Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Jim Stiles]

    As Joseph Smith once stated - we must gather up all truth no matter where the source or else we will not come out True Mormons.

   

   In response to our new critic - Calvinist Jim Stiles -     http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/kingdom.htm

 

 

    In His Debt/Grace

            Anakin7

 

Yes, I agree.  Those who are regenerated, persevere to the end.

[Anakin7]

       Yes but are they - "Pre - Destined " to regeneration and perseverence ?.

       And how about the other Legion of scripture references ?

 

       In His Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

Edited December 27, 2014 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

       Moderator was that post # 2144 with the link to the Anti LDS site - Mormonism Research Ministry by Jim Stiles alowed according to the Board Rules ?, just curious.

 

       In His Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

[Jim Stiles]

Are you and MormonFreeThinker related?

 

Who is MormonFreeThinker?

[Jim Stiles]

       Yes but are they - "Pre - Destined " to regeneration and perseverence ?.

       And how about the other Legion of scripture references ?

 

       In His Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

 

Yes, Christians are predestined to be regenerated (born again) and to persevere after regeneration.

[Jim Stiles]

The better thing for you to do is demonstrate that blog is correct. It is full of inaccuracies - The person who wrote it either was never LDS, or did/does not understand LDS teachings.

 

I see no error in the post's description of the Biblical Christ.

 

I also see no error in the post's description of the Mormon Jesus.  You are welcome to prove me wrong.

[Jim Stiles]

No it doesn't but your non biblical Calvinism requires it of you to say so.

Faith is a work. Unless of course in the silliness of Calvinism God grants your faith based on his simple predestined election.

By the way the (false) God Calvinism creates is simply a monster.

 

No, it is not.  Without God's unmerited favor towards Christians, Christians would not even have faith.

[pogi]

Without God's unmerited favor towards Christians, Christians would not even have faith.

 

If God has "unmerited favor" towards Christians, that means that He has unmerited disfavor towards non-Christians.  That would make God both unjust and unmerciful.  We are talking about unmerited eternal suffering, what about that seems right to you?! 

[Flyonthewall]

I see no error in the post's description of the Biblical Christ.

 

I also see no error in the post's description of the Mormon Jesus.  You are welcome to prove me wrong.

Let's start with number 1 of the description of LDS God-

1. He lives as a humanoid god on a star near Kolob along with his father god, bound by the physical world; he does not transcend the material.

"He lives as a humanoid god". This is mere framing. Do you describe Jesus Christ as "humanoid"? We don't. We believe He IS human and God. Strike one. (actually strike one and two, but we will be lenient)

"on a star near Kolob" He does not live on a star near Kolob, Kolob is a star nearest the throne of God(Abraham 3:2&3) Strike two.

"Along with his father god". Is that how you describe God the Father? Framing again. Foul tip

"Bound by the physical world" - you will need to show me where that is so this is a CFR on that. Strike three

"He does not transcend the material". Again CFR. Strike four.

Your credibility is found wanting.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Flyonthewall

[Anakin7]

       I will post a response to  #2155 later today if I have time. Off to work. Will say that  it is not true pertaining to predestinstion and no once Saved always saved.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

Edited December 27, 2014 by Anakin7

[Teancum]

No, it is not.  Without God's unmerited favor towards Christians, Christians would not even have faith.

Like I said a monster God. Good thing such a being does not exist.

[Jim Stiles]

Let's start with number 1 of the description of LDS God-

1. He lives as a humanoid god on a star near Kolob along with his father god, bound by the physical world; he does not transcend the material.

"He lives as a humanoid god". This is mere framing. Do you describe Jesus Christ as "humanoid"? We don't. We believe He IS human and God. Strike one. (actually strike one and two, but we will be lenient)

"on a star near Kolob" He does not live on a star near Kolob, Kolob is a star nearest the throne of God(Abraham 3:2&3) Strike two.

"Along with his father god". Is that how you describe God the Father? Framing again. Foul tip

"Bound by the physical world" - you will need to show me where that is so this is a CFR on that. Strike three

"He does not transcend the material". Again CFR. Strike four.

Your credibility is found wanting.

 

BTW, most any religious web site that is not specifically LDS could be characterized as an anti-LDS web site.

 

The blog post recognizes that the LDS define God differently than the Bible does.

 

Both the Mormon God the Father and the Mormon Jesus are bound by space-time.  I will post a reference later.

[thesometimesaint]

The Devils believe and tremble. The Calvinist God is a monster.

[Jim Stiles]

BTW, most any religious web site that is not specifically LDS could be characterized as an anti-LDS web site.

 

The blog post recognizes that the LDS define God differently than the Bible does.

 

Both the Mormon God the Father and the Mormon Jesus are bound by space-time.  I will post a reference later.

 

Because the LDS God is limited to a physical body, he is not omnipresent. Brigham Young said, "Some would have us believe that God is present everywhere. It is not so" (Journal of Discourses6:345).

LDS Apostle James Talmage stated that neither God the Father, nor "any actual person of any one member of the Godhead can be physically present in more than one place at one time" (The Articles of Faith, pg. 39). The Mormon God's "omnipresence" is fulfilled through the Holy Spirit which, according to Mormon Apostle John Widtsoe, is not to be confused with the Holy Ghost (Evidences and Reconciliations, pp. 76-77).

[ERayR]

BTW, most any religious web site that is not specifically LDS could be characterized as an anti-LDS web site.

