Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[MiserereNobis]

I am one who does not use "its a mystery".  I firmly believe that it is possible to at least get some of the mysteries answered.  The answers may be and usually are for personal consumption only.  You really ought to hear a High Priests group when I tell them there are no mysteries for those who seek.

 

(bolded mine): if not all, then there are still some mysteries

 

Do you really think there are no mysteries?  That you can truly fully comprehend (in LDS theology) how God became God, what exaltation exactly means, how the resurrection exactly works, what the power of the priesthood exactly is, that the celestial kingdom will exactly be like, the exact reason for all negative things in life, the exact... the exact.. the exact... etc...?

 

I think this elevates our mortal rational mind beyond its capabilities and diminishes the awesome power and being of God.

 

Remember St. Paul to the Corinthians (13:9-12):

⁹ For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

¹⁰ But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

¹¹ When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

¹² For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

 

Not all will be known until we see face-to-face (which is Heaven and the Beatific Vision in Catholic theology, and I would guess the celestial kingdom in Mormon theology).

[MiserereNobis]

Name one that doesn't have any answer.  There many be some with no official/canonical answer, but other than that they still have optional explanations.

 

Mormonism doesn't really accept the "can't know" answer.  At least it didn't used to.

 

Now, remember, to not be a mystery you have to be able to fully and completely explain it in all its details.

 

 

What is the exact process that allows a human like me and you to become a God?

 

or

 

How exactly did Christ pay for all of the sins of humanity? (the foundational and wonderful mystery of Christianity!)

[MiserereNobis]

What you are describing here is the mystery of the Trinity, the incomprehensible and unsolvable mystery in which the non-LDS Mormons rejoice. By admitting they do not know and understand how three separate and distinct individuals can converse with each other, and yet be one God of one substance, they have the luxury of having the controversy both ways (three personages, yet one God) without having to explain how such an oxymoron can be true. 

 

We also have the wonderful paradox that Jesus is 100% human AND 100% divine

 

And it is true that we rejoice in these mysteries, not because of some smug "we can have it both ways" but because the mysteries of God, for us, exemplify who He is.  In Catholicism, the liturgy (the Seven Holy Sacraments, and particularly Mass) are called "The Celebration of Christian Mystery."  We celebrate them through all of our rituals and rejoice in them.  Perhaps this is one reason why I find it intriguing (and, as I've admitted, a pet peeve) that mystery is so frowned upon in Mormonism or Mormon culture, because for us Catholics mystery is a wonderful thing.

 

 

Until non-LDS Christians are able to define and describe what that unifying substance of the Godhead actually is, there is no possible way to have meaningful dialogue with them as to the nature of the Trinity because by their own admission the whole thing is an incomprehensible and unsolvable mystery. For all the non-LDS Christians know, the Mormon definition and description of the unifying substance of the Godhead (the Eternal Spirit) is correct answer that brings resolution to their supposedly unsolvable mystery.

 

To use the LDS phrase, I have gained a testimony of the Trinity.  I know it is true.  Admittedly, I cannot describe or explain or even understand it fully in words, yet when I look at religious experience worldwide (start with James' The Varieties of Religious Experience) ineffability seems to be one commonality.  And the experiences I have had, some at Mass, some on retreats at a Benedictine monastery, have helped the part of me that is deepest and closest with God to experience the truth of this.  I sorely wish I could explain it so that others could understand, or that even I could understand it myself.  But I feel it and know it beyond words.  I rather think that some LDS folk here have had similar experiences in their religion, where they experience things that they cannot fully explain but yet they feel (inadequate word) deeply.

 

The mysteries of faith.

Edited January 1, 2015 by MiserereNobis

[JLHPROF]

Now, remember, to not be a mystery you have to be able to fully and completely explain it in all its details.

 

 

Nope, no moving the goalposts.  We don't have to know EVERY detail.  If that were the case EVERYTHING about the gospel would be so far beyond our understanding the entire thing would be considered a mystery.

