Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[ERayR]

 

The idea that we lived previously is contrary to the teaching of the NT, where Jesus said we are from below, and he is from above.  "²³ And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above:"  (John 8 )

 

I do not follow your logic that, that scripture negates a pre-morrtal existence.  Please explain.

[Flyonthewall]

The idea that we lived previously is contrary to the teaching of the NT, where Jesus said we are from below, and he is from above.  "²³ And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above:"  (John 8 )

If only that actually addressed our pre-mortal existence. It does not.

We see in Ecclesiastes The spirit shall return unto God who gave it:Eccl. 12:7;

Explain how our spirit shall return to God if we were never with God to begin with.

We are all his offspring: Acts 17:28;

We are to be in subjection to the Father of spirits: Heb. 12:9;

etc.

Well, there are plenty of scriptures that refer to our pre-mortal existence - you have been shown them, and simply dismiss them because they do not agree with your interpretation.

Bottom line, us having lived previously with God is not contrary to biblical scripture, but is in harmony with it. Fortunately we have revelation that spells it out more clearly.

[danielwoods]

I do not follow your logic that, that scripture negates a pre-morrtal existence.  Please explain.

Jesus is saying you are from the Earth, that is your origins. God created Adam, that was his beginning. Then he states that he is from above, Heaven, that is where he came from.

[danielwoods]

If only that actually addressed our pre-mortal existence. It does not.

We see in Ecclesiastes The spirit shall return unto God who gave it:Eccl. 12:7;

Explain how our spirit shall return to God if we were never with God to begin with.

At some point in our formation in the womb, God gives us our spirit. Before that we don't exist at all. At our death, we return to God, who gave us life. There is no statement or teaching where we pre-existed.

 

We are all his offspring: Acts 17:28;

We are to be in subjection to the Father of spirits: Heb. 12:9;

etc.

Neither of which indicate that we pre-existed.

 

Well, there are plenty of scriptures that refer to our pre-mortal existence - you have been shown them, and simply dismiss them because they do not agree with your interpretation.

Bottom line, us having lived previously with God is not contrary to biblical scripture, but is in harmony with it. Fortunately we have revelation that spells it out more clearly.

Actually there are none that spell out our pre-mortal existence, if there were, it would be great to quote them and believe them. 

 

You are right, we've discussed this before, and you claim I'm simply dismissing them. I'm sure it's frustrating trying to read things into the text that isn't there. 

[Teancum]

I posted this in another thread on Mormons and Christians bit thought I would post it here as well.

 

I suggest the EVs here educate themselves a bit about their Bible.  The article I link to below is not a scholarly piece but it is a fairly good layman's summary of Bible issues.   It is simply a fact that early Israel was polytheistic, or perhaps better said Henotheistic.   It really was the later penned fifth book of Moses, Deuteronomy and then later Isaiah, which moved the Israel to a more monotheistic scope.

As far as Jesus being God and Trinitarian theology I suggest for Starters Bart Ehrman's book How Jesus Became God.  Sorry EVers.... the oneness of Jesus with God and/or being God is just not in the Bible and the earliest Christians would never recognize your non biblical creeds.

 

Here is the link:

 

http://www.newsweek....ays-294018.html

 

It is simply nonsense to call Mormons non Christian especially when one studies the Bible, its compilation, early Christianity and even the development of the theology of the OT.  Yes Mormons are not what is now Orthodox Christianity but the LDS Church is well placed the Christian camp.

 

And I don't have skin in the game really as I am critical of all religion to some extent at this point in my life. I am just asking that the players be honest and I don't see a lot of that in the attacks.

[ERayR]

Jesus is saying you are from the Earth, that is your origins. God created Adam, that was his beginning. Then he states that he is from above, Heaven, that is where he came from.

I do not understand it quite like that.  He is saying we are focused on earthly things, he is focused on spiritual things.

[pogi]

There is no statement or teaching where we pre-existed. 

• When God laid the foundations of the earth, all the sons of God shouted for joy:Job 38:4–7;
• The spirit shall return unto God who gave it:Eccl. 12:7;
• Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee:Jer. 1:4–5;
• We are all his offspring:Acts 17:28;
• God chose us before the foundation of the world:Eph. 1:3–4;
• We are to be in subjection to the Father of spirits:Heb. 12:9;
• The angels which kept not their first estate, he hath reserved in everlasting chains:Jude 1:6; ( Abr. 3:26; )

I have no doubt that you will come up with an alternative interpretation, but don't pretend that there is not bountiful evidence in the bible of a pre-mortal existence or first estate.

