Ny Times Article: Kate Kelly And John Dehlin Threatened With Excommunication

[mormonnewb]

Everyone should read "Spencer W. Kimball and the Revelation on Priesthood 2005" by his son Edward L. Kimball

https://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFViewer.aspx?title=7885&linkURL=47.2KimballSpencerb0a083df-b26b-430b-9ce2-3efec584dcd9.pdf

I especially like the following statement from the document:

"He(Spencer W. Kimball) reacted especially negatively to militant protests against the Church and coercive methods, particularly when those protesting had themselves no interest in becoming priesthood holders. Spencer believed that external pressures made revelation even less likely to come."

So The Lord is control of the timing of revelation in His Church UNLESS some trouble makers come along and gum up the works?

I'm not sure we can have it both ways. Either the Brethren act according to the will of God or they can be influenced by outside forces (for better or worse). Take your pick.

[Mystery Meat]

So The Lord is control of the timing of revelation in His Church UNLESS some trouble makers come along and gum up the works?

I'm not sure we can have it both ways. Either the Brethren act according to the will of God or they can be influenced by outside forces (for better or worse). Take your pick.

 

I think he did. He is saying it is not influenced by outside forces.

[smac97]

Everyone should read "Spencer W. Kimball and the Revelation on Priesthood 2005" by his son Edward L. Kimball

 

https://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFViewer.aspx?title=7885&linkURL=47.2KimballSpencerb0a083df-b26b-430b-9ce2-3efec584dcd9.pdf

 

I especially like the following statement from the document:

"He(Spencer W. Kimball) reacted especially negatively to militant protests against the Church and coercive methods, particularly when those protesting had themselves no interest in becoming priesthood holders. Spencer believed that external pressures made revelation even less likely to come."

Note also the footnote (82) to this excerpt: "But compare the 1890 Woodruff Manifesto that gives as its reason the government’s imminent threat to confiscate the Church’s property, including the temples." I think the Lord gives revelations which take into account the circumstances in which His Church finds itself. For example, the Lord warned Lehi to leave Jerusalem due to the geopolitical circumstances of the day. The Lord warned Joseph in a dream to take Mary and Jesus and flee to Egypt, again due to the geopolitical circumstances facing them.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Sleeper Cell]

I don't think we're comparing the propriety of the Church's policies in these cases, but rather the appropriate course of action for saints who believe the Church's policy is in error.

They can post on MDDB.

[BlueDreams]

 

May I ask where this information came from? I haven't seen anything online.  And IIRC, Kate Kelly told the Salt Lake Tribune on Thursday that she would never resign. EDIT TO ADD: The Salt Lake Tribune is reporting that "Ordain Women founder Kate Kelly, said Saturday her disciplinary council remains scheduled for June 22."

 

This is a couple pages back, so this may have been covered already. But Juliann was probably not talking about resigning the church. She was talking about resigning OW as possible compliance of sorts (at least in part). That can be found in her and Dehlin's interview with SLTrib....it's nearer the end if I remember correctly. She states that she plans to resign from leadership of OW, though the organization/website will continue. 

 

 

Hopes that helps.....back to catching up.

[smac97]

This is a couple pages back, so this may have been covered already. But Juliann was probably not talking about resigning the church. She was talking about resigning OW as possible compliance of sorts (at least in part). That can be found in her and Dehlin's interview with SLTrib....it's nearer the end if I remember correctly. She states that she plans to resign from leadership of OW, though the organization/website will continue. 

 

 

Hopes that helps.....back to catching up.

Hmm. I thought she had said just the opposite (that she intends to continue working with the OW group). However, resigning from the OW group makes more sense.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited June 15, 2014 by smac97

[Tacenda]

From the OW website:

And they can't raise enough money to buy her a round trip plane ticket?

Or perhaps it does not suit their agenda?

Heck, I'll make the offer now, I'll help pay for her plane ticket.Anyone else willing to assist?

Money's not an issue, apparently she is helping someone.

[JLHPROF]

I don't think we're comparing the propriety of the Church's policies in these cases, but rather the appropriate course of action for saints who believe the Church's policy is in error.