As mfbukowski would say, we are like worms to even try and understand the details.

 

The questions you posed would make great threads on their own.  If we put in all the scripture and (in the case of Mormonism) prophetic teachings on the subject the concepts would probably no longer be considered mysteries.  The "every last details" however will probably never be revealed to man on earth and you know it.  Doesn't make the concepts mysteries, just means God's ways are not our ways yet.

 

But when it comes to the Trinity, we are supposed to just say it's incomprehensible when we look at it and it makes no sense?  Mormonism doesn't allow for nonsense.

To quote Elder Holland

 

No less a source than the stalwart Harper’s Bible Dictionary records that “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament].”

 

In the year A.D. 325 the Roman emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea to address—among other things—the growing issue of God’s alleged “trinity in unity.” What emerged from the heated contentions of churchmen, philosophers, and ecclesiastical dignitaries came to be known (after another 125 years and three more major councils) as the Nicene Creed, with later reformulations such as the Athanasian Creed. These various evolutions and iterations of creeds—and others to come over the centuries—declared the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost to be abstract, absolute, transcendent, immanent, consubstantial, coeternal, and unknowable, without body, parts, or passions and dwelling outside space and time. In such creeds all three members are separate persons, but they are a single being, the oft-noted “mystery of the trinity.” They are three distinct persons, yet not three Gods but one. All three persons are incomprehensible, yet it is one God who is incomprehensible.

 

We agree with our critics on at least that point—that such a formulation for divinity is truly incomprehensible. With such a confusing definition of God being imposed upon the church, little wonder that a fourth-century monk cried out, “Woe is me! They have taken my God away from me, … and I know not whom to adore or to address.”

[Flyonthewall]

It's actually the opposite of what you are arguing. The context of the statement is Jesus in his humanity praying for us. He knows that we can't ever be God as he is God, or as the Father is God, or as the Holy Spirit is God. That's the context or the "qualifier" if you want to understand that way. 

 

Given that context, our relationship connection to God is greater and deeper than the relationship animals have with God, or other created things. We are unique in that we have been created in his image, which means we experience a range of intellectual and emotional experiences that God is able to share with us, that he's not able to share with any other. So, while we are able to be "one" with God, even as they are one (in quality), we aren't ever going to be one to the extent or depth that they are one (in quantity), because of the limitation of our finite nature. We will always be a finite created being, and he will always be an infinite uncreated being.

You do this a lot. You say you get your teachings from the bible, but then you contradict the words that are recorded by interjecting your spin on them.

You say you have no doctrine to defend, but you defend your doctrine all the time.

Jesus used no qualifiers, yet your interpretation does not stand without them.

If Jesus meant it the way you interpret it, He would have said so.(sound familiar?)

[MiserereNobis]

Nope, no moving the goalposts.  We don't have to know EVERY detail.  If that were the case EVERYTHING about the gospel would be so far beyond our understanding the entire thing would be considered a mystery.

 

 

Now you've got it!  God and the Gospel are so far beyond our understanding that it is a mystery.  However, God has given us ways to approach understanding through verbal teachings, and God has given us means to approach understanding beyond the verbal, such as mystical experience.

 

I'm not moving the goalposts at all.  I'm just asking you to admit that me and you and everyone cannot understand all of God's ways, and what we cannot yet understand is a mystery.  The mysteries of the LDS faith and the mysteries of Catholicism are different, but there are still mysteries.  Denigrating Catholic mysteries simply because they are mysteries seems imprudent to me, because Mormonism has its mysteries, too.

 

As mfbukowski would say, we are like worms to even try and understand the details.

 

Exactly!  Now you understand what Catholics mean when we speak of the mystery of the Holy Trinity.  Our minds are like worms, so we cannot understand it.  But we will, God willing, experience it in Heaven, in the Beatific Vision, and understand it beyond words.