Edited January 2, 2015 by pogi

[danielwoods]

I posted this in another thread on Mormons and Christians bit thought I would post it here as well.

 

I suggest the EVs here educate themselves a bit about their Bible.  The article I link to below is not a scholarly piece but it is a fairly good layman's summary of Bible issues.   It is simply a fact that early Israel was polytheistic, or perhaps better said Henotheistic.   It really was the later penned fifth book of Moses, Deuteronomy and then later Isaiah, which moved the Israel to a more monotheistic scope.

As far as Jesus being God and Trinitarian theology I suggest for Starters Bart Ehrman's book How Jesus Became God.  Sorry EVers.... the oneness of Jesus with God and/or being God is just not in the Bible and the earliest Christians would never recognize your non biblical creeds.

 

Here is the link:

 

http://www.newsweek....ays-294018.html

 

It is simply nonsense to call Mormons non Christian especially when one studies the Bible, its compilation, early Christianity and even the development of the theology of the OT.  Yes Mormons are not what is now Orthodox Christianity but the LDS Church is well placed the Christian camp.

 

And I don't have skin in the game really as I am critical of all religion to some extent at this point in my life. I am just asking that the players be honest and I don't see a lot of that in the attacks.

 

Bart isn't a reliable source. I'm not sure I have time to refute every point of his (actually I'm certain I don't). But, we could take one point that you think he makes that is really strong and analyze it. 

[danielwoods]

I do not understand it quite like that.  He is saying we are focused on earthly things, he is focused on spiritual things.

 

Why would you say "focused" when he states "from"?

[ERayR]

Why would you say "focused" when he states "from"?

 

Does this phrase sound familiar: My focus is from this point of view.

[danielwoods]

• When God laid the foundations of the earth, all the sons of God shouted for joy:Job 38:4–7;

 

A reference to Angles, not pre-existent humans.

 

 

• The spirit shall return unto God who gave it:Eccl. 12:7;

 

 

God created our spirit in the womb, we return to our creator, this is true.

 

 

• Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee:Jer. 1:4–5;

 

 

A statement of God's for knowledge. He knows all past, present and future, now.

 

 

• We are all his offspring:Acts 17:28;

 

 

He formed us in the womb, yes.

 

 

• God chose us before the foundation of the world:Eph. 1:3–4;

 

 

God's foreknowledge doesn't indicate our existence. Rather, he knew all before it happened.

 

 

• We are to be in subjection to the Father of spirits:Heb. 12:9;

 

 

We are also called spirit, because he gave us life in the womb.

 

 

• The angels which kept not their first estate, he hath reserved in everlasting chains:Jude 1:6; ( Abr. 3:26; 

 

 

An interesting reference to Angles visiting the earth, no mention of our preexistence though.

 

I have no doubt that you will come up with an alternative interpretation, but don't pretend that there is not bountiful evidence in the bible of a pre-mortal existence or first estate.

 

None of these are actual statements or teaching of our preexistence.

[danielwoods]

Does this phrase sound familiar: My focus is from this point of view.

 

Read it how you will. "²³ And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above:"  (John 8 )

[pogi]

The idea that we lived previously is contrary to the teaching of the NT, where Jesus said we are from below, and he is from above.  "²³ And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above:"  (John 8 )

 

 

You skipped the part where He says "ye are of this earth, I am not of this earth."  That is our flesh, not our spirits.  That passage is clearly talking about our physical natures (fleshly lusts) and not our spiritual beginnings.  God is the father of our spirits - is God from below or above?  I interpret this passage to be speaking of the natural man, and the desires of the flesh (mortality).

Edited January 2, 2015 by pogi

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 the bible never teaches that man becomes infinite as God nature is.

THe bible never teaches against man not being infinite. Is there a time we will ever cease to exist?

 

You seem to be under the impression that what makes God God, is that he is an eternal being. Is that correct?

[danielwoods]

You skipped the part where He says "ye are of this earth, I am not of this earth."  That is our flesh, not our spirits.  That passage is clearly talking about our physical natures (fleshly lusts) and not our spiritual beginnings.  God is the father of our spirits - is God from below or above?  I interpret this passage to be speaking of the natural man, and the desires of the flesh (mortality).

