Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[danielwoods]

On the contrary!!!

 

John 1:1c clearly attributes divinity or godhood to "the word" or Jesus Christ.

Emphatic Diaglott

1864, NEW YORK, LONDON (by Benjamin Wilson)

Rendering: "...and a god was the Word"

The Bible - An American Translation

1935, CHICAGO (by J.M.P. Smith and E.J. Goodspeed)

Rendering: "...and the Word was divine"

New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures

1950, BROOKLYN (by Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc.)

Rendering: "...and the Word was a god"

Das Evangelium nach Johannes

1975, GOTTINGEN (GERMANY) (by Sigfried Schulz)

"...und ein Gott (oder, Gott von Art) war das Wort"

Rendering: "...and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word"

Das Evangelium nach Johannes

1978, BERLIN (GERMANY)(by Johannes Schneider)

"...und goettlichen Wesens war das Wort"

Rendering: "...and god-like sort was the Word"

Das Evangelium nach Johannes

1979, WURZBURG (GERMANY) (by Johannes Schneider)

"...und ein Gott war das Wort"

Rendering: "...and a god was the Word"

It's hardly worth responding to this. One, it's not an LDS argument (they aren't going to rewrite the KJV as you are). And the JW (Jehovah Witnesses) have been long disproven in their arguments. They used no scholars to produce the NWT (New World Translation), that you are depending on here.

I will give you one quote from the linked site below.

"3. By asserting that the anarthrous theos should be rendered indefinite (“a god”), the JWs impose their own translational rule: anarthrous nouns = an indefinite meaning. But in fact, the anarthrous theos appears 282 times in the NT! Only at sixteen places does the NWT translate these 282 anarthrous occurrences of theos as indefinite.[6] Hence, the NWT was faithful to its translational rule only six-percent of the time![7] For example, the anarthrous theos appears in John 1:6, 12, 13, and 18, but yet the NWT did not follow its so-called translational rule at those passages. Only at John 1:1c did it do so—for obvious reasons."

http://www.christiandefense.org/NWT.John%201.1_article.htm

[Jim Stiles]

Perhaps there is not a Mormon here who would accept your two points. But I do not believe that it would be an impediment to "good standing" for an LDS to accept your two points if they were otherwise amenable to the Book of Mormon and the Restoration under Joseph Smith.

 

I would be surprised if someone could get a TR, if the Bishop knew that the person asking for a TR held to those two positions.

[Jim Stiles]

Mormons beleive In three persons that are in God in all ways but essence. They also believe these three person divinely I dwell each other so much that they have one mind and one set of thoughts.

Mormons beleive is justification by grace but believe faith, repentance, baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost are what leads to justification by grace. I refer you to D&C 20:1 to about 38 or so. That is where you will find the best creed of Mormonism on the trinity, justification and sanctification. Mormons do not believe in eternal security.

 

The word grace means unmerited favor.  If salvation requires any works, then there is no room for grace.

[Jim Stiles]

And your evidence that these two points are required to be a Christian?  (I am assuming this is what you mean, if you are only saying that LDS generally are not Trinitarian Christians or Faith Only Christians, then ignore my question).

 

I am curious if you believe Catholics can be Christian given your second requirement (if it is a requirement).

 

Acceptance of those two points are necessary, but not sufficient, to be a Christian.

 

A Roman Catholic who believes what the pope says about justification cannot be a Christian.  But then the Roman Catholic church also preaches against homosexuality, and I know of one homosexual who apparently takes Roman Catholic communion without anyone preventing her from doing so.  Her congregation makes the best pepperoni rolls.

[Jim Stiles]

What does that even mean.  I don't find the word "essence" anywhere in the English Bible.

I am sure you know what essence means, even if you are unfamiliar with word. A table is one essence, but is not a person. God is one essence (Deuteronomy 6:4) and is three persons (Matthew 28:19).

 

I think we have a pretty good grasp on who the different persons of the Godhead are.

You may, but the author of the Book of Mormon subscribed to modalism.

Mosiah 15:1-4 — “And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son -- The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son -- And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.”

Mosiah 16:15 — “Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen.”

Alma 11:38-40 — “Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father? And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last; and he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that have eternal life, and salvation cometh unto none else.”

3 Nephi 1:14 — “Behold, I come unto my own, to fulfill all things which I have made known unto the children of men from the foundation of the world, and to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son—of the Father because of me, and of the Son because of my flesh.”

Mormon 9:12 — “Behold, he created Adam, and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son; and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man.”

Ether 3:14 — “Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have light, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.”

