Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Jim Stiles]

Proof Text:  Joshua 24:15 - And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD

 

This certainly sounds like free will to me.

No where in that passage does Joshua say that his decision was made independently of God. Other passages that speak to the manner in which human beings make decisions indicate otherwise.

[Vance]

Then your argument is that I don't understand the divine.

That is not my argument, but if you believe in the mysterious doctrine of the trinity that no one can explain then you wouldn't understand the divine.

 

If I understand your argument, you are trying to use this passage to say that Jesus was of the "divine kind"?

That is what YOUR link said, or do you not grasp the meaning of "But semantically, theos is *qualitative,*"?

 

The JW's use it to say that Jesus is "a god" not equal to God the Father, but equal to a lessor god of some sort.

I don't care what the JW's use it to say.

 

But JESUS said, John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

 

Is that another one of those, it doesn't mean what it says because you don't believe it?

 

I've read your post many times, and it's clear you're trying to use an interlinear to make the greek say something, what that is exactly is not clear.

I am not trying to make the Greek say anything.  I am simply explaining what the Greek does say.

[Vance]

No where in that passage does Joshua say that his decision was made independently of God. Other passages that speak to the manner in which human beings make decisions indicate otherwise.

If your sins are forgiven, will you be saved?

[Jim Stiles]

Really, according to Paul, it is God's will that all men be saved.

 

1 Tim 2:4 (God) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

So, if God, "who will have all men to be saved" wants it, why does it not happen?

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Matthew 23:29-33 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Apparently, God does not want all men who have ever lived to be saved because some are punished with the never ending lake of fire.

[Jim Stiles]

If your sins are forgiven, will you be saved?

Forgiveness of sin does not come from works. Only those who have been chosen for salvation can repent of their sins.

[Vance]

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Matthew 23:29-33 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Apparently, God does not want all men who have ever lived to be saved because some are punished with the never ending lake of fire.

Ok, so the Bible is inconsistent and self contradictory.

 

Got it.

 

Acts 10:34 ¶ Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

 

So these verses don't mean what they say either.  Correct?

[ERayR]

Forgiveness of sin does not come from works. Only those who have been chosen for salvation can repent of their sins.

 

I feel sorrow for you.  What a bleak outlook you have and never knowing what your capricious God has in store for you.  It really does bring me sorrow.  Sorrow that you will not experience the real love of God.

[Vance]

Forgiveness of sin does not come from works. Only those who have been chosen for salvation can repent of their sins.

So the exhortation to repent so you can receive forgiveness of sins is totally meaningless?

 

19 ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

 

Again, why are you wasting your time.  According to you there is absolutely NOTHING anyone can do to be saved.  And there is absolutely NOTHING you can do to bring about the salvation of anyone else.  So you are wasting everyone's time including your own.

[Jim Stiles]

You are not really appealing to the Bible, but only to your (or Calvins) private interpretation of it.

 

You seem to think that your interpretation is the only valid or reasonable one.  And so you think that when you quote a scripture it is some sort of silver bullet.  But it isn't.  Your interpretation is no more valid than anyone else's.

If my interpretation is no more valid than anyone else's interpretation, what is prevent Warren Jeffs (I know that he is the leader of the FLDS and not a member of the LDS church.) from claiming that John 3:16 gives him the right to have sex with underage girls?

[ERayR]

If my interpretation is no more valid than anyone else's interpretation, what is prevent Warren Jeffs (I know that he is the leader of the FLDS and not a member of the LDS church.) from claiming that John 3:16 gives him the right to have sex with underage girls?

 

Nothing he can make as many fallacious claims as you.  There is nothing to validate his claims any more than there is for yours.  It is all interpretation and which one you choose to accept.

[Jim Stiles]

So the exhortation to repent so you can receive forgiveness of sins is totally meaningless?

 

19 ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

 

Again, why are you wasting your time.  According to you there is absolutely NOTHING anyone can do to be saved.  And there is absolutely NOTHING you can do to bring about the salvation of anyone else.  So you are wasting everyone's time including your own.

