Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[coolrok7]

Vance, the KJV Bible is the official translation your General Authorities use for the church. It doesn't use the "a god" of the New World Translation of the Jehovah's Witnesses. They use it to deny the deity of Jesus and say that He has a beginning, the why of the Nicene Creed way before they came along and due to the heretical teaching of Arius of Alexandria.

 

Another point to make, a part of the phrase, "very God of Very God" (an abomination according to your god) somehow made it into the BofM by way of Joseph Smith, his own words as dictated from the hat.

Edited December 30, 2014 by coolrok7

[Canadaigua]

I apply the same standard to the BoM as I do the Bible, it is what experience of the Spirit tells me as I study the scriptures that matters to me, not the text itself.  I have no problem adding "as far as translated" to the BoM as well as the Bible.  The BoM itself speaks of the likelihood of the errors of men being included in it.

When you are reading the Bible If a "spirit" tells you something that differs from what the Bible plainly states do you believe a "spirit" or the Bible?

[Canadaigua]

Nowhere, and I do mean NOWHERE in the Bible does it describe God in those terms.

 

That definition does NOT come from the Bible, but MUST BE injected into it from an external MAN MADE interpretation.

 

You can deny this OBVIOUS fact all you want.  You can continue with your contorted non-Biblical rambling explanations all you want.

 

BUT, it won't change that obvious fact.

So from your point of view the Bible teaches polythesim.

[coolrok7]

Why does the Church own the property then ErayR if its not important to them?

Edited December 30, 2014 by coolrok7

[ERayR]

When you are reading the Bible If a "spirit" tells you something that differs from what the Bible plainly states do you believe a "spirit" or the Bible?

 

Truly a gotcha type question.  I can't answer for calmoriah but for me this has never happened.  In the first place no book is plainly stated all is read through the lens of interpretation.

[coolrok7]

Vance, I had in mind Acts 1:8 in mind, my post of 2419, when you made your comment concerning Bibliolatry in post 2425. I worship the God of the bible not the Bible itself.

Edited December 30, 2014 by coolrok7

[Rob Osborn]

2432 posts later and I am still clueless as to what this thread is about...

Edited December 30, 2014 by Rob Osborn

[ERayR]

Why does the Church own the property then ErayR if its not important to them?

Do you truly not understand or are you being obtuse.  I did not say that it was not important I said the church is not its things. 

[Rob Osborn]

This post is like asking- Can Jesus Christ really be Jesus Christ?

[Calm]

When you are reading the Bible If a "spirit" tells you something that differs from what the Bible plainly states do you believe a "spirit" or the Bible?

I will tell you if it ever happens to me.

"Plainly states"..... That is so loaded with assumptions it is meaningless without clarification IMO.

It is not "a spirit", but the Holy Spirit I am engaging with when reading scripture.

Edited December 30, 2014 by calmoriah

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I will tell you if it ever happens to me.

"Plainly states"..... That is so loaded with assumptions it is meaningless without clarification IMO.

It is not "a spirit", but the Holy Spirit I am engaging with when reading scripture.

This is the old canard that the devil can inpersonate the HG. Such is not found in scripture.

[Calm]

I am a little out of it today. Took me a minute to register what was off and altering what I had expressed...at least in my own head.

I did say "the Spirit" and not "a spirit" so don't think the confusion is at my end.

Edited December 30, 2014 by calmoriah

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So from your point of view the Bible teaches polythesim.

It sure doesn't teach monotheism. The concept is completely foreign from its text and the original authors had no concept of monotheism.

[danielwoods]

Right, so we are all humans, that is the essance we share. So we are not 6 billion persons but one because we share the essance of human.

 

Same thing with God right?

 

No. 

 

Green is green because of it's infinite oneness.

 

This literially descibes nothing. 

 

I really do appreciate what you are trying to do it just doesn't work.

 

You should just stick to the "its a mystery" line. It is the only thing that will work for your theology.

 

When attempting to answer your questions, I will just say it's a mystery from now on. 

 

By the way, the trinity works fine in my theology, and I will spend an eternity learning about it. 

[danielwoods]

Yet you trust some post biblical council that uses words not found in the English Bible to describe in English what God is.

 

Strange that.

 

 

 

And yet you don't use Biblical words to explain what the Bible supposedly is saying.

 

 

 

Well, when men are doing it without revelation, like the post-bliblical councils of uninspired men did it, you just slop it up without question.

 

Strange that.

 

CFR that they are uninspired men. 

[danielwoods]

Not it is not derived from the Bible, and many non-LDS scholars agree.  It is a post-biblical invention that is retroactively injected into the man-made interpretation of the Bible.  John 1:1 being a perfect example.  The JW's got the translation correct, which is OBVIOUS, but getting the translation correct doesn't mean that they understand it correctly.  It doesn't demonstrate that Christ was equal to the Father.  It demonstrates that Jesus was Divine, or a god, not that He was equal to the Father.  Jesus definitively and clearly declared that the Father was greater. 

