Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[danielwoods]

So, the bible teaches that God and Jesus are Siamese twins? Is that your argument?

 

Siamese twins are 2 but share one body. It is simply my feeble attempt at an analogy. How can two be one? They are physically connected. 

 

Yeah? And you failed quite badly. Explain what essence means?

 

I am not sure how what you said helps with explaining the Trinity. Again, this is like saying green is green because of its infinite nature. It really doesn't explain anything.

 

Essence is the quality or qualities of a thing that give it its identity. The indispensable properties or attributes. 

[danielwoods]

You have denied that you believe polytheism yet you describe your concept of God as being three people. That is polytheism.  Tell me what I have missed.

 

I never said three "people". I said three persons. The difference is God is not human, nor a glorified human, nor a human "person". Rather, one of his attributes, one we don't share, is infinite oneness. 

 

You are forcing your limited understanding or definition of "persons" onto an infinite being.

[coolrok7]

Vance, from your post #2107 in response to intra:

 

 

. . .No we don't trust men. Neither do we trust men known as the "Reformers" who laid the foundations for the fabrication of your current theology and yet you trust them.

 

 

I beg to differ. Joseph Smith being a man (in which you/others here seem to trust) in part responsible for what Mormons are taught to believe (or face excommunication after having once believed and then rejected).

 

To which I responded in part:

 

 

Fabrication implies made up. . . .

 

 

I'm here (initially by invitation) not to tell you/others what you/they believe but respond to what the Mormon Church teaches about others/instructing its own members what to believe while sending its missionaries for the proselytizing of others, not of  the Mormon fold.

 

In your post # 2120 you further elaborated:

 

 

Martin Luther fabricated the priesthood of all believers myth

 

The councils fabricated the doctrine of the trinity.

 

The five solas are fabrications.

 

They are in your and his theology. They are the fabrications of which I spoke.

 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Siamese twins are 2 but share one body. It is simply my feeble attempt at an analogy. How can two be one? They are physically connected. 

 

 

Essence is the quality or qualities of a thing that give it its identity. The indispensable properties or attributes. 

Right, so we are all humans, that is the essance we share. So we are not 6 billion persons but one because we share the essance of human.

 

Same thing with God right?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I never said three "people". I said three persons. The difference is God is not human, nor a glorified human, nor a human "person". Rather, one of his attributes, one we don't share, is infinite oneness. 

 

You are forcing your limited understanding or definition of "persons" onto an infinite being.

Green is green because of it's infinite oneness.

 

This literially descibes nothing. 

 

I really do appreciate what you are trying to do it just doesn't work.

 

You should just stick to the "its a mystery" line. It is the only thing that will work for your theology.

[coolrok7]

Teancum (post # 2117), what I or others believe, in order to be correct, one has to have a standard to measure against.

 

As a Christian (of the Lutheran, Missouri Synod tribe), my faith (trust and understanding) comes from the sixty canonical books of the Bible (which Mormonism accepts in addition to the other works of Joseph Smith and those who succeded him, which I don't accept as coming from God) from which I will give a defense.

 

I will try to elaborate on what I had stated in an earlier post concerning what I believe as not being fabricated.

 

I'll begin with this quote from the book of Revelation (translated into English from Greek documents, this the KJV):

 

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his servant John: who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and all the things he saw. . . .I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, what thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto to Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, an unto Laodicea. (Revelation 1:1-2; 9-11)

 

Back in 2010, I went with a church group to Athens, Turkey, and Germany (my wife and I as the rest of the group went on home) in which I got to visit the Biblical places of my faith. It was an exciting trip.

 

The previous year I got to go to the Mormon pageant at Palmyra. It confirmed my doubts about Mormonism not being true.

[Tacenda]

Teancum (post # 2117), what I or others believe, in order to be correct, one has to have a standard to measure against.