Ether 4:8, 12 — “And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh. . .For behold, I am the Father, I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world.

There are others passages in the BOM that support modalism.

 

With the correct understanding of what the New Testament writers really meant by their use of the word "faith", then Yes.

It is fairly obvious that repentance brings forgiveness.  Repentance is a work.

Acts 3: 19 ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

The word repentance means changing one's mind. It is an act that takes place entirely within the mind of the believer.

 

We are comfortable with where we are theologically.

Yeah, that is the problem. Then stop asking to be considered Christian.

[Anakin7]

       Those polemics have been responded to adinfinentum .

 

In His Debt/Grace

        Anakin7

[ERayR]

       Those polemics have been responded to adinfinentum .

 

In His Debt/Grace

        Anakin7

 

And the only thing I can ever conclude from this never ending cacophony is that it all depends on whose interpretation you choose to accept. 

[Teancum]

The word grace means unmerited favor. If salvation requires any works, then there is no room for grace.

So? The bible does not reach the hyper grace you think it does. Are you Calvinist?

Edited December 26, 2014 by Teancum

[JLHPROF]

The word grace means unmerited favor.  If salvation requires any works, then there is no room for grace.

 

Absolute poppycock.

 

Grace DOES mean unmerited favor.  But since our works are insufficient ALONE to bring us back to God, we need grace as much as anyone.

 

It is the idea of GRACE ALONE that is not biblical.  Grace is applied to make up our inability to perfect ourselves.  It is not applied so that we don't have to keep the commandments of God to the best of our ability.

[Teancum]

The word grace means unmerited favor.  If salvation requires any works, then there is no room for grace.

And by the way did you bother to read the D&C section I recommended? I was not arguing that Mormons beleive in hype grace. The only ones that do that I know of are Calvanists. Anyone other saved by grace only person at least has to choose faith and repent to accept Jesus as lord and savior and things a work.

It is ludicrous to plit hairs on this. The Mormon teaching in D&C 20 that I refernced is certainly justification by grace. Is is such in the Arminian sense but not Calvinist.

[coolrok7]

thesometimesaint, "till" is a time word. Paul is stating that these offices in the church body (as developed over time) was for the continuing process of how one arrives at the unity (content) of the faith (delivered to the saints according to Jude) which centers on Jesus Christ of Biblical, recorded revelation. The one Who appeared to Paul on the Road to Damascus to call him to ministry among the apostles.

 

There is no unity between Christians and Mormons when it comes to the essentials of Christianity even though some of the same terminology is used (not meant to be condescending but as I see it based on what I've been taught by Mormons on their own turf, in their classroom settings, Conference, etc).

 

I will explain more as asked by Teancum as to my statement concerning my faith (not fabricated or made up) based on Scriptural (Biblical) teaching. Not necessarily depending on the "Reformers" to arrive at my conclusions as a Christian.

 

Like most everyone else, I have a specific religious tradition I come from.

[Jim Stiles]

So? The bible does not reach the hyper grace you think it does. Are you Calvinist?

The Bible does teach grace alone via faith alone. Yes, I am a Calvinist.

[Jim Stiles]

And by the way did you bother to read the D&C section I recommended? I was not arguing that Mormons beleive in hype grace. The only ones that do that I know of are Calvanists. Anyone other saved by grace only person at least has to choose faith and repent to accept Jesus as lord and savior and things a work.

It is ludicrous to plit hairs on this. The Mormon teaching in D&C 20 that I refernced is certainly justification by grace. Is is such in the Arminian sense but not Calvinist.

Yes, I read D&C 20. It does not describe justification by grace. Period.

[Jim Stiles]

Absolute poppycock.

 

Grace DOES mean unmerited favor.  But since our works are insufficient ALONE to bring us back to God, we need grace as much as anyone.

 

It is the idea of GRACE ALONE that is not biblical.  Grace is applied to make up our inability to perfect ourselves.  It is not applied so that we don't have to keep the commandments of God to the best of our ability.

Care to back up that assertion that God's grace alone is not sufficient?

Romans 4:1-5 King James Version (KJV)

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

[Teancum]

The Bible does teach grace alone via faith alone. Yes, I am a Calvinist.

No it doesn't but your non biblical Calvinism requires it of you to say so.

Faith is a work. Unless of course in the silliness of Calvinism God grants your faith based on his simple predestined election.

By the way the (false) God Calvinism creates is simply a monster.

[Teancum]

Yes, I read D&C 20. It does not describe justification by grace. Period.

Yes it does. Period.

It is just not hyper grace. It is Amriniam in nature however.