 

And yet Jesus didn't say that. He says "You are of this earth…" He didn't say "your flesh" is of this earth, or some other explanation, rather he's talking about "you" all of you. Flesh/Spirit/Soul… . The concept that our spirits pre-existed our flesh is completely missing from the Bible. Passages like this refute the idea that we pre-existed. 

[ERayR]

 

A reference to Angles, not pre-existent humans.

 

 

God created our spirit in the womb, we return to our creator, this is true.

 

 

A statement of God's for knowledge. He knows all past, present and future, now.

 

 

He formed us in the womb, yes.

 

 

God's foreknowledge doesn't indicate our existence. Rather, he knew all before it happened.

 

 

We are also called spirit, because he gave us life in the womb.

 

 

An interesting reference to Angles visiting the earth, no mention of our preexistence though.

 

 

None of these are actual statements or teaching of our preexistence.

 

Read it how you will. "²³ And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above:"  (John 8 )

 

Why won't you read what is written instead of adding layers of complexity which are not there?  There are none so blind as those who will not see.

[danielwoods]

THe bible never teaches against man not being infinite. Is there a time we will ever cease to exist?

 

You seem to be under the impression that what makes God God, is that he is an eternal being. Is that correct?

 

Man doesn't have the attributes or nature of God. David said, "where ever I go, you are there." That statement isn't said of us, only of God. We had a beginning, and will live on forever, God had no beginning, and created all. Completely different nature. God has all awareness/power/authority etc… we do not. 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

A reference to Angles, not pre-existent humans.

 

 

God created our spirit in the womb, we return to our creator, this is true.

 

 

A statement of God's for knowledge. He knows all past, present and future, now.

 

 

He formed us in the womb, yes.

 

 

God's foreknowledge doesn't indicate our existence. Rather, he knew all before it happened.

 

 

We are also called spirit, because he gave us life in the womb.

 

 

An interesting reference to Angles visiting the earth, no mention of our preexistence though.

 

 

None of these are actual statements or teaching of our preexistence.

I guess if we ignore what those verse actually say then we can walk away believing what you believe.

 

How can we return to God if we never lived there first. You cannot even answer this. I have asked it before and you always, always deflected that answer. 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Man doesn't have the attributes or nature of God. David said, "where ever I go, you are there." That statement isn't said of us, only of God. We had a beginning, and will live on forever, God had no beginning, and created all. Completely different nature. God has all awareness/power/authority etc… we do not. 

All completely irrlevant. Will we ever cease to exist? Yes or no?

[bluebell]

Man doesn't have the attributes or nature of God. David said, "where ever I go, you are there." That statement isn't said of us, only of God. We had a beginning, and will live on forever, God had no beginning, and created all. Completely different nature. God has all awareness/power/authority etc… we do not. 

 

Are you under the impression that LDS believe that we have all of God's attributes right now?  Because we don't believe that.

[danielwoods]

Why won't you read what is written instead of adding layers of complexity which are not there?  There are none so blind as those who will not see.

 

It would be great if Jesus actually taught that we pre-existed, but he didn't, so I guess I'm the one who is blind? 

 

Why not just agree that it's not there, and state with pride that we thank God for further revelation? 

[pogi]

 

None of these are actual statements or teaching of our preexistence.

 

This is all so silly.  If you want to go on believing that you have authority to speak for the authors, go ahead, but please acknowledge that there are some 50,000 Christian denominations, not to mention non-denominational Christians who will disagree with you on much of what you say.

[danielwoods]

I guess if we ignore what those verse actually say then we can walk away believing what you believe.

 

How can we return to God if we never lived there first. You cannot even answer this. I have asked it before and you always, always deflected that answer.

Notice I said:

danielwoods, on 02 Jan 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

God created our spirit in the womb, we return to our creator, this is true.

 

 

All completely irrlevant. Will we ever cease to exist? Yes or no?

Notice I said:

danielwoods, on 02 Jan 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

We had a beginning, and will live on forever

[ERayR]

Why not just agree that it's not there, and state with pride that we thank God for further revelation? 

 

The first part I can not agree with because it is not true.  As for the second part. yes, thank God for further revelation!!

[danielwoods]

Are you under the impression that LDS believe that we have all of God's attributes right now?  Because we don't believe that.

 

No. I understand that the LDS believe in progression.