Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Jim Stiles]

That is your conclusion, not our teaching.

Funny, what you quote is not from the bible, it is from your own faith. So it could be said you believe in the Westminster god.

So now you have brought up the "Mormon" god, the Biblical God, and the "Westminster" god - just how many gods do you subscribe to?

The scriptural proofs are in Post #2200.

[ERayR]

Oh, I forgot the scripture proofs for Westminster Confession of Faith 2:1

y. Acts 15:15. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written …

John 5:46. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of

me. See 2 Pet. 1:20–21.

z. Matt. 22:29, 31. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing

the scriptures, nor the power of God.… But as touching the resurrection of the dead,

have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying … Acts 28:25. And

when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken

one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers … See

1 John 4:1–6.

a. Deut. 6:4. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. 1 Cor. 8:4, 6. As

concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols,

we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but

one.… But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in

him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. See Gal.

3:20.

b. 1 Thess. 1:9. For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we

had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God.

Jer. 10:10. But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king:

at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his

indignation.

c. Job 11:7–9. Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the

Almighty unto perfection? It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than

hell; what canst thou know? The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader

than the sea. Job 26:14. Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a portion is

heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand? See Ps. 139:6.

d. John 4:24. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in

spirit and in truth.

e. 1 Tim. 1:17. Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise

God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. See John 1:18.

f. Deut. 4:15–16. Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no

manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the

midst of the fire: lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude

of any figure, the likeness of male or female. Cf. John 4:24 with Luke 24:39.

g. Acts 14:11, 15. And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up

their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the

likeness of men.… and saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like

passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto

the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are

therein.

h. James 1:17. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh

down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of

turning. Mal. 3:6. For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are

not consumed.

i. 1 Kings 8:27. But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and

heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Jer. 23:23–24. Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off ? Can any

hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill

heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

k. Ps. 90:2. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed

the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. See

1 Tim. 1:17.

l. Ps. 145:3. Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is

unsearchable. See Rom. 11:34.

m. Gen. 17:1. And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared

to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be

thou perfect. Rev. 4:8. And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him;

and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy,

holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

n. Rom. 16:27. To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

o. Isa. 6:3. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of

hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. See Rev. 4:8.

p. Ps. 115:3. But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath

pleased. See Isa. 14:24.

q. Isa. 45:5–6. I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me:

I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: that they may know from the rising of

the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is

none else. See Ex. 3:14.

r. Eph. 1:11. … in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated

according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his

own will.

s. Prov. 16:4. The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked

for the day of evil. Rom. 11:36. For of him, and through him, and to him, are all

things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. See Rev. 4:11.

t. 1 John 4:8. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. See 1 John

4:16; John 3:16.

u. Ex. 34:6–7. And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD,

The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness

and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and

sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers

upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth

generation.

w. Heb. 11:6. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh

to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek

him.

x. Neh. 9:32–33. Now therefore, our God, the great, the mighty, and the terrible

God, who keepest covenant and mercy, let not all the trouble seem little before

thee, that hath come upon us, on our kings, on our princes, and on our priests, and on

our prophets, and on our fathers, and on all thy people, since the time of the kings of

Assyria unto this day. Howbeit thou art just in all that is brought upon us; for thou hast

done right, but we have done wickedly. See Heb. 10:28–31.

y. Rom. 1:18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness

and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. Ps. 5:5–6.

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt

destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

See Ps. 11:5.

z. Ex. 34:7a. … keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression

and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty. See Nah. 1:2–3, 6.

 

Interpretations, aren't they wonderful.  We can choose and quote the ones we like and still we prove nothing except that we disagree on the interpretations.

[Flyonthewall]

Those posts established that the Mormon God is finite in space (he has a body) and finite in time (he has not always been God). This belief in a finite God is enough to prevent Mormons from ever being considered Christian.