 

(PS I like mfbukowski, even if I am a backwards neo-Platonist and he is a confused post-modernist )

 

The questions you posed would make great threads on their own.  If we put in all the scripture and (in the case of Mormonism) prophetic teachings on the subject the concepts would probably no longer be considered mysteries.  The "every last details" however will probably never be revealed to man on earth and you know it.  Doesn't make the concepts mysteries, just means God's ways are not our ways yet.

 

Of course I know it.  It's a mystery.  God's ways are not our ways, and so there are mysteries.  Catholicism and Mormonism sometimes have the same mysteries (atonement, resurrection) and sometimes different ones (Godhead).  But there are mysteries and I'm glad you recognize that.

 

But when it comes to the Trinity, we are supposed to just say it's incomprehensible when we look at it and it makes no sense?

 

The Trinity in its details are incomprehensible, but there are ways to approach understanding, through study, of course, but also through the celebration of the mysteries, which is the liturgy.  Words and rationality can only take us so far, and then symbol and mysticism must take over.  There are thousands of books written on the Trinity to help us approach understanding.  A quick post on an internet forum isn't going to do it, obviously, just like a quick post on how light is both a particle and a wave isn't going to do it, either.

 

Mormonism doesn't allow for nonsense.

 

Neither does Catholicism.  Depends, of course, on how one defines "nonsense"

[danielwoods]

"You don't believe that he's fully human and fully God at the same time?"

They are not mutually exclusive. One could even say to be fully human (as in fulfill the full potential of humanity) is to be fully divine.

Thus not two natures.

They aren't mutually exclusive in Christ. However, the bible never teaches that man becomes infinite as God nature is.

[ERayR]

What you are describing here is the mystery of the Trinity, the incomprehensible and unsolvable mystery in which the non-LDS Mormons rejoice. By admitting they do not know and understand how three separate and distinct individuals can converse with each other, and yet be one God of one substance, they have the luxury of having the controversy both ways (three personages, yet one God) without having to explain how such an oxymoron can be true. 

 

Meanwhile, we Latter-day Saints also believe there are three separate and distinct individuals in the Godhead but remove the mystery out of the equation by declaring that the one substance that unifies the three personages of the Godhead is the Eternal Spirit of Truth -- the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost each being filled with the eternal fulness of that uncreated and holy spiritual substance. Not coincidentally, the scriptures teach us that this Eternal Spirit of Truth is the same divine substance that makes the saints one with each other and also one with God.

 

Until non-LDS Christians are able to define and describe what that unifying substance of the Godhead actually is, there is no possible way to have meaningful dialogue with them as to the nature of the Trinity because by their own admission the whole thing is an incomprehensible and unsolvable mystery. For all the non-LDS Christians know, the Mormon definition and description of the unifying substance of the Godhead (the Eternal Spirit) is correct answer that brings resolution to their supposedly unsolvable mystery.

 

I know but was trying to get him to face the congruency of what he was actually saying.

[MiserereNobis]

I must say that the Evangelicals have a hard time here, since they are so committed to sola scriptura.  It's nice being a Catholic (and a Mormon, ha!) to have teachings from those who have God's authority to help interpret what the Bible means, and to even have teachings that are outside of the Bible, but never in contradiction with it.

 

It's an interesting parallel between Mormonism and Catholicism

Edited January 1, 2015 by MiserereNobis

[Flyonthewall]

We also have the wonderful paradox that Jesus is 100% human AND 100% divine

 

And it is true that we rejoice in these mysteries, not because of some smug "we can have it both ways" but because the mysteries of God, for us, exemplify who He is.  In Catholicism, the liturgy (the Seven Holy Sacraments, and particularly Mass) are called "The Celebration of Christian Mystery."  We celebrate them through all of our rituals and rejoice in them.  Perhaps this is one reason why I find it intriguing (and, as I've admitted, a pet peeve) that mystery is so frowned upon in Mormonism or Mormon culture, because for us Catholics mystery is a wonderful thing.