 

Why don't you believe Jesus when He says it?  If you won't believe Him, there is nothing we can show you that will convince you.

 

I have already explained that the different roles that God the Father has than Jesus, and the Holy Spirit for that matter, means that one is greater (in roles) than the other. However, there is no difference in essence between the three. They all share the same co-equal substance of "Godness"

 

What isn't taught in the text is the concept of another separate god. 

[danielwoods]

So this doesn't get lost as I am waiting for an answer.

 

If they are not three people are they then one people?

 

No. 

[danielwoods]

Well, Jesus was human, so by your explanation, you are denying the divinity of Christ.

 

 

 

And you are using special definitions of words kluged together resulting in a bunch of meaningless drivel.

 

A person, is a being, is an individual.  There is no such thing as three separate persons but one being.  Three separate persons ARE three separate beings.

 

For everyone else, this is true. For the one true God, this is not true. 

[Canadaigua]

I will tell you if it ever happens to me.

"Plainly states"..... That is so loaded with assumptions it is meaningless without clarification IMO.

It is not "a spirit", but the Holy Spirit I am engaging with when reading scripture.

Calmoriah  "I apply the same standard to the BoM as I do the Bible, it is what experience of the Spirit tells me as I study the scriptures that matters to me, not the text itself. . ."

 

Do you find that the "spirit" changes the words of the text as you read the Bible such that it is not the same words that are written?

[Canadaigua]

Truly a gotcha type question.  I can't answer for calmoriah but for me this has never happened.  In the first place no book is plainly stated all is read through the lens of interpretation.

When you say "lens of interpretation" could that mean reading your preconceived ideas into the text rather than simply reading the text as written

[Calm]

Calmoriah  "I apply the same standard to the BoM as I do the Bible, it is what experience of the Spirit tells me as I study the scriptures that matters to me, not the text itself. . ."

 

Do you find that the "spirit" changes the words of the text as you read the Bible such that it is not the same words that are written?

You want to play troll, go for it.

[bluebell]

Calmoriah  "I apply the same standard to the BoM as I do the Bible, it is what experience of the Spirit tells me as I study the scriptures that matters to me, not the text itself. . ."

 

Do you find that the "spirit" changes the words of the text as you read the Bible such that it is not the same words that are written?

 

You can't be serious.  You have got to be playing some kind of game with Cal because no one could be as obtuse in their interpretation of her post as you are being here.

[Teancum]

Indicatives cannot be derived from imperatives.

 

 

So in other words since it does not fit your interpretation you ignore it.

 

 

Here is another absolutely non Calvinist passage for you to chew on:

 

 

 

2 Peter 1:1-10

 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

 5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Edited December 31, 2014 by Teancum

[Teancum]

Teancum (post # 2117), what I or others believe, in order to be correct, one has to have a standard to measure against.

 

As a Christian (of the Lutheran, Missouri Synod tribe), my faith (trust and understanding) comes from the sixty canonical books of the Bible (which Mormonism accepts in addition to the other works of Joseph Smith and those who succeded him, which I don't accept as coming from God) from which I will give a defense.

 

I will try to elaborate on what I had stated in an earlier post concerning what I believe as not being fabricated.

 

I'll begin with this quote from the book of Revelation (translated into English from Greek documents, this the KJV):

 

 

Back in 2010, I went with a church group to Athens, Turkey, and Germany (my wife and I as the rest of the group went on home) in which I got to visit the Biblical places of my faith. It was an exciting trip.

 

The previous year I got to go to the Mormon pageant at Palmyra. It confirmed my doubts about Mormonism not being true.

 

 

I am not defending Mormonism.  I am looking for your evidence that the Bible is what it claims for itself and that Christianity it true.. .and then why your brand of Christianity?  The Bible has issue, it is internally inconsistent.  It claims to have writers who really did not write the text attributed to them. It contradicts itself and the text had been tampered with. It also contradicts much of science.

Why should I trust the Bible?

[Teancum]

I went as an opportunity presented a free plane ticket to go. It became really obvious to me when we visited the place where the church was organized at the little farmhouse of Peter Whitmer.

 

The was an overwhelming oppressive spiritual presence I (and others with me) became aware of while in the Fayette chapel located near the farmhouse. We were standing in the room where the busts of Joseph Smith and others were on display.

  And when I was a TBM Fayette confirmed to me that JS was a prophet. When I visited Ephesus as a skeptic I had doubts about Christianity.

 

Confirmation bias is a wonderful thing.