See two can play this game. Isn't it fun?

[JLHPROF]

Care to back up that assertion that God's grace alone is not sufficient?

 

 

Simple.  It's nowhere in scripture.

 

Grace is not a "get out of keeping God's commandments" card.  It's the mercy of God making up the difference.  It's the attribute of God that allows him to be merciful and apply the atonement of our Savior to pay for the laws we we break through our sins so that "the wages of sin" (aka death) can be overcome and we can be resurrected.

Ephesians 2:8-10 confirms that even though we require grace to be justified/saved, our very creation was to do good works and God expects us to walk in them.

 

Romans 4 as you quoted simply shows that Abraham's works alone weren't enough.  He needed grace to make up the difference.  So it is with all of us.  But he STILL kept the commandments of God, he walked in good works,  and was blessed for it.

That is what the Abrahamic covenant was - Abraham did God's will and received blessings.  Hebrews 12:28 tells us that even when we receive God's grace we are still expected to serve him (works).

I'm not even going to drag up the James argument, although it's perfectly valid.

 

It is NOT "God loves us so we can do whatever we want and still receive salvation" and such a belief is nowhere in scripture.  It is that God loves us so he mercifully covered our inability to save ourselves from our sins. 

Grace replaced the law (the Mosaic law of sacrifice) as payment for sin (John 1:17), what Paul termed "works".  It did not remove any of the commandments that Christ himself requires us to keep - John 14.

 

And finally, Hebrews tells us that faith is the evidence of things not seen (Heb 11:1).  If you are to claim you are saved by faith in Christ, where is the evidence of this unseen thing?  Faith provides evidence.  How is that evidence manifested?  It is not enough to claim faith:

Matthew 7

²² Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

²³ And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

Many shall claim Christ as their Lord but their works will be iniquity in nature.  Much better to work righteousness that Christ may claim you I think.  If Christ differentiates between the faithful with wicked works and the faithful with righteous works, clearly more than being faithful is required.  So where is the evidence of the unseen faith unto grace?  It is in the works.

 

But since you are a Calvinist, none of this Biblical scripture will matter...

[Jim Stiles]

Simple.  It's nowhere in scripture.

 

Grace is not a "get out of keeping God's commandments" card.  It's the mercy of God making up the difference.  It's the attribute of God that allows him to be merciful and apply the atonement of our Savior to pay for the laws we we break through our sins so that "the wages of sin" (aka death) can be overcome and we can be resurrected.

Ephesians 2:8-10 confirms that even though we require grace to be justified/saved, our very creation was to do good works and God expects us to walk in them.

 

Romans 4 as you quoted simply shows that Abraham's works alone weren't enough.  He needed grace to make up the difference.  So it is with all of us.  But he STILL kept the commandments of God, he walked in good works,  and was blessed for it.

That is what the Abrahamic covenant was - Abraham did God's will and received blessings.  Hebrews 12:28 tells us that even when we receive God's grace we are still expected to serve him (works).

I'm not even going to drag up the James argument, although it's perfectly valid.

 

It is NOT "God loves us so we can do whatever we want and still receive salvation" and such a belief is nowhere in scripture.  It is that God loves us so he mercifully covered our inability to save ourselves from our sins. 

Grace replaced the law (the Mosaic law of sacrifice) as payment for sin (John 1:17), what Paul termed "works".  It did not remove any of the commandments that Christ himself requires us to keep - John 14.

 

And finally, Hebrews tells us that faith is the evidence of things not seen (Heb 11:1).  If you are to claim you are saved by faith in Christ, where is the evidence of this unseen thing?  Faith provides evidence.  How is that evidence manifested?  It is not enough to claim faith:

Matthew 7

²² Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

²³ And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

Many shall claim Christ as their Lord but their works will be iniquity in nature.  Much better to work righteousness that Christ may claim you I think.  If Christ differentiates between the faithful with wicked works and the faithful with righteous works, clearly more than being faithful is required.  So where is the evidence of the unseen faith unto grace?  It is in the works.

 

But since you are a Calvinist, none of this Biblical scripture will matter...

 

Those works that we do as part of out sanctification are the result of Christ working in us.  I am not saying that a Christian can willfully live a life of sin.  I am saying that salvation (justification, sanctification, and glorification) are SOLELY due to Christ's merit and works -- not our own.  Spencer W. Kimball says you have the power to life a sin free life.  The bible calls people who say that they are without sin liars.

[Jim Stiles]

No it doesn't but your non biblical Calvinism requires it of you to say so.