 

 

 

To use the LDS phrase, I have gained a testimony of the Trinity.  I know it is true.  Admittedly, I cannot describe or explain or even understand it fully in words, yet when I look at religious experience worldwide (start with James' The Varieties of Religious Experience) ineffability seems to be one commonality.  And the experiences I have had, some at Mass, some on retreats at a Benedictine monastery, have helped the part of me that is deepest and closest with God to experience the truth of this.  I sorely wish I could explain it so that others could understand, or that even I could understand it myself.  But I feel it and know it beyond words.  I rather think that some LDS folk here have had similar experiences in their religion, where they experience things that they cannot fully explain but yet they feel (inadequate word) deeply.

 

The mysteries of faith.

The mysteries of faith indeed. You know the trinity is true, yet you do not know what it is that is true. For all you know, we may be right.

I don't mean to sound smug about it because in all faiths there is a point that we arrive at that we do not comprehend the next step - thus we take it on faith, not knowledge.

Even within the same faith, some understand things more deeply than others. We are not asked to live by knowledge, but by faith, yet what knowledge we can obtain can and will help with our faith.

[danielwoods]

You do this a lot. You say you get your teachings from the bible, but then you contradict the words that are recorded by interjecting your spin on them.

You say you have no doctrine to defend, but you defend your doctrine all the time.

Jesus used no qualifiers, yet your interpretation does not stand without them.

If Jesus meant it the way you interpret it, He would have said so.(sound familiar?)

 

And indeed he did. He stated what he did in the context of humanity. 

[MiserereNobis]

in all faiths there is a point that we arrive at that we do not comprehend the next step - thus we take it on faith, not knowledge.

Even within the same faith, some understand things more deeply than others. We are not asked to live by knowledge, but by faith, yet what knowledge we can obtain can and will help with our faith.

 

I think this is the exact point I am trying to make.  Maybe the word "mystery" has too strong of a negative connotation in Mormonism, so call it what you will, but there is always the point of not understanding but still walking by faith.  Sometimes the not understanding is verbal only (meaning that we know it but we can't express it), but it seems to me that in a life of faith there will always come a point of not knowing but still believing.

 

For me, St. John of the Cross's "Dark Night of the Soul" (both the poem and the treatise explaining the poem) helped so much, as did the writings of Thomas Merton.

[ERayR]

We also have the wonderful paradox that Jesus is 100% human AND 100% divine

 

 

 

I do not see this as a paradox.  To paraphrase Calmoriah from a few posts back, to be fully divine is to be fully human. (I hope I got that right Cal)

[Flyonthewall]

And indeed he did. He stated what he did in the context of humanity.

And indeed he did. He stated what he did in the context of humanity.

Your context of humanity or ours? Jesus was human. His human "nature" in no way kept Him from being "one" with the Father, and wanted to extend that same oneness with all of us. Not as far as possible, but in the same way. No qualifiers.

[danielwoods]

Your context of humanity or ours? Jesus was human. His human "nature" in no way kept Him from being "one" with the Father, and wanted to extend that same oneness with all of us. Not as far as possible, but in the same way. No qualifiers.

 

Jesus was God before he was incarnate. He humbled himself, and clothed himself with humanity. His oneness with the Father was already intact before he was human. 

 

As he said, you are from below (aka the Earth) and I am from above (aka Heaven). The context of our humanity is limiting. 

[pogi]

Maybe the word "mystery" has too strong of a negative connotation in Mormonism

 

"Mystery" has never had a negative connotation for me.   Perhaps it comes off that way when someone calls certain aspects of God a mystery when they are not a mystery to us. 

 

The difference is that the mysteries are not off limits in Mormonism.  They are not unaproachable, yet we acknowledge them at the same time - "How great is the mystery of godliness (D&C 19:10)."