 

As a Christian (of the Lutheran, Missouri Synod tribe), my faith (trust and understanding) comes from the sixty canonical books of the Bible (which Mormonism accepts in addition to the other works of Joseph Smith and those who succeded him, which I don't accept as coming from God) from which I will give a defense.

 

I will try to elaborate on what I had stated in an earlier post concerning what I believe as not being fabricated.

 

I'll begin with this quote from the book of Revelation (translated into English from Greek documents, this the KJV):

 

 

Back in 2010, I went with a church group to Athens, Turkey, and Germany (my wife and I as the rest of the group went on home) in which I got to visit the Biblical places of my faith. It was an exciting trip.

 

The previous year I got to go to the Mormon pageant at Palmyra. It confirmed my doubts about Mormonism not being true.

(bold mine)

 

Why is that Coolrok?  I relate a little, I went to the pageant in Nauvoo in search of a renewed testimony, it didn't happen, it only opened up more questioning, dang.  It was more that they didn't present history as accurately as I thought they should.  Just that they didn't mention any of JS's wives.  If I hadn't known better Emma was the only wife.  But they did do a reenactment of the King Follett Sermon by JS that surprised me! 

[coolrok7]

I went as an opportunity presented a free plane ticket to go. It became really obvious to me when we visited the place where the church was organized at the little farmhouse of Peter Whitmer.

 

The was an overwhelming oppressive spiritual presence I (and others with me) became aware of while in the Fayette chapel located near the farmhouse. We were standing in the room where the busts of Joseph Smith and others were on display.

Edited December 30, 2014 by coolrok7

[pogi]

The previous year I got to go to the Mormon pageant at Palmyra. It confirmed my doubts about Mormonism not being true.

 

You put way more weight in that pageant than it deserves!  

[coolrok7]

No, it was a chance to visit the birthplace of Mormonism and to examine it in its surroundings

[pogi]

No, it was a chance to visit the birthplace of Mormonism and to examine it in its surroundings

 

That's like saying that going to Jerusalem can affirm either the faith or doubt in the divinity of Christ.  You also place way too much weight in the surroundings.  They are just trees and buildings.  What knowledge did you gain that is not accessible online?

Edited December 30, 2014 by pogi

[ERayR]

I never said three "people". I said three persons. The difference is God is not human, nor a glorified human, nor a human "person". Rather, one of his attributes, one we don't share, is infinite oneness. 

 

You are forcing your limited understanding or definition of "persons" onto an infinite being.

 

If they are not three people are they then one people?

[coolrok7]

The Mormon Church goes to great lengths to promote these places and restore these buildings to tell their story.

 

The beginning of Christianity started in Jerusalem and spread throughout the world. Its scripture has a spiritual sense to it that can be discerned by those moved by the Biblical Holy Spirit. As distinguished between the spirit of Mormonism and Christianity.

 

One doesn't have to visit the actual sites but it is helpful to get a visual of the surroundings one reads about.

Edited December 30, 2014 by coolrok7

[ERayR]

 

Back in 2010, I went with a church group to Athens, Turkey, and Germany (my wife and I as the rest of the group went on home) in which I got to visit the Biblical places of my faith. It was an exciting trip.

 

The previous year I got to go to the Mormon pageant at Palmyra. It confirmed my doubts about Mormonism not being true.

 

 

(bold mine)

 

Why is that Coolrok?  I relate a little, I went to the pageant in Nauvoo in search of a renewed testimony, it didn't happen, it only opened up more questioning, dang.  It was more that they didn't present history as accurately as I thought they should.  Just that they didn't mention any of JS's wives.  If I hadn't known better Emma was the only wife.  But they did do a reenactment of the King Follett Sermon by JS that surprised me! 

 

You both got what you went prepared to receive.  coolrok 7 in the first instance you went with expectations of having your faith confirmed.  In the second your expectations were that you were going to find disappointment  and falsehood so that is what you found. 

 

Tacenda your expectations were that you were going to find disappointment  and falsehood so that is what you found.

