Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[pogi]

do you doubt that God desires that we know the Truth because i have said it? 

are you confused by Deuteronomy because i have quoted it? 

take the Lord at His word -- 

Divers weights are an abomination unto the LORD;

and a false balance is not good.

(Proverbs 20:23) 

 

No, no, and I do.

[Calm]

even the rocks will cry out if we keep silent -- 

just as Joseph Smith's "seer stone" told him: 

Some revelations are of God; some revelations are of man; and some revelations are of the devil.

 

Your research is faulty and behind the times…accurate information is out there that demonstrates this is a false memory by someone who wasn't even there.

[Calm]

it might sound that way when you don't have the context of why he said that -- because he had claimed to have a revelation from God and found out that it didn't come to pass. 

 

No he did not.

[danielwoods]

English requires the use of articles to clarify specificity.  the definite article (the) and indefinite article (a) are common.

 

Greek, on the other had does not use articles as consistently.  If you want to be specific you need to use a definite article but if you don't want to be specific, then no article is needed.

 

Also, the Greek doesn't use uppercase and lowercase letters the way English does.  All of the letter in this verse are uppercase Greek.

 

If you look at the Greek of that verse with a direct interlinear English translation you get this,

 

 

 

Notice that it doesn't NOT specify that "THE WORD WAS THE GOD"  but rather the none specific "GOD" was the specific "THE WORD"

 

Your interpretation is not required by the Greek text, but rather is somewhat contradicted by the Greek text.

 

To me, a more accurate translation would be,

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was next to God, and the Word was a god/divine."

The correct translation for this verse is "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

This is how it is rendered in the NASB, NIV, KJV, NKJV, ASV, RSV, etc..

[danielwoods]

This is exactly what the Jews did at the time of Christ and they had Jesus crucified.

Jesus was in their midst, but He did not measure up to their pre-conceived notion of what the Messiah would be...and taught things that were different than the "already known to be true" teachings.

It is a good thing that Jesus will come in power next time around so history will not repeat itself.

All of the first believers were Jewish. Those who sought to kill Jesus were corrupted by power and money, and saw Jesus as taking that away. Those Jews who studied the scriptures or tested the spirit, followed Jesus from the beginning.

[Vance]

The correct translation for this verse is "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

 

Nope! Just look at the Greek and you will see that I have it correct.

 

This is how it is rendered in the NASB, NIV, KJV, NKJV, ASV, RSV, etc..

All polluted by the Helenization of traditional Christian theology.  The preconceptions of the translators drove the translation, not the Greek text.  Too bad really.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Vance

[Vance]

But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?  when a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

(Deuteronomy 18:20-22) 

no warm fuzzy feeling in the gut mentioned here.

I have been trying to figure out what you point is with that.

 

The only think that comes to mind is that you are attempting to prove that Jonah was not a prophet.  I am not sure where that will lead our discussion, but I am listening, so please continue.

 

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith,

giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

(1 Timothy 4:1-3) 

false prophets and false spirits spoken of as "seducing" - i.e. appealing to the flesh - here.

Ok, so?

 

Why didn't you include these verses?

Matt. 7: 15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

 

Matt. 24: 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

      •  •  •

 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

Why warn about false prophet unless there were going to be true prophets?  You know, like Jesus said He would send?

 

Luke 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:

 

are your feelings weightier than the scriptures?

It is apparent that you are unaware of just how the Spirit works.  I am not really surprised.

 

will you trust God or trust men?

God, through His Spirit. 

 

No we don't trust men. Neither do we trust the men known as the "Reformers" who laid the foundations for the fabrication of your current theology.  And yet your trust them.

[coolrok7]

Fabrication implies made up. A false accusation Vance.

Joseph Smith,in some of his teaching is made up, an accurate statement to make.

[Teancum]

Fabrication implies made up. A false accusation Vance.

Joseph Smith,in some of his teaching is made up, an accurate statement to make.

All religious beliefs, systems, sects, varieties and so on have elements of fabrication and man made ideas in them...,yours included. And

Edited December 25, 2014 by Teancum

[coolrok7]

Teancum, the essentials of what I as an individual Christian believe are not fabricated nor made up which I can demonstrate. It is a given that there are fabrications in history but there is only one true faith delivered to the saints of the first century.

[thesometimesaint]

Teancum, the essentials of what I as an individual Christian believe are not fabricated nor made up which I can demonstrate. It is a given that there are fabrications in history but there is only one true faith delivered to the saints of the first century.

 

Categorically false.

SEE Ephesians 4:11-13King James Version (KJV)

¹¹ And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

¹² For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

¹³ Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Edited December 25, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[coolrok7]

How does this make what I said categorically false. I don't agree, perhaps you could explain what you mean?

 

By the way, Merry Christmas!

[Teancum]

Teancum, the essentials of what I as an individual Christian believe are not fabricated nor made up which I can demonstrate. It is a given that there are fabrications in history but there is only one true faith delivered to the saints of the first century.

Sounds a lot like a Mormon testimony to me. But merry Christmas to you all the same!

[coolrok7]

Thanks for the Merry Christmas.

[thesometimesaint]

How does this make what I said categorically false. I don't agree, perhaps you could explain what you mean?

 

By the way, Merry Christmas!

 

Where is the unity of faith, especially since it is your claim that Mormons aren't Christians?

 

Merry Christmas to you too.

Edited December 25, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[Anakin7]

       Lutherans of which coolrok is a spiritual child of are divorced children of Roman Catholicism. But they contain truth.

 

In His Debt/Grace

        Anakin7

[Teancum]

Teancum, the essentials of what I as an individual Christian believe are not fabricated nor made up which I can demonstrate. It is a given that there are fabrications in history but there is only one true faith delivered to the saints of the first century.