 

Yet, we also have these:

 

If ye ask, ye shall receive revelation and know the mysteries of the kingdom:D&C 42:61, 65; ( 1 Cor. 2:7, 11–14; )

He who keeps the commandments will be given the mysteries of the kingdom:D&C 63:23;

 

To them will I reveal all mysteries:D&C 76:7;

 

The greater priesthood holds the key of the mysteries:D&C 84:19;

The Melchizedek Priesthood is to have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom:D&C 107:19;

It is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven:Matt. 13:11;

[Calm]

I do not see this as a paradox.  To paraphrase Calmoriah from a few posts back, to be fully divine is to be fully human. (I hope I got that right Cal)

It was reversed (or at least meant to be…I could have written it that way without thinking), but the same thing….

Edited January 1, 2015 by calmoriah

[Vance]

And indeed he did. He stated what he did in the context of humanity. 

It is interesting that you would say that.

 

So when Jesus said "I and my Father are one" we need to understand that "he stated what he did in the context of humanity".

 

AND when we do so, we get something totally different from what you claim he meant.

 

This is just more inconsistency on your part.

[Vance]

Jesus was God before he was incarnate. He humbled himself, and clothed himself with humanity.

Jesus didn't "cloth himself with humanity", He was always human.

 

His oneness with the Father was already intact before he was human.

There was NO "before he was human".   Jesus ALWAYS was human (like his brethren).

 

The context of our humanity is limiting.

No, it isn't.  His humanity didn't limit him, our humanity doesn't limit us either.

[Vance]

 

What is the exact process that allows a human like me and you to become a God?

 

Obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel is the process that allows a person to become a God.

 

How exactly did Christ pay for all of the sins of humanity? (the foundational and wonderful mystery of Christianity!)

By suffering both body and spirit in the garden and unto death on the cross.

[Vance]

They aren't mutually exclusive in Christ.

Nor in anyone else.

 

However, the bible never teaches that man becomes infinite as God nature is.

No need to "become" something you already are.

[danielwoods]

It is interesting that you would say that.

 

So when Jesus said "I and my Father are one" we need to understand that "he stated what he did in the context of humanity".

 

AND when we do so, we get something totally different from what you claim he meant.

 

This is just more inconsistency on your part.

 

Inconsistent would be to claim that when Jesus said he was one with the Father, that it means one in purpose. If it meant that, they wouldn't have reacted the way they did. 

 

Jesus didn't "cloth himself with humanity", He was always human.

 

 

 

There was NO "before he was human".   Jesus ALWAYS was human (like his brethren).

 

 

 

No, it isn't.  His humanity didn't limit him, our humanity doesn't limit us either.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

As you know the "Word" is a reference to Jesus, who was God and was with God and then He was "made" flesh and dwelt among us. He didn't have flesh before, hence not human.

Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men"

Jesus took upon himself humanity and was made in the likeness of men. He wasn't made in our likeness before he did this.

[danielwoods]

Nor in anyone else.

 

 

 

No need to "become" something you already are.

 

CFR that man is infinite as Gods nature is.

[Flyonthewall]

Inconsistent would be to claim that when Jesus said he was one with the Father, that it means one in purpose. If it meant that, they wouldn't have reacted the way they did. 

 

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

As you know the "Word" is a reference to Jesus, who was God and was with God and then He was "made" flesh and dwelt among us. He didn't have flesh before, hence not human.

Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men"

Jesus took upon himself humanity and was made in the likeness of men. He wasn't made in our likeness before he did this.

This is easy enough... We were with God before the beginning as spirits, and did not have flesh either. We were each born on earth and "became flesh". Does not define or change humanity.

Jesus was indeed made in the likeness of men, but before that, Man was made in the image of God. Nothing hidden here.

[danielwoods]

This is easy enough... We were with God before the beginning as spirits, and did not have flesh either. We were each born on earth and "became flesh". Does not define or change humanity.

Jesus was indeed made in the likeness of men, but before that, Man was made in the image of God. Nothing hidden here.

 

The idea that we lived previously is contrary to the teaching of the NT, where Jesus said we are from below, and he is from above.  "²³ And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above:"  (John 8 )

Edited January 2, 2015 by danielwoods