Faith is a work. Unless of course in the silliness of Calvinism God grants your faith based on his simple predestined election.

By the way the (false) God Calvinism creates is simply a monster.

The following is not mine. It was taken from:

[Redacted by Mods] Do not link to anti-Mormon sites.

Demonstrate that the author of this piece and I are wrong.

 

This is the Christ of Mormonism:

1. He lives as a humanoid god on a star near Kolob along with his father god, bound by the physical world; he does not transcend the material.

2. He is the brother of satan.

3. He had to earn his own salvation while he was on earth.

4. He offers his “grace” only to those who work hard enough.

5. He is not from everlasting to everlasting, but was created a finite time ago by his father god, who in turn was also created by his own father god, who in turn was created by his own father god, so on and so forth

6. He is not the greatest being possible.

7. He is finite.

8. His blood is not powerful enough to wipe away any sin.

9. He aided his father in creating earth by organizing already existing matter; he is not capable of creating things out of nothing.

10. He must submit to a moral law that existed before he did.

11. You can one day become just like him.

This is the Christ of the Bible:

1. He is a spirit being that transcends space and time.

2. He is the brother of no creature; He is God, from everlasting to everlasting. No one can claim kinship with Him except those He purchased for Himself on the cross. And He is not the same type of creature they are. He is not a creature, He is God.

3. Jesus is the Author of Salvation; to say that He needed to earn His salvation is absurdity.

4. He offers His sovereign grace to whomever He sovereignly chooses; we are all tainted by sin and vile in His holy eyes. Therefore, no one is more worthy than any other human being. Thus, His grace that He offers is given unconditionally. His grace is true grace, a beautiful gift.

5. He is from everlasting to everlasting. He was never created, and Has been in relationship with the Father and the Holy Spirit forever.

6. He is the greatest being possible, the Most High God. There is no one like Him and there is no one who will ever be anything like Him.

7. He is infinite, both in essence and in His divine perfections.

8. His blood is powerful enough to wipe away any sin, regardless of heinousness and duration. The only sin that cannot be forgive is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; and this is not because the blood of Christ is not powerful enough to wash it away, but because God has so sovereignly decreed that all persons who blaspheme the Holy Ghost should not receive forgiveness.

9. He created everything that exists out of nothing by the mere word of His mouth.

10. There is no external law that He submits to; He is the Author and the Source of the Law.

11. No one can ever come near to obtaining the glory and excellency of Christ.

[Flyonthewall]

The following is not mine. It was taken from:

[Redacted by Mods] Do not link to anti-Mormon sites.

Demonstrate that the author of this piece and I are wrong.

The better thing for you to do is demonstrate that blog is correct. It is full of inaccuracies - The person who wrote it either was never LDS, or did/does not understand LDS teachings.

[ERayR]

Demonstrate that the author of this piece and I are wrong.

 

 

Are you and MormonFreeThinker related?

[pogi]

The Bible does teach grace alone via faith alone. Yes, I am a Calvinist.

 

...and faith is granted only to those predestined souls whom God favors.  

 

As a Calvinist, it doesn't matter what you or I say, do, want, or strive for in the end, so what is your purpose here?  To mock us disfavored souls for not being chosen?  Even if I wanted God's grace as you preach it, it is not up to me according to your theology, so let me wallow in disfavor without your taunting. 

[Teancum]

The following is not mine. It was taken from:

[Redacted by Mods] Do not link to anti-Mormon sites.

Demonstrate that the author of this piece and I are wrong.

I am not here to defend Mormonism because I have serious questions about it even though I am still a member. I just think the fundamentalist Chritian should be honest in their portrayal of it which they are often not. I also believe most EVs who attack do not critically examine their own nonsensical beliefs in a rational way. Calvinism ranks top of the list in nonesenical Chrisitan theologies.

[Teancum]

...and faith is granted only to those predestined souls whom God favors.

As a Calvinist, it doesn't matter what you or I say, do, want, or strive for in the end, so what is your purpose here? To mock us disfavored souls for not being chosen? Even if I wanted God's grace as you preach it, it is not up to me according to your theology, so let me wallow in disfavor without your taunting.

Jim must think he is a tool of Gods irrestible grace that may be triggered in some lost Mormom soul who posts here. Edited December 27, 2014 by Teancum

[Anakin7]

    As Joseph Smith once stated - we must gather up all truth no matter where the source or else we will not come out True Mormons.

   

   In response to our new critic - Calvinist Jim Stiles -     http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/kingdom.htm

 

 

    In His Debt/Grace

            Anakin7

Edited December 27, 2014 by Anakin7