The only thing you can say is that we are not Calvinist Christian. I am happy to not be Calvinist Christian. Tell me, is it true that your faith has a savlation lottery? Only those that win the lottery are saved? God decides who is saved and who is not so there is absolutely nothing an individual can do to affect their own salvation, and conversely, there is nothing an individual can do to affect their own damnation. Once damned, always damned. At birth the die is cast and there is nothing one can do to change it?

The God we believe in, is the same God you believe in. We simply understand different things about Him. Same being. Different beliefs - not a different God.

Once you can comprehend that, then a dialogue can begin.

[JLHPROF]

Oh, I forgot the scripture proofs for Westminster Confession of Faith 2:1

 

 

Impressive how you can read so much of God's word and come to completely false conclusions concerning him.

[Flyonthewall]

The scriptural proofs are in Post #2200.

We read the same scriptures and believe them too. Now what?

[Calm]

BTW, most any religious web site that is not specifically LDS could be characterized as an anti-LDS web site.

Only if they put effort into directly targeting the LDS Church with the intent of its eventual destruction.

[Calm]

Joseph Smith declared, "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 345).Mormon Apostle John Widtsoe stated, "God and man are of the same race, differing only in their degrees of advancement" (Gospel Through the Ages, pg. 107).This concurs with Mormon Apostle Parley P. Pratt's comment which states, "God, angels, and men are all of the same species, one race, one great family..." (Key to the Science of Theology, 1978 ed., pg. 21).

Have you actually done any studying yourself of the LDS belief outside of letting it all be interpreted for you by MRM?

Copy/pasting from their website without critical appraisal of where they've erred drops your credibility as a true Christian (and by that I mean one who follows Christ as best they know how) and presents you instead as someone who seeks out conflict for the sake of conflict, who would prefer to call his brother fool and damned than family and is uncaring and lazy about actually bringing some to God.

It is remarkable how many who come here to dump their sanctimous trash on us are Calvinists. Thankfully I have encountered Calvinists that are truly pure hearted and willing to give their all in service of God and do so through love and understanding, not indifference and dishonesty. Because of their example I have tried hard to come to an understanding of their beliefs about God and why such beliefs give them great joy and a sense of infinite love.

You however are not that kind of example.

Edited December 27, 2014 by calmoriah

[Jim Stiles]

Have you actually done any studying yourself of the LDS belief outside of letting it all be interpreted for you by MRM?

Copy/pasting from their website without critical appraisal of where they've erred drops your credibility as a true Christian (and by that I mean one who follows Christ as best they know how) and presents you instead as someone who seeks out conflict for the sake of conflict, who would prefer to call his brother fool and damned than family and is uncaring and lazy about actually bringing some to God.

It is remarkable how many who come here to dump their sanctimous trash on us are Calvinists. Thankfully I have encountered Calvinists that are truly pure hearted and willing to give their all in service of God and do so through love and understanding, not indifference and dishonesty. Because of their example I have tried hard to come to an understanding of their beliefs about God and why such beliefs give them great joy and a sense of infinite love.

You however are not that kind of example.

Yes, I was raised in the LDS church so I know where many of the skeletons are buried. I knew much of the erroneous LDS theology on my own, but web sites like MRM back up their statements with citations in the Journal of Discourses and other LDS literature. I have always known that the LDS do not believe that God was always God, but I did not have an online copy of The King Follett Discourse until I went to the MRM web site.

[JLHPROF]

Yes, I was raised in the LDS church so I know where many of the skeletons are buried. I knew much of the erroneous LDS theology on my own, but web sites like MRM back up their statements with citations in the Journal of Discourses and other LDS literature. I have always known that the LDS do not believe that God was always God, but I did not have an online copy of The King Follett Discourse until I went to the MRM web site.

 

I love how we talk in absolutes.

You are absolutely sure that LDS theology is erroneous.  I am absolutley sure that LDS theology is correct.

 

The error is in thinking we can convince the other or that the other doesn't realize.  Clearly you DO realize the LDS teachings.  Clearly I don't care that you think they are false because I think they are true.

 

That's the bottom line.  You cannot prove them false.  I cannot convince you they are true.