 

One of the most difficult tasks one can take on is impartiality.  For mortals I am not sure it is possible but if one really works at it you can approach fairness.

[ERayR]

No, it was a chance to visit the birthplace of Mormonism and to examine it in its surroundings

 

You were about 200 years to late for that.

[Vance]

It's clear what the Greek says.

Yes, it is.

 

Not so clear what you are arguing.

Simply that the Greek means what it says.  Not what Creedal Christians, such as yourself, claim it says.

 

By the way, I agree with you that Jesus is divine.

Thus making Him a god, after all that is what being divine means.

 

The Father is greater in his role as Father, not greater in essence.

"essence" means nothing in this discussion.  It is not found in the scriptures and its usage is simply worthless.

[Vance]

I don't trust what Joseph Smith taught.

Yet you trust some post biblical council that uses words not found in the English Bible to describe in English what God is.

 

Strange that.

 

I trust what the Biblical text teaches.

And yet you don't use Biblical words to explain what the Bible supposedly is saying.

 

I also have a feeling that God is not so easily defined.

Well, when men are doing it without revelation, like the post-bliblical councils of uninspired men did it, you just slop it up without question.

 

Strange that.

 

[coolrok7]

Is not the church still there in its surroundings, It owns the property doesn't it, ErayR?

[coolrok7]

Also, I had already received Christianity as being true I went to visit to see the surroundings of where it had spread to in the world at the time.

[Vance]

Indeed, the concept is derived from the Bible. Just as we were talking about John 1:1, it's one of the main reasons the JW's change the verse, it demonstrates that Jesus is equal to God the father. 

Not it is not derived from the Bible, and many non-LDS scholars agree.  It is a post-biblical invention that is retroactively injected into the man-made interpretation of the Bible.  John 1:1 being a perfect example.  The JW's got the translation correct, which is OBVIOUS, but getting the translation correct doesn't mean that they understand it correctly.  It doesn't demonstrate that Christ was equal to the Father.  It demonstrates that Jesus was Divine, or a god, not that He was equal to the Father.  Jesus definitively and clearly declared that the Father was greater. 

 

Why don't you believe Jesus when He says it?  If you won't believe Him, there is nothing we can show you that will convince you.

[ERayR]

Is not the church still there in its surroundings, It owns the property doesn't it, ErayR?

 

The  Church is not its things.  The Church is in the authority and power of God manifest in it.  You put too much value on relics.

[ERayR]

I never said three "people". I said three persons. The difference is God is not human, nor a glorified human, nor a human "person". Rather, one of his attributes, one we don't share, is infinite oneness. 

 

You are forcing your limited understanding or definition of "persons" onto an infinite being.

 

So this doesn't get lost as I am waiting for an answer.

 

If they are not three people are they then one people?

[Vance]

but the nature of that infinite being is also understood to be three persons in one being, 

Nowhere, and I do mean NOWHERE in the Bible does it describe God in those terms.

 

That definition does NOT come from the Bible, but MUST BE injected into it from an external MAN MADE interpretation.

 

You can deny this OBVIOUS fact all you want.  You can continue with your contorted non-Biblical rambling explanations all you want.

 

BUT, it won't change that obvious fact.

[Vance]

I never said three "people". I said three persons. The difference is God is not human, nor a glorified human, nor a human "person". Rather, one of his attributes, one we don't share, is infinite oneness. 

Well, Jesus was human, so by your explanation, you are denying the divinity of Christ.

 

You are forcing your limited understanding or definition of "persons" onto an infinite being.

And you are using special definitions of words kluged together resulting in a bunch of meaningless drivel.

 

A person, is a being, is an individual.  There is no such thing as three separate persons but one being.  Three separate persons ARE three separate beings.

[Vance]

The beginning of Christianity started in Jerusalem and spread throughout the world. Its scripture has a spiritual sense to it that can be discerned by those moved by the Biblical Holy Spirit.

Sounds like Bibliolatry to me.