On a day other than Christmas I would love to see how you might demonstrate your faith is any more correct, true, etc than any other. Since my in depth study of Moromonism has led me at least to serious doubts about it I have been doing a similar study of early Christianity. Unfortunatly I find similar problems that are leading me to question some of Christanities founding truth claims. Along with this I have been studying some science focused on evolution nd the development of humans both as a species and in our anthropological development. Both seem to cast serious doubts to at least a literal reading of the Bibles creation account, coming forth of human beings, the Noah story and so on all of which seem critical to the fundamental claims of Christianlty and the need for a savior.

In additon I am trying to understand and read some of the issues of the proble of evil and suffering and how one reconciles those problems with a God that supposedly loves his creations.

Religion in general seems to be man contrived in so many ways and has tried to answer many of these issues and in many ways unsuccessfully. It also at least in human development has been used to build a society and even control the masses to the benefit of many of the religious leaders, prophets and priests.

Anyway lots here and probably more for another thread.

Still with all that I hope Christianity is true. I can't say I have tons of faith right now because faith is what religions recommend when they don't have answers. But hope can be a good thing.

[danielwoods]

Nope! Just look at the Greek and you will see that I have it correct.

All polluted by the Helenization of traditional Christian theology. The preconceptions of the translators drove the translation, not the Greek text. Too bad really.

Indeed the JW's agree with you, however there is not one Scholar can be found that supports their view or yours. Have the LDS changed this passage to reflect your superior translation efforts?

[Jim Stiles]

Can an LDS member in good standing with his church believe in the following items?

 

1. Trinity.  Three persons; one essence; no confusion of persons.

 

2. Justification by Grace through Faith.  Forgiveness of sin obtained by believing in Christ before doing any work at all.

 

I did not think so.

[Vance]

Fabrication implies made up. A false accusation Vance.

Martin Luther fabricated the priesthood of all believers myth.

 

The councils fabricated the doctrine of the trinity.

 

The five solas are fabrications.

 

They are in your and his theology. They are the fabrications of which I spoke.

[3DOP]

Can an LDS member in good standing with his church believe in the following items?

 

1. Trinity.  Three persons; one essence; no confusion of persons.

 

2. Justification by Grace through Faith.  Forgiveness of sin obtained by believing in Christ before doing any work at all.

 

I did not think so.

 

Perhaps there is not a Mormon here who would accept your two points. But I do not believe that it would be an impediment to "good standing" for an LDS to accept your two points if they were otherwise amenable to the Book of Mormon and the Restoration under Joseph Smith.

[Vance]

Indeed the JW's agree with you, however there is not one Scholar can be found that supports their view or yours. Have the LDS changed this passage to reflect your superior translation efforts?

On the contrary!!!

 

John 1:1c clearly attributes divinity or godhood to "the word" or Jesus Christ.

Emphatic Diaglott

1864, NEW YORK, LONDON (by Benjamin Wilson)

Rendering: "...and a god was the Word"

The Bible - An American Translation

1935, CHICAGO (by J.M.P. Smith and E.J. Goodspeed)

Rendering: "...and the Word was divine"

New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures

1950, BROOKLYN (by Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc.)

Rendering: "...and the Word was a god"

Das Evangelium nach Johannes

1975, GOTTINGEN (GERMANY) (by Sigfried Schulz)

"...und ein Gott (oder, Gott von Art) war das Wort"

Rendering: "...and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word"

Das Evangelium nach Johannes

1978, BERLIN (GERMANY)(by Johannes Schneider)

"...und goettlichen Wesens war das Wort"

Rendering: "...and god-like sort was the Word"

Das Evangelium nach Johannes

1979, WURZBURG (GERMANY) (by Johannes Schneider)

"...und ein Gott war das Wort"

Rendering: "...and a god was the Word"

[Vance]

1. Trinity.

As you understand it, no.

 

 

 

  Three persons;

Yes

 

 

 

one essence;

What does that even mean.  I don't find the word "essence" anywhere in the English Bible.

 

 

 

no confusion of persons.

I think we have a pretty good grasp on who the different persons of the Godhead are.

 

 

 

2. Justification by Grace through Faith.

With the correct understanding of what the New Testament writers really meant by their use of the word "faith", then Yes.

 

 

 

   Forgiveness of sin obtained by believing in Christ before doing any work at all.

It is fairly obvious that repentance brings forgiveness.  Repentance is a work.

 

Acts 3: 19 ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

 

 

 

I did not think so.

We are comfortable with where we are theologically.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Vance

[Calm]

Can an LDS member in good standing with his church believe in the following items?

 

1. Trinity.  Three persons; one essence; no confusion of persons.

 

2. Justification by Grace through Faith.  Forgiveness of sin obtained by believing in Christ before doing any work at all.

 

I did not think so.

And your evidence that these two points are required to be a Christian?  (I am assuming this is what you mean, if you are only saying that LDS generally are not Trinitarian Christians or Faith Only Christians, then ignore my question).

 

I am curious if you believe Catholics can be Christian given your second requirement (if it is a requirement).

[Teancum]

Can an LDS member in good standing with his church believe in the following items?

1. Trinity. Three persons; one essence; no confusion of persons.

2. Justification by Grace through Faith. Forgiveness of sin obtained by believing in Christ before doing any work at all.

I did not think so.

Mormons beleive In three persons that are in God in all ways but essence. They also believe these three person divinely I dwell each other so much that they have one mind and one set of thoughts.

Mormons beleive is justification by grace but believe faith, repentance, baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost are what leads to justification by grace. I refer you to D&C 20:1 to about 38 or so. That is where you will find the best creed of Mormonism on the trinity, justification and sanctification. Mormons do not believe in eternal security.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Teancum