Indicatives cannot be derived from imperatives.

[Jim Stiles]

I feel sorrow for you.  What a bleak outlook you have and never knowing what your capricious God has in store for you.  It really does bring me sorrow.  Sorrow that you will not experience the real love of God.

No you don't. Tell the truth.

[Vance]

Indicatives cannot be derived from imperatives.

 

What part of "that your sins may be blotted out" is so difficult for you to understand?

Edited December 30, 2014 by Vance

[ERayR]

Forgiveness of sin does not come from works. Only those who have been chosen for salvation can repent of their sins.

 

Of what is there to repent from.  I am either saved or I am not.  Repentance can not affect it.

[Calm]

If my interpretation is no more valid than anyone else's interpretation, what is prevent Warren Jeffs (I know that he is the leader of the FLDS and not a member of the LDS church.) from claiming that John 3:16 gives him the right to have sex with underage girls?

Then why did you choose to use him as an example?

I still had hope you were here to teach and not score points even if I disagreed with your approach.

That hope is now gone.

[Calm]

No you don't. Tell the truth.

You are the liar here if you claim to read ERayR's mind.

What sanctimonious tripe you are spouting.

[ERayR]

No you don't. Tell the truth.

 

Oh but I do I would much rather embrace you as a friend and have a meaningful conversation than to exchange barbs.

[Vance]

If my interpretation is no more valid than anyone else's interpretation,

You have no more authority than anyone else, therefore your interpretation is no more valid than anyone else's.

 

what is prevent Warren Jeffs (I know that he is the leader of the FLDS and not a member of the LDS church.) from claiming that John 3:16 gives him the right to have sex with underage girls?

irrelevant gibberish.

[Vance]

Repentance brings forgiveness.

 

Isa 1:16 ¶ Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

  17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

  18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

  19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

  20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

 

Ezek 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

  22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

  23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

. . .

  27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

  28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

. . . 

  30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

  31 ¶ Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

  32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

[Vance]

Repentance brings forgiveness

 

Ezek 33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;

  15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.

  16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

. . .  

  19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.

[danielwoods]

That is not my argument, but if you believe in the mysterious doctrine of the trinity that no one can explain then you wouldn't understand the divine.

 

 

 

That is what YOUR link said, or do you not grasp the meaning of "But semantically, theos is *qualitative,*"?

 

 

 

I don't care what the JW's use it to say.

 

But JESUS said, John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

 

Is that another one of those, it doesn't mean what it says because you don't believe it?

 

 

 

I am not trying to make the Greek say anything.  I am simply explaining what the Greek does say.

 

It's clear what the Greek says. Not so clear what you are arguing. 

 

By the way, I agree with you that Jesus is divine. 

 

The Father is greater in his role as Father, not greater in essence. 

[ERayR]

It's clear what the Greek says. Not so clear what you are arguing. 

 

By the way, I agree with you that Jesus is divine. 

 

The Father is greater in his role as Father, not greater in essence. 

 

Are you positing they are one person (essence) or three?

[danielwoods]

Are you positing they are one person (essence) or three?

 

In answer to your question, no. The trinity is three persons, one essence. 

Edited December 30, 2014 by danielwoods

[JLHPROF]

In answer to your question, no. The trinity is three persons, one essence. 

 

What is "essence"?  Etymology says it means being.

 

So they are three persons but one being.

 

But person also means being (usually human being interestingly enough).

 

So they are three beings but one being.

 

Or three essences (beings) but one essence (being).

 

All three words mean the same thing...this is a false differentiation and a meaningless definition.

[danielwoods]

What is "essence"?  Etymology says it means being.

 

So they are three persons but one being.

 

But person also means being (usually human being interestingly enough).

 

So they are three beings but one being.

 

Or three essences (beings) but one essence (being).

 

All three words mean the same thing...this is a false differentiation and a meaningless definition.

 

 

How many beings are a Siamese twin? One or two?