[Jim Stiles]

The only thing you can say is that we are not Calvinist Christian. I am happy to not be Calvinist Christian. Tell me, is it true that your faith has a savlation lottery? Only those that win the lottery are saved? God decides who is saved and who is not so there is absolutely nothing an individual can do to affect their own salvation, and conversely, there is nothing an individual can do to affect their own damnation. Once damned, always damned. At birth the die is cast and there is nothing one can do to change it?

The God we believe in, is the same God you believe in. We simply understand different things about Him. Same being. Different beliefs - not a different God.

Once you can comprehend that, then a dialogue can begin.

Calvinists believe that those who are chosen for salvation hear and belief the gospel of Christ. Those who are not chosen for salvation may hear but will never believe the gospel of Christ. People are chosen for salvation or damnation back in eternity past. Do you fear that you were not chosen for salvation? Then belief the gospel of Christ.

[JLHPROF]

Calvinists believe that those who are chosen for salvation hear and belief the gospel of Christ. Those who are not chosen for salvation may hear but will never believe the gospel of Christ. People are chosen for salvation or damnation back in eternity past. Do you fear that you were not chosen for salvation? Then belief the gospel of Christ.

 

So do Calvinists believe in the pre-existence (pre-mortal life) then?  I thought that sectarian Christians believed they didn't exist until created in the womb.

[Jim Stiles]

So do Calvinists believe in the pre-existence (pre-mortal life) then?  I thought that sectarian Christians believed they didn't exist until created in the womb.

Calvinists believe that human beings were chosen for salvation or not chosen for salvation before they were created. Human beings did not exist until they were either created (Adam and Eve) or procreated (everyone else).

[JLHPROF]

Calvinists believe that human beings were chosen for salvation or not chosen for salvation before they were created. Human beings did not exist until they were either created (Adam and Eve) or procreated (everyone else).

 

The others are right - the Calvinist God IS a monster.  To create some to save and others to damn, and give them no say in it.  Pure evil.

 

You will be thread banned if you insult other religions.

[Calm]

Calvinists believe that those who are chosen for salvation hear and belief the gospel of Christ. Those who are not chosen for salvation may hear but will never believe the gospel of Christ. People are chosen for salvation or damnation back in eternity past. Do you fear that you were not chosen for salvation? Then belief the gospel of Christ.

I believe the gospel of Christ.  I know I am saved.

 

I still don't like my faith being lied about.

[Jim Stiles]

I believe the gospel of Christ.  I know I am saved.

 

I still don't like my faith being lied about.

Where have I lied? You just don't like non-LDS people knowing the finer points of LDS theology.

 

You are going to have a very short stay here if you cannot engage in respectful discussions. Do not accuse others of "fibbing"

[JLHPROF]

Where have I lied? You just don't like non-LDS people knowing the finer points of LDS theology.

 

Well, to use your logic, if they don't like and accept LDS theology maybe God just didn't choose them to be saved...

"Calvinists believe that those who are chosen for salvation hear and belief the gospel of Christ. Those who are not chosen for salvation may hear but will never believe the gospel of Christ."

 

Maybe LDS should adopt that theology.  

Edited December 27, 2014 by JLHPROF

[Calm]

Where have I lied? You just don't like non-LDS people knowing the finer points of LDS theology.

I adore nonLDS people knowing the finer points of LDS theology. Just see how I and every other LDS on the board responds to 3DOP who tries hard to understand LDS theology as LDS do, nuances and all. There was a Calvinist who use to post here and elsewhere who I considered a dear friend, in a great part because he cared enough to try and instruct me on where I was in error and he also took the time to learn and get to know us as individuals, to the point where he could tease us about aspects of our faith and we wouldnt take it as an attack but just a shared experience of what it means to e human (we all have absurdities we treasure). Any instruction he did in pure Christian love and one could see that clearly. There have been many other Christians who have made this board a large extended family for me and who have helped me learn about faith in general and my own in particular in ways I have not been able to from fellowLDS and for that I am eternally grateful and I believe they were and are one of the many tender mercies God has given to me as I have sought him out throughout my life.