 

The blog post recognizes that the LDS define God differently than the Bible does.

 

Both the Mormon God the Father and the Mormon Jesus are bound by space-time.  I will post a reference later.

 

You do have this rude tendency to tell others what they believe.  Is that one of the fruits of your salvation?

[Jim Stiles]

Let's start with number 1 of the description of LDS God-

1. He lives as a humanoid god on a star near Kolob along with his father god, bound by the physical world; he does not transcend the material.

"He lives as a humanoid god". This is mere framing. Do you describe Jesus Christ as "humanoid"? We don't. We believe He IS human and God. Strike one. (actually strike one and two, but we will be lenient)

"on a star near Kolob" He does not live on a star near Kolob, Kolob is a star nearest the throne of God(Abraham 3:2&3) Strike two.

"Along with his father god". Is that how you describe God the Father? Framing again. Foul tip

"Bound by the physical world" - you will need to show me where that is so this is a CFR on that. Strike three

"He does not transcend the material". Again CFR. Strike four.

Your credibility is found wanting.

Joseph Smith declared, "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 345).

Mormon Apostle John Widtsoe stated, "God and man are of the same race, differing only in their degrees of advancement" (Gospel Through the Ages, pg. 107).

This concurs with Mormon Apostle Parley P. Pratt's comment which states, "God, angels, and men are all of the same species, one race, one great family..." (Key to the Science of Theology, 1978 ed., pg. 21).

[Jim Stiles]

You do have this rude tendency to tell others what they believe.  Is that one of the fruits of your salvation?

In my experience, Mormons like to tell fibs about what their religion teaches so that they can gain converts. Ultimately, this strategy fails because once they experienced a few months of LDS teaching, the recent convert decides that the LDS are not true and stops attending services and paying tithing.

[ERayR]

 

Because the LDS God is limited to a physical body, he is not omnipresent. Brigham Young said, "Some would have us believe that God is present everywhere. It is not so" (Journal of Discourses6:345).

LDS Apostle James Talmage stated that neither God the Father, nor "any actual person of any one member of the Godhead can be physically present in more than one place at one time" (The Articles of Faith, pg. 39). The Mormon God's "omnipresence" is fulfilled through the Holy Spirit which, according to Mormon Apostle John Widtsoe, is not to be confused with the Holy Ghost (Evidences and Reconciliations, pp. 76-77).

 

It helps if you pay attention to the context.  It is disingenuous, at the very least, when you do not.  

[ERayR]

Joseph Smith declared, "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 345).

Mormon Apostle John Widtsoe stated, "God and man are of the same race, differing only in their degrees of advancement" (Gospel Through the Ages, pg. 107).

This concurs with Mormon Apostle Parley P. Pratt's comment which states, "God, angels, and men are all of the same species, one race, one great family..." (Key to the Science of Theology, 1978 ed., pg. 21).

 

You have the quotes now just put some effort into understanding what they say.

[Jim Stiles]

The Devils believe and tremble. The Calvinist God is a monster.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. If the vail was rent to-day, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,--I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form--like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see.

These are incomprehensible ideas to some; but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease for ever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon.) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power"--to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner, to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.

-- Joseph Smith, The King Follett Discourse

Edited December 27, 2014 by Jim Stiles

[ERayR]

In my experience, Mormons like to tell fibs about what their religion teaches so that they can gain converts. Ultimately, this strategy fails because once they experienced a few months of LDS teaching, the recent convert decides that the LDS are not true and stops attending services and paying tithing.

 

And your Christianity is okay with your bearing false witness against others?  

[Flyonthewall]

Because the LDS God is limited to a physical body, he is not omnipresent. Brigham Young said, "Some would have us believe that God is present everywhere. It is not so" (Journal of Discourses6:345).

LDS Apostle James Talmage stated that neither God the Father, nor "any actual person of any one member of the Godhead can be physically present in more than one place at one time" (The Articles of Faith, pg. 39). The Mormon God's "omnipresence" is fulfilled through the Holy Spirit which, according to Mormon Apostle John Widtsoe, is not to be confused with the Holy Ghost (Evidences and Reconciliations, pp. 76-77).

D&C 88:7-13

7 Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.

8 As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made;

9 As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made;

10 And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.

11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;

12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—

13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

D&C 130:7

7 But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.

So much for being bound by time and space or space-time.

[Jim Stiles]

You have the quotes now just put some effort into understanding what they say.

Yes, that the Mormon God is characterized by his quality of being finite. A human being can be exalted as much as possible, yet will still be finite.

[Flyonthewall]

Joseph Smith declared, "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 345).

Mormon Apostle John Widtsoe stated, "God and man are of the same race, differing only in their degrees of advancement" (Gospel Through the Ages, pg. 107).

This concurs with Mormon Apostle Parley P. Pratt's comment which states, "God, angels, and men are all of the same species, one race, one great family..." (Key to the Science of Theology, 1978 ed., pg. 21).

And your point?

[thesometimesaint]

 

The Devils believe and tremble. The Calvinist God is a monster.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. If the vail was rent to-day, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,--I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form--like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see.

These are incomprehensible ideas to some; but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease for ever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon.) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power"--to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner, to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.

-- Joseph Smith, The King Follett Discourse

 

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.King James Bible "Authorized Version", Cambridge Edition

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

King James Bible "Authorized Version", Cambridge Edition

 

Btw; The King Follett Discourse isn't LDS Doctrine

Edited December 27, 2014 by thesometimesaint