Denying SSM is not a policy. It is not an institutional regulation to be overturned. It is upholding the eternal design and order of family. All the progressive thought in the world can't alter something eternal.

Being on the wrong side of history is a pointless concern when speaking of eternal things.

Edited June 15, 2014 by JLHPROF

[Duncan]

I hope that was a good trade off for the MILLIONS of African Americans who will never even consider joining our Church.

 

or have heard of our Church, maybe in the next life! same thing go for people who don't like Americans and won't listen to anything coming from two young Americans

[Calm]

It is worth noting that there were more than a few amazingly humble men of African descent who waited for the Lord to reveal without instigating vigils, protests, marches, and other political pressure campaigns. They trusted the Lord. They were not disappointed.

And those who did do public protests, Byron Marchant and Doug Wallace, claim to have been nonbelievers in the Church at the time of their protests, Marchant saying he had several years previously told one GA he was a fraud and Wallacevsaying he did not ordain the nonmember to the Aaronic Priesthood, but another priesthood he considered unconnected with the LDS faith (see mormonheritic blog where both post, I think I've provided a link already somewhere).

They were, iow, trying to prove the Church wrong, not attempting to make it better.

[Calm]

church facilities to proselyte  for their cause.]

If by chance you mean buildings as opposed to Internet, I don't remember seeing evidence of this.

[Calm]

or have heard of our Church

This is a great mystery to me....why it appears God is not that concerned with all of his children hearing his Word in mortality while there appears to be great concern about those who do properly treating it, but more for their own sake then the damage they do others since he does not prevent the damage from happening. It will definitely be one of the questions I have to ask him.

[Duncan]

This is a great mystery to me....why it appears God is not that concerned with all of his children hearing his Word in mortality while there appears to be great concern about those who do properly treating it, but more for their own sake then the damage they do others since he does not prevent the damage from happening. It will definitely be one of the questions I have to ask him.

 

I've wondered that myself, why so few have a chance to hear it. If we leave this life with the 'same spirit' what about people who hear critical info about the church, God in genral, etc will they have those same beliefs in the life to come? don't know!

[BlueDreams]

Hmm. I thought she had said just the opposite (that she intends to continue working with the OW group). However, resigning from the OW group makes more sense.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

The direct quote is something along the lines "I know that we will continue to work... I know that I'm going to resign from the leadership of the organisation." It's around min 29. So a little bit of both.

 

With luv,

BD

[Avatar4321]

I hope that was a good trade off for the MILLIONS of African Americans who will never even consider joining our Church.

 

They are invited to repent and come to Christ as well. and I think many more will than you currently give them credit.

 

You could be essential in sharing the Gospel with them.

[Storm Rider]

I've wondered that myself, why so few have a chance to hear it. If we leave this life with the 'same spirit' what about people who hear critical info about the church, God in genral, etc will they have those same beliefs in the life to come? don't know!

 

"Same spirit" in this context is better understood as heart rather than mind. One can learn many things, but it is our hearts that lead us to good choices. 

[smac97]

The direct quote is something along the lines "I know that we will continue to work... I know that I'm going to resign from the leadership of the organisation." It's around min 29. So a little bit of both.

 

With luv,

BD

Actually, I think there is a glitch in the recording, as it drops a "not" at about 29:43. She says (speaking of her pending disciplinary council): "What this means for Ordain Women, I'm not quite sure yet. I that we're going to continue. I know that I am (GARBLED) going to resign from the leadership of the organization, and that everyone in the organization supports me. I think it's important to note that not one single person has removed their profile from the site, and I think for me personally that's very touching."

 

I listened to this live, and I recall her saying that she is "not going to resign."

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[ksfisher]

The direct quote is something along the lines "I know that we will continue to work... I know that I'm going to resign from the leadership of the organisation." It's around min 29. So a little bit of both.

 

With luv,

BD

Will she be resigning in order to comply with what her bishop has asked her to do or because she's moving to Kenya?

[why me]

I'll be happy to join my brothers and sisters who were shouting about lifting the priesthood ban for blacks in the 60s and 70s.

They were not shouting at all. They were wishing and praying. See the difference? I was a member in the 70s. I heard no one shout or even organize a petition campaign. But many were praying that the ban was lifted. Sometimes mormonnewb I think that you just want to push buttons by using loaded words.