You otoh do not understand us or our beliefs no matter how much you insist that you do. And it is the insistence that you know better what we believe than we doand lack of humility or willingness to learn that I find distasteful. And I find your doing this alongside your praising of God revolting in its fundamental disrespect of God.

Edited December 27, 2014 by calmoriah

[ERayR]

Yes, I was raised in the LDS church so I know where many of the skeletons are buried. I knew much of the erroneous LDS theology on my own, but web sites like MRM back up their statements with citations in the Journal of Discourses and other LDS literature. I have always known that the LDS do not believe that God was always God, but I did not have an online copy of The King Follett Discourse until I went to the MRM web site.

 

Pardon me if I am skeptical but much of what you post does not show an understanding to equal a child in primary. 

[ERayR]

Calvinists believe that human beings were chosen for salvation or not chosen for salvation before they were created. Human beings did not exist until they were either created (Adam and Eve) or procreated (everyone else).

 

And just how does one know in which group he/she is in?

[Calm]

Pardon me if I am skeptical but much of what you post does not show an understanding to equal a child in primary.

He didn't say how old he was when he left....or how active though that doesn't necessarily relate. I have a sibling who I know attended just as much as I did and yet her understanding of the scriptures was practically nil in college, didn't know the story of David and Goliath even....how does one even go through the extended American culture without picking that up. My sibling wasn't stupid, I have no clue how it happened.

[JLHPROF]

The others are right - the Calvinist God IS a monster.  To create some to save and others to damn, and give them no say in it.  Pure evil.

 

You will be thread banned if you insult other religions.

My apologies. It won't happen again. I was just attempting to show agreement with some previous posters, here and here and here.

Edited December 28, 2014 by JLHPROF

[ERayR]

He didn't say how old he was when he left....or how active though that doesn't necessarily relate. I have a sibling who I know attended just as much as I did and yet her understanding of the scriptures was practically nil in college, didn't know the story of David and Goliath even....how does one even go through the extended American culture without picking that up. My sibling wasn't stupid, I have no clue how it happened.

 

I guess learning does require more than attendance.

[Calm]

It was very strange given four of us are kind of considered scriptural scholars by our local communities, I believe. I wouldnt claim it for myself, familiarity does not always mean understanding and until one studies for oneself how can another's insights be judged accurately?

[Flyonthewall]

Calvinists believe that those who are chosen for salvation hear and belief the gospel of Christ. Those who are not chosen for salvation may hear but will never believe the gospel of Christ. People are chosen for salvation or damnation back in eternity past. Do you fear that you were not chosen for salvation? Then belief the gospel of Christ.

Would it really matter if I was not chosen for salvation? Would there be anything I could do to affect my salvation? or was I created for the express purpose to be damned? for all eternity for nothing I have done...simply for the pleasure of God? Is this your belief?

[Calm]

I would like to know the eternal state of the person who thought he was saved and did what he thought the Spirit was telling him to do to draw closer to God, abided by the precepts of the Bible as best he could while accepting that he would never be perfect and that any good he did was a result of God acting through him, not his own abilities.

 

If this person has not committed any horrendous sins or taken malicious delight in harming another and has been a truly kind and loving thought obviously not sinless person even if not saved by God, does he end up suffering, burning eternally on the same level as an unsaved murderer who delighted in torturing his victims?  Is there somewhere a part of hell where people may not be happy, but they are comfortable, sorrowing but not in significant pain?

 

Or is hell a one size fits all place in Jim's version of Calvinist belief?

 

 

Add-on: sincere question, my apologies if it comes across as snide at all.  The reference to Calvinism versions is not a slam, but I am just cautious about assuming what someone believes based on labels because I have found such a wide range, it is better to ask than assume if it is important to know a belief.  This variation occurs with many beliefs among LDS as well so it is not imo an inherent failing in a faith.

Edited December 28, 2014 by calmoriah