and false.  But I fail to understand your purpose in posting all these wonderful quotes.

This is a Mormon board.  The people here believe them (for the most part).  Are you trying to tell us they are false, because that seems a pointless exercise?

 

Anti-Mormon tactic #1A - Tell Mormons about their own beliefs as if it will cause them to question.

Flaw with Anti-Mormon tactic #1A - We already know and belief these things.  They are neither shocking nor doubt causing.

Those posts established that the Mormon God is finite in space (he has a body) and finite in time (he has not always been God). This belief in a finite God is enough to prevent Mormons from ever being considered Christian.

[JLHPROF]

Those posts established that the Mormon God is finite in space (he has a body) and finite in time (he has not always been God). This belief in a finite God is enough to prevent Mormons from ever being considered Christian.

By other Christian sects.  And who cares what they think?

I think I'm Christian.  As long as Christ thinks I'm Christian when he returns that's all that matters.  The opinion of Calvinists, Baptists, Methodists, Catholics or Lutherans on MY Christianity is even less than irrelevant to anything.

 

(And BTW - -- Westminster Confession of Faith 2:1 is NOT the Bible, it is mans interpretation of the Bible and has no bearing on the nature of God).

Edited December 27, 2014 by JLHPROF

[ERayR]

Those posts established that the Mormon God is finite in space (he has a body) and finite in time (he has not always been God). This belief in a finite God is enough to prevent Mormons from ever being considered Christian.

 

And you read and quote them without any idea how a Mormon understands them. 

[thesometimesaint]

Those posts established that the Mormon God is finite in space (he has a body) and finite in time (he has not always been God). This belief in a finite God is enough to prevent Mormons from ever being considered Christian.

 

God has a body as established by the Bible.

[Flyonthewall]

The Mormon God is bound to space-time. See: The King Follett Discourse.

That is your conclusion, not our teaching.

The God of the Bible is not bound to space-time.

Funny, what you quote is not from the bible, it is from your own faith. So it could be said you believe in the Westminster god.

So now you have brought up the "Mormon" god, the Biblical God, and the "Westminster" god - just how many gods do you subscribe to?

[Jim Stiles]

By other Christian sects.  And who cares what they think?

I think I'm Christian.  As long as Christ thinks I'm Christian when he returns that's all that matters.  The opinion of Calvinists, Baptists, Methodists, Catholics or Lutherans on MY Christianity is even less than irrelevant to anything.

 

(And BTW - -- Westminster Confession of Faith 2:1 is NOT the Bible, it is mans interpretation of the Bible and has no bearing on the nature of God).

Oh, I forgot the scripture proofs for Westminster Confession of Faith 2:1

y. Acts 15:15. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written …

John 5:46. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of

me. See 2 Pet. 1:20–21.

z. Matt. 22:29, 31. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing

the scriptures, nor the power of God.… But as touching the resurrection of the dead,

have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying … Acts 28:25. And

when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken

one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers … See

1 John 4:1–6.

a. Deut. 6:4. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. 1 Cor. 8:4, 6. As

concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols,

we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but

one.… But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in

him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. See Gal.

3:20.

b. 1 Thess. 1:9. For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we

had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God.

Jer. 10:10. But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king:

at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his

indignation.

c. Job 11:7–9. Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the

Almighty unto perfection? It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than

hell; what canst thou know? The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader

than the sea. Job 26:14. Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a portion is

heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand? See Ps. 139:6.

d. John 4:24. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in

spirit and in truth.

e. 1 Tim. 1:17. Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise

God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. See John 1:18.

f. Deut. 4:15–16. Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no

manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the

midst of the fire: lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude

of any figure, the likeness of male or female. Cf. John 4:24 with Luke 24:39.

g. Acts 14:11, 15. And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up

their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the

likeness of men.… and saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like

passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto

the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are

therein.

h. James 1:17. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh

down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of

turning. Mal. 3:6. For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are

not consumed.

i. 1 Kings 8:27. But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and

heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Jer. 23:23–24. Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off ? Can any

hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill

heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

k. Ps. 90:2. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed

the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. See

1 Tim. 1:17.

l. Ps. 145:3. Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is

unsearchable. See Rom. 11:34.

m. Gen. 17:1. And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared

to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be

thou perfect. Rev. 4:8. And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him;

and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy,

holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

n. Rom. 16:27. To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

o. Isa. 6:3. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of

hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. See Rev. 4:8.

p. Ps. 115:3. But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath

pleased. See Isa. 14:24.

q. Isa. 45:5–6. I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me:

I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: that they may know from the rising of

the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is

none else. See Ex. 3:14.

r. Eph. 1:11. … in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated

according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his

own will.

s. Prov. 16:4. The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked

for the day of evil. Rom. 11:36. For of him, and through him, and to him, are all

things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. See Rev. 4:11.

t. 1 John 4:8. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. See 1 John

4:16; John 3:16.

u. Ex. 34:6–7. And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD,

The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness

and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and

sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers

upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth

generation.

w. Heb. 11:6. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh

to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek

him.

x. Neh. 9:32–33. Now therefore, our God, the great, the mighty, and the terrible

God, who keepest covenant and mercy, let not all the trouble seem little before

thee, that hath come upon us, on our kings, on our princes, and on our priests, and on

our prophets, and on our fathers, and on all thy people, since the time of the kings of

Assyria unto this day. Howbeit thou art just in all that is brought upon us; for thou hast

done right, but we have done wickedly. See Heb. 10:28–31.

y. Rom. 1:18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness

and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. Ps. 5:5–6.

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt

destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

See Ps. 11:5.

z. Ex. 34:7a. … keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression

and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty. See Nah. 1:2–3, 6.