[why me]

The direct quote is something along the lines "I know that we will continue to work... I know that I'm going to resign from the leadership of the organisation." It's around min 29. So a little bit of both.

 

With luv,

BD

This may make sense from a tactical point of view. One can resign but still have influence. Kelly has become a polarizing personality. By issuing a change in leadership and a more moderate stance by the organization to get their point across and then as more people join, begin a more militant campaign would be a good strategy.

[why me]

I don't think we're comparing the propriety of the Church's policies in these cases, but rather the appropriate course of action for saints who believe the Church's policy is in error.

Well, let me put it this way. If a million members disagree with church policy about this or that...lets say for example, the word of wisdom, chasity, temple weddings, women and the priesthood, the ordaining of boys etc. what would happen in a church that claims divine revelation?

 

The early church at the time of paul was warned quite often about not thinking of one mind. And there were divisions. When does contention promote harmony?

Edited June 15, 2014 by why me

[Storm Rider]

They were not shouting at all. They were wishing and praying. See the difference? I was a member in the 70s. I heard no one shout or even organize a petition campaign. But many were praying that the ban was lifted. Sometimes mormonnewb I think that you just want to push buttons by using loaded words.

 

I know, I know, I know.  When there is only me, myself, and I involved....well, not always that one guy is a jerk and can be obstinate at times.

[mormonnewb]

Well, let me put it this way. If a million members disagree with church policy about this or that...lets say for example, the word of wisdom, chasity, temple weddings, women and the priesthood, the ordaining of boys etc. what would happen in a church that claims divine revelation?

 

The early church at the time of paul was warned quite often about not thinking of one mind. And there were divisions. When does contention promote harmony?

 

When does contention promote harmony?  About as often as agency promotes harmony.

 

Before the beginning, there was a plan of the table that would have guaranteed perfect harmony amongst the saints.  We would have ALL walked lockstep together in righteousness.  And for some strange reason, we all chose messy agency, virtually guaranteeing that we would never have harmony -- inside or outside of the Church.

 

Are you now having second thoughts about your vote?

[Storm Rider]

When does contention promote harmony?  About as often as agency promotes harmony.

 

Before the beginning, there was a plan of the table that would have guaranteed perfect harmony amongst the saints.  We would have ALL walked lockstep together in righteousness.  And for some strange reason, we all chose messy agency, virtually guaranteeing that we would never have harmony -- inside or outside of the Church.

 

Are you now having second thoughts about your vote?

 

Agency provides the ability to choose for good or ill.  Contention is a choice for ill. There is a quantifiable difference between the two concepts.  There are proper choices to be made in life.  I don't do a good job, I realize that, but I desire to be a source of peace in the world.  

 

Having free agency does not necessarily lead to contention; it allows the possibility for contention. We can choose, even in disagreement, to have peace.  I can submit my will to Christ and follow him. If I join with another with an equal desire to submit to Christ and to love one another then we negate a lot of potential for contention.  We will still be human, but disciples of Christ, true disciples, are quick to repent. 

 

When is and where is a desire to repent present during contention?  So when we are to be of one mind does that mean I lose my individuality or does it mean that we are always quick to repent?

[Scott Lloyd]

Actually, I think there is a glitch in the recording, as it drops a "not" at about 29:43. She says (speaking of her pending disciplinary council): "What this means for Ordain Women, I'm not quite sure yet. I that we're going to continue. I know that I am (GARBLED) going to resign from the leadership of the organization, and that everyone in the organization supports me. I think it's important to note that not one single person has removed their profile from the site, and I think for me personally that's very touching."

 

I listened to this live, and I recall her saying that she is "not going to resign."

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

To me, this makes more sense, given the context of the quote: Kelly will not resign, everyone in the organization supports her (in her decision not to resign), no individual has removed her/his profile from the website. The sense I get is that they are going to tough it out together, and that includes Kelly's refusal to resign.

 

On the other hand, it would be quite a startling statement if she in fact said she was resigning from the organization. I see no context for such a startling disclosure in her words either before or after the quote in question.

Edited June 15, 2014 by Scott Lloyd