We Will Go Where We Are The Most Comfortable

[mercyngrace]

Anyone know where this comes from?  Is it a doctrinal statement?

 

Thanks!

MnG

 

Edit: At this point I'm assuming it's a common reading of D&C 88:32. It that the only source?

Edited May 18, 2014 by mercyngrace

[The Nehor]

Brigham Ypung taught that the filthy would be more uncomfortable dwelling in glory then they would be with the damned in hell.

[thesometimesaint]

I don't know where it came from. But it is a logical conclusion from Agency and the our idea's about the next life.

[Duncan]

“I have a feeling that when the Lord comes to giving us our rewards, shall we say, and our punishments, that He will give that punishment which is the very least that our transgression will justify. I believe that He will bring into His justice all of the infinite love, and mercy, and kindness, and understanding which He has…And on the other hand I believe that when it comes to making the rewards for our good conduct, He will give us the maximum that it is possible to give having in mind the offense which we committed. I feel that very, very strongly.” (President J. Reuben Clark, 1955)

 

Some think that it doesn't matter then what we do in life because if we are going to where we are most comfortable so why bother being good, accepting the Gospel etc.

[Calm]

 

Some think that it doesn't matter then what we do in life because if we are going to where we are most comfortable so why bother being good, accepting the Gospel etc.

That assumes we will not be changed at all by the process...which seems unlikely if our eternal selves are anything like our mortal selves. People in mortality are changed by their choices.

[JAHS]

It's not just a matter of where we will feel "comfortable". The way I have understood this is that at the moment we are resurrected we will receive the type of body that can abide the degree of glory to which we are assigned. A body resurrected to a telestial state can not physically or spiritually abide the conditions in the terrestrial or celestial glories, nor can the Terrestrial body abide a Celestial glory condition as explained in D&C 88. Even though where we end up will be the most "comfortable" for us I think there will be an awareness and regret that people will feel when they realize what they could have had. 

[Rivers]

Brigham Ypung taught that the filthy would be more uncomfortable dwelling in glory then they would be with the damned in hell.

That's actually in the Book of Mormon. Mormon 9:4-6.

 

I like D&C 88 because it tells us that the kingdoms of glory are more than places.  They are states of being. 

[Rob Osborn]

It's not just a matter of where we will feel "comfortable". The way I have understood this is that at the moment we are resurrected we will receive the type of body that can abide the degree of glory to which we are assigned. A body resurrected to a telestial state can not physically or spiritually abide the conditions in the terrestrial or celestial glories, nor can the Terrestrial body abide a Celestial glory condition as explained in D&C 88. Even though where we end up will be the most "comfortable" for us I think there will be an awareness and regret that people will feel when they realize what they could have had.

I do not know where exactly we came up with this idea of being resurrected to some glory but then feel some eternal regret for what could have been? I think its more of the same ole traditional assumption about heaven based on various ideas over time that have crept in to place. The only regrets in resurrection spoken of in scripture are those who are resurrected unto the damnation of their souls in hell (outer darkness with devil and angels). I also think that these traditional LDS understandings have led many to believe that this life is the "final test" for eternity and that any mistake will cost us for all of eternity. My own son left the church a few years back for this type of indoctrination and preaching for his choice at that time to perhaps not serve a mission and pursue other things. I often hear also the other similar story of hearing about someone who was thankful they served a mission and was able to convert that one person on the other side of the world and had they not, they would have never been converted and would have felt that guilt for eternity. These are all strange doctrines that force us to have a strange view of life and heaven.

I do believe this life is a test- all things a re a test in that respect in order for us to learn. But honestly- who of us achieves the type of perfection required for celestial exaltation in this short life? We need to understad why we are here. we are here in this life to receive a body and learn how to bridle passions. Beyond that we also learn a little about the nature of the soul in spiritual things. But if this life was the "final test", do you not think God would have made it perfectly clear to us the requirements? We can't even get our own doctrines halfways straightened out amongst ourselves let alone the entire earth and everyone in it. This brings up another important aspect about the nature of Gods kingdom and in whom belongs to it.

In all of Gods parables he speaks about saving us through saving a group- the fold of Christ. Christ will come during the millennium in order to work with Zion on earth to help them all learn the nature of godliness which is helping and loving each other and through this process we pick each other up, support each other and all work towards the same goal. Kind of like a wagon train heading west- we travel as a group, eat, worship and exist as a group, share each others hardships and trials as a group and in the end all arive to the destination, having beared each others burdens at the same time and place. We shall find that our eternal happiness resides not in where we ourselves end up but in actuality our happiness comes from helping others to the point where we ourselves want to be "with them". This includes helping others overcome hardships, trials (addictions, sins, pains) so that they overcome all things (regrets) and have true happiness.

[Calm]

I agree with you Rob that the idea of eternal regret for those experiencing salvation is counter to the fundamental idea of heaven. However it seems to be quite pervasive, perhaps because it is used to push people to go further in the here and now (while useful for immature spirits, I think using fear eventually backfires if continued tobe used once people get to a stage where love and a desire to progress for the sheer delight of growing). An example:

"How conclusive! How bounded! How limiting! And we come to realize again as it bears heavily upon us that this time, this life, this mortality is the time to prepare to meet God. How lonely and barren will be the so-called single blessedness throughout eternity! How sad to be separate and single and apart through countless ages when one could, by meeting requirements, have happy marriage for eternity in the temple by proper authority and continue on in ever-increasing joy and happiness, growth and development toward godhood. …"

https://www.lds.org/manual/print/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/sections-132-138/section-132-marriage-an-eternal-covenant?lang=eng

The use of "socalled" here is highly problematic for me when he is talking about God's gifts.

Edited May 19, 2014 by calmoriah

[Rob Osborn]

I agree with you Rob that the idea of eternal regret for those experiencing salvation is counter to the fundamental idea of heaven. However it seems to be quite pervasive, perhaps because it is used to push people to go further in the here and now (while useful for immature spirits, I think using fear eventually backfires if continued tobe used once people get to a stage where love and a desire to progress for the sheer delight of growing). An example:

"How conclusive! How bounded! How limiting! And we come to realize again as it bears heavily upon us that this time, this life, this mortality is the time to prepare to meet God. How lonely and barren will be the so-called single blessedness throughout eternity! How sad to be separate and single and apart through countless ages when one could, by meeting requirements, have happy marriage for eternity in the temple by proper authority and continue on in ever-increasing joy and happiness, growth and development toward godhood. …"

https://www.lds.org/manual/print/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/sections-132-138/section-132-marriage-an-eternal-covenant?lang=eng

The use of "socalled" here is highly problematic for me when he is talking about God's gifts.

Section 132 of the D&C is hard to understand in some respects. I do not claim to know all things or even a majority of things but it seems rather logical to me that anyone who wants to be with their loved ones in eternity and repents of their sins shall indeed have just that- their loved ones in eternity. Again I see this scare tactic used in church to teach our youth "they must" marry in the church to someone in the temple and that anything else will lead to damnation. The wrong approach- the wrong approach.

[JAHS]

I agree with you Rob that the idea of eternal regret for those experiencing salvation is counter to the fundamental idea of heaven. However it seems to be quite pervasive, perhaps because it is used to push people to go further in the here and now (while useful for immature spirits, I think using fear eventually backfires if continued tobe used once people get to a stage where love and a desire to progress for the sheer delight of growing). An example:

"How conclusive! How bounded! How limiting! And we come to realize again as it bears heavily upon us that this time, this life, this mortality is the time to prepare to meet God. How lonely and barren will be the so-called single blessedness throughout eternity! How sad to be separate and single and apart through countless ages when one could, by meeting requirements, have happy marriage for eternity in the temple by proper authority and continue on in ever-increasing joy and happiness, growth and development toward godhood. …"

https://www.lds.org/manual/print/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/sections-132-138/section-132-marriage-an-eternal-covenant?lang=eng

The use of "socalled" here is highly problematic for me when he is talking about God's gifts.

 

 

I understand what both you and Rob are saying and I pretty much agree that the Plan of Salvation is supposed to be a plan of happiness, regardless of which glory we end up in. However Elder John A. Widtsoe said:

 

"Humanity will be grouped according to their works in three main divisions: Celestial (like the sun), Telestial (like the moon), Terrestrial (like the earth). Within each group there will be many gradations and divisions, until from the lowest to the highest in all groups there will be a series of gradually ascending glories. There can be no talk of a hell, except for the few "sons of Perdition," but undoubtedly the regret for lost opportunities will be keen among those in the lower degrees of glory." (John A. Widtsoe)

 

I guess opinions like his are where the idea of regret comes from.

[Glenn101]

Section 132 of the D&C is hard to understand in some respects. I do not claim to know all things or even a majority of things but it seems rather logical to me that anyone who wants to be with their loved ones in eternity and repents of their sins shall indeed have just that- their loved ones in eternity. Again I see this scare tactic used in church to teach our youth "they must" marry in the church to someone in the temple and that anything else will lead to damnation. The wrong approach- the wrong approach.

 

Rob, repenting of ones sins is just part of the deal. There is also the "working out or salvation" part. Also, there is no scare tactic about "marrying in the Temple or being damned". Section 132 (verses 15 - 17) makes it pretty clear that one must be sealed to his wife or her husband in order to attain exaltation. That may be considered damnation in a sense because such will not attain any increase but will live "separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever".

 

The scriptures do not agree with you that everyone will be with the ones that they love in the next life.

 

Glenn

[Calm]

I understand what both you and Rob are saying and I pretty much agree that the Plan of Salvation is supposed to be a plan of happiness, regardless of which glory we end up in. However Elder John A. Widtsoe said:

 

"Humanity will be grouped according to their works in three main divisions: Celestial (like the sun), Telestial (like the moon), Terrestrial (like the earth). Within each group there will be many gradations and divisions, until from the lowest to the highest in all groups there will be a series of gradually ascending glories. There can be no talk of a hell, except for the few "sons of Perdition," but undoubtedly the regret for lost opportunities will be keen among those in the lower degrees of glory." (John A. Widtsoe)

 

I guess opinions like his are where the idea of regret comes from.

Yes, it seems logical to us in mortality that there would be regrets for choices not made, so it does not surprise me in the least that many (most perhaps even) believe we will have regrets there, but from my point of view, we will be looking back on all of our choices and understanding why we as individuals chose to make them instead of others and will know ourselves so well as to understand that these choices were the ones we wanted to make so why regret them (these are the choices we make with eternal significance I am talking about...the choices we keep, not the ones we make because of lack of knowledge or understanding).

[Garden Girl]

I'm  trying to remember the talks I've heard that put forth the prospect of there being regret when we realize the choices we made, or could have made, etc.  I know I've heard this concept in several sources. 

The parable of the wheat and the tares touches on this and references the wailing and gnashing of teeth starting in Matt 13:40-43 for those who did not repent...

D&C 112:24 refers to the inhabitants of the earth... and the gross darkness of the minds of the people... and the Lord's vengeance... and a day of wrath, a day of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

D&C 45:53 ... And then shall they weep because of their iniquities...

 

And numerous other scriptures establish the concept of weeping, wailing, lamenting on that last day... so I would assume that we will be able to feel regret for some of our choices that we have made and the knowledge that we could have done better, etc. 

 

GG

[Calm]

But after judgment...after the payment of sins either by the self or through the atonement, after the Judgment when all but a few have immortality in some level of glory...could not the gnashing of teeth ( I love that phrase) be before that?

I see regret as driving people to accept the Atonement at some level, at which point the effects of sin will be processed and removed as promised...including regret.

Those who won't accept the Atonement most likely will be incapable of feeling true regret/remorse anyway. Any reget will be that someone else got in the way of having what they wanted.

Edited May 19, 2014 by calmoriah

[Rob Osborn]

Rob, repenting of ones sins is just part of the deal. There is also the "working out or salvation" part. Also, there is no scare tactic about "marrying in the Temple or being damned". Section 132 (verses 15 - 17) makes it pretty clear that one must be sealed to his wife or her husband in order to attain exaltation. That may be considered damnation in a sense because such will not attain any increase but will live "separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever".

 

The scriptures do not agree with you that everyone will be with the ones that they love in the next life.

 

Glenn

Of course the sons of perdition will not be with their loved ones in heaven but all those who are saved will be with their loved ones, saved by their sides, in heaven. The main point is that yes we all work out our salvation and we shall find that the road leading to salvation all has the same rules and all who can be saved will all enter into the same path (temple endowment) to be saved. So I should have explained it further. My point is that just because a person may marry outside the church not knowing will still be given the ample opportunity to work out that salvation in the correct manner. But by being exclusionary of Gods children just because they are not earthly members of the church is the wrong approach. We should ook at the scenerio different, thats all. All of us down here came here wanting the same goal in the end. Perhaps a few in the end cannot be redeemed fulfilling the scriptures which say that some will be cast into outer darkness, but for the vast majority, we shall find the path of salvation and all who will be saved will enter on the same terms and receive the same reward fulfilling yet also another scripture about the parable of the workers in the vineyard.

[Rob Osborn]

The idea that man could be saved in eternity into glory and yet feel regret for what could have been at the same time is in my opinion a damaging and non scriptural opinion of man. I do not envision a God that would save man into glory and then punish him forever with a feeling of regret. Th at is not godly, its not just and it certainly isnt salvation of any kind.

[Storm Rider]

I don't think that the following quote precisely fits the topic, but the principle contained therein does.  I have enjoyed Grider's writings; he stated, 

 

"All theologians bring certain doctrinal presuppositions and biases to Scripture as they seek to construct from Scripture their theologies. The true Wesleyan admits this and does not make correct doctrine a condition for salvation. We understand that if our sins are forgiven at the time of our death, we will be taken to heaven, even if our theology is off base a thousand miles. We are Christians if God, for Christ's sake, forgives our sins. He is able to do this only because of the death and resurrection of the virgin-born God-man, Jesus Christ. But we do not need to believe in any given theory of the Incarnation or the Atonement in order to be forgiven through Christ." - J. Kenneth Grider

 

I do believe that this mortal life is the final test, but the test has more to do with our heart than with our actions. It is not the number of sins we commit that is of importance, but it is maintaining the repentant heart yearning to follow Christ that is key.  I try to overlook the wayward actions of rebellious periods in my children and others and try to understand what value most. 

 

This life is not a trial run; this is serious and where we place our love has eternal meaning. As individuals we need to understand and remember our first love. 

[Garden Girl]

But after judgment...after the payment of sins either by the self or through the atonement, after the Judgment when all but a few have immortality in some level of glory...could not the gnashing of teeth ( I love that phrase) be before that?

I see regret as driving people to accept the Atonement at some level, at which point the effects of sin will be processed and removed as promised...including regret.

Those who won't accept the Atonement most likely will be incapable of feeling true regret/remorse anyway. Any reget will be that someone else got in the way of having what they wanted.

 

I see what you're saying, Cal... Ludlow in "Principles and Practices of the Restored Gospel" states that every person will be resurrected to that glory whose law s/he lived in mortality, and, attained during postmortality in the spirit world (via repentence, ordinances, etc).  The spirit of each individual will have lived God's law at different levels of righteousness, and thus each individual will be resurrected at his or her level of spiritual maturation. 

By time final judgment comes, we will have obtained a degree of righteousness and will be judged accordingly and that will determine our final assignment to a kingdom of glory... 

 

An extension of this could be that we will be comfortable where we are assigned because we've lived for that level of righteousness.

 

GG

[Guest]

Anyone know where this comes from?  Is it a doctrinal statement?

 

Thanks!

MnG

 

Edit: At this point I'm assuming it's a common reading of D&C 88:32. It that the only source?

I was speaking with someone the other day who is a member who has been attending another Church for 5 years...her comment is I am going there because "I feel more compfortable". Seems to me to not be doctrine as much as it is common sense.

[Ahab]

“I have a feeling that when the Lord comes to giving us our rewards, shall we say, and our punishments, that He will give that punishment which is the very least that our transgression will justify. I believe that He will bring into His justice all of the infinite love, and mercy, and kindness, and understanding which He has…And on the other hand I believe that when it comes to making the rewards for our good conduct, He will give us the maximum that it is possible to give having in mind the offense which we committed. I feel that very, very strongly.” (President J. Reuben Clark, 1955)

Some think that it doesn't matter then what we do in life because if we are going to where we are most comfortable so why bother being good, accepting the Gospel etc.

Some people are more comfortable being less good than other people, although they would probably not say it that way.

Like, what would you rather do on a typical Sunday,especially if the weather was perfect outside? Go sit in a church building for 3 hours singing to and praising God for making the Earth such a wonderful place for us to enjoy living here, or going someplace outside to enjoy it?

Being more comfortable in one place than in another place can involve some complex issues.

[Duncan]

Some people are more comfortable being less good than other people, although they would probably not say it that way.

Like, what would you rather do on a typical Sunday,especially if the weather was perfect outside? Go sit in a church building for 3 hours singing to and praising God for making the Earth such a wonderful place for us to enjoy living here, or going someplace outside to enjoy it?

Being more comfortable in one place than in another place can involve some complex issues.

 

 

I am ambidextrous I can do both!

[Nevo]

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Edited October 1, 2014 by Nevo

[Nevo]

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Edited October 1, 2014 by Nevo

[mercyngrace]

Thanks Nevo!