We Will Go Where We Are The Most Comfortable

[saemo]

I wonder if this idea of being wherever we will be most comfortable is pretty much just in our church or if other churches also think like this?

Similar idea for Catholics...either submitting to the will of God (heaven), or not (hell). Sheep and goats are divided from each other by the Shepherd.

Of course there are nuances that address many understandings/beliefs about God. Short version is, we don't believe anyone is judged for something they don't know. So if one has never heard of Jesus, one will be judged based on their understanding of God and how they followed God according to their understanding.

[bluebell]

 Short version is, we don't believe anyone is judged for something they don't know. So if one has never heard of Jesus, one will be judged based on their understanding of God and how they followed God according to their understanding.

 

LDS belief is the same.  We don't believe that anyone will be damned in ignorance.

 

The big difference of course is that in LDS doctrine we don't believe anyone will be saved in ignorance either.  In our belief everyone will eventually know God and have the chance/choice to follow Him and therefore everyone will eventually be able to be judged on equal footing and have access to the same blessings and gifts of God.  

[saemo]

LDS belief is the same.  We don't believe that anyone will be damned in ignorance.

 

The big difference of course is that in LDS doctrine we don't believe anyone will be saved in ignorance either.  In our belief everyone will eventually know God and have the chance/choice to follow Him and therefore everyone will eventually be able to be judged on equal footing and have access to the same blessings and gifts of God.  

Thanks.

I see the Catholic view as equal footing. Ignorance is not a sin by which we will be judged as in sin.

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin; but as it is they have no excuse for their sin.

Also, I thought LDS believed all were saved, and what is really being discussed is who will achieve exaltation?

[Rob Osborn]

There are those who feel very comfortable in the presence of Christ, but not in the presence of the Father.  They look forward to "heaven" (the terrestrial kingdom) but do not want to pay the price for anything else.

Which brings up another thing in our doctrine that seems strange- In our doctrine we teach that the terrestrial kingdom is a world separate from the telestial world and separate from the celestial world and that Christ will be there present in the terrestrial world. The only problem however is that Christ is clothed with celestial glory at this time and is supposed to be in the Celestial world sitting upon his throne to go no more out. So where is he? Is he in the terrestrial world or in the celestial world? According to our doctrine he will make "appearances" in the terrestrial world to the inhabitants there. What do the scriptures say?

77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. (D&C 76:77)

I have never understood this principle of receiving the celestial presence of the Son but not the same glory which the Father has.

[Tacenda]

I wonder if this idea of being wherever we will be most comfortable is pretty much just in our church or if other churches also think like this?

I find it of interest when I read the Book of Mormon and the New Testament that it really seems black or white as to our rewards versus punishments. Its either- come into my kingdom and receive eternal life and have all your sorrow wiped away "or" be not saved and have every last bit of pain and suffering heaped upon you. I think one of the problems paramount in all of this is the old McConkie teaching about telestial, terrestrial and celestial law. In the scriptures we are never told what each one of these laws entail. McConkie explained that the telestial law is the law of carnality- kind of a sinful law, the law of the world, law of the jungle. But our scriptures do not state this. Its only in the temple that we learn a little about each law. In the temple we learn that this lone and dreary earth is the telestial kingdom and that the glory of this earth is the Holy Ghost. We also learn that God has given us laws to live by while in this kingdom (for every kingdom there is a law given) and that compliance to these "holy" laws bring us blessings such as things like access to gifts of the spirit and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Thus by compliance and obedience here in this kingdom we can have glory added upon us while we are here. We are thus justified and sanctified by obedience to this law while we are here. But then, through further temple experience we learn that obedience to telestial law is just part of something greater and provides us with a stepping stone towards gaining salvation. After learning telestial law in the telestial kingdom we are introduced to a higher terrestrial law where we add to the law more laws to be obedient to. These constitute the higher terrestrial laws and will be in force during the millennium when the earth transforms from the telestial kingdom into the terrestrial kingdom. The terrestrial kingdom includes all the laws of the teslestial and adds to it. These are step by step laws that God has set up for us to learn to become perfect "in order to be saved". Of importance or paramount magnitude, is that we learn in the temple that salvation is only achieved when we come into perfection of celestial law in the celestial kingdom. The celestial law includes both telestial and terrestrial law. It is basically the completeion of steps taken that brings one into a state of perfection.

When one really starts to disect things down we see the pattern unfolding of God bringing all that can be saved into perfection before he presents the kingdom before the Father "spotless". Christ isn't taking the kingdom and placing people into subcategories of sinfulness. Neither is it a kingdom that allows people to find a degree of unfaithfulness and be happy or "comfortable" with. Just like at church- we do not have three levels of pews for the members. Just like the temple where we all where the same clothing and see and are seen as the same. Just like the parable of the workers in the vineyard- some working long and hard and others coming at the last minute- all receive the same reward. This all points to one thing- Christ comes during the millennium to perfect the saved and bring them all up to that same level where they can be saved.

This is so beautiful, I hope that's how it'll be. And the first part of your post of the church also believing we'll go where most comfortable doesn't cut it for me. I've always thought or been told it'd be pure hell if one is addicted to something and dies they'll still have those addictions but won't be able to satisfy them, I'm talking substance abuse, diet Dr. Pepper abuse , that doesn't sound very comfortable to me, and probably good to teach we don't start. I definitely don't agree with you that the church teaches we'll go where we are the most comfortable, it'd be nice though.

[Calm]

"I've always thought or been told it'd be pure hell if one is addicted to something and dies they'll still have those addictions but won't be able to satisfy them"

Are you suggesting the Atonement won't be able to remove addictions? (assuming that idea is correct)

[Tacenda]

"I've always thought or been told it'd be pure hell if one is addicted to something and dies they'll still have those addictions but won't be able to satisfy them"

Are you suggesting the Atonement won't be able to remove addictions? (assuming that idea is correct)

I guess, I'll be saved and all, but like I've also been taught, I'll take with me my knowledge or lack thereof, why not my addictions also?

[Calm]

Again what about the Atonement and its effects once you get there...don't you believe people will be able to change through repentance and being taught the gospel and having a chance to really penetrate?

[Calm]

We are taught that this healing (see link) can happen in the Spirit World as well as mortality...it certainly wouldn't be merciful or just if healing wasn't allowed for those who never knew their addictions were wrong and if healing is allowed for some cases of repentance, why not for all?

https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/steps/6?lang=eng

Edited May 24, 2014 by calmoriah

[bluebell]

"I've always thought or been told it'd be pure hell if one is addicted to something and dies they'll still have those addictions but won't be able to satisfy them"

Are you suggesting the Atonement won't be able to remove addictions? (assuming that idea is correct)

 

I remember being taught the same thing, but not in a way that suggested there would be no relief for such in the afterlife.

 

It was taught in the sense that some things are mush easier to repent of, or overcome, in mortality, and that that is why we need to try to overcome our weaknesses and repent of our sins while we are still here.

[bluebell]

Also, I thought LDS believed all were saved, and what is really being discussed is who will achieve exaltation?

 

LDS do not believe that everyone will be saved, but we do believe that hardly anyone will end up with satan in 'hell' for eternity.  It all pretty much depends on how someone is using the word 'saved'.

 

If by saved you mean 'live with God in Heaven' then that is the lds definition of exaltation.

 

If by saved you mean 'won't spend eternity in hell' then yes, we believe that almost everyone will be saved.

[cdowis]

77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. (D&C 76:77)

I have never understood this principle of receiving the celestial presence of the Son but not the same glory which the Father has.

 

Great question.

 

Well, I've given it some thought ==>> we have a record of Christ visiting the Nephites a year after the resurrection, as well as the apostles, both ancient and modern.  I guess the key here is the word "fullness" of their celestial glory.

[Rob Osborn]

One could make a list of anomalies with our doctrine on these matters. Here is a few more-

Why is the Godhead made up of three distinct personages if the throne of God only consists of the Father and the Son?

if everyone receives a body at resurrection, why do the telestial heirs still get ministered to by both ministering spirits and the Holy Ghost?

If the terrestrial heirs are those who repent, accept the gospel in the spirit world, and then are resurrected to dwell with Christ on earth during the millennium and build up his kingdom, why do they get kicked off in the end to a separate world?

Why are there sons of perdition found inhabiting the telestial world?(see 76:103, compare with Rev 21:

How come those who die without law get terrestrial glory and not celestial glory? (see D&C 76:72)

Why is it that Christ says he perfects his one fold and presents it spotless to the Father if only some of that fold actually dwell with the Father in actual perfection in celestial glory?

How come in the parable of the wheat and the tares there are only wheat who are stored in the garnerers to receive celestial glory while the rest- the tares are all bound and burned into hell?

If all that keeps us from returning to the Father is our sins, and all that are saved are completely forgiven, why only some who actually return to live again in his celestial kingdom?

Why are the telestial inhabitants counted as innumerable as the stars in heaven or as the sands on the seashore?

My personal opinion on all of the above is that every one of those questions disappear when we consider that the vision Joseph Smith saw of heaven included the three states of this earth during its progression to becoming the celestial. For instance- This earth we live on right now is the telestial kingdom. Here on this earth the inhabitants are as innumerable as the sands on the beach and also there are sons of perdition here just as described in section 76. It makes sense then tht the terrestrial includes all those who died without law because the terrestrial is nothing more than the earth during the millennium. As such- those children who died without law will have a chance to be raised into adulthood and accept the gospel and receive all the temple ordinanes for their exaltation. Speaking also for the other terrestrial inhabitants- those who have repented of their sins in the spirit worlld and are resurrected to dwell with Christ on the earth during the millennium will be building up the kingdom and becoming perfected to be presented alongside with all others to go on into celestial glory. The parable of the wheat and the tares also makes sense because the garners are temples of the Lord and the saved who get stored there are those who receive and accept the temple ordinances all to be crowned with celestial glory. All of the wheat receive celestial glory according to the parable while everyone else who are described as "tares" are the sons of perdition to be burned with everlasting damnation. Besides all that, the problem of why you would still have "ministering spirits" ministering to telestial inhabitants disappears because right now we do have ministering spirits that minister to us but after this kingdom is over and all the saved are resurrected there will be no more ministering spirits. Just a few things to get you started thinking.

[saemo]

LDS do not believe that everyone will be saved, but we do believe that hardly anyone will end up with satan in 'hell' for eternity. It all pretty much depends on how someone is using the word 'saved'.

If by saved you mean 'live with God in Heaven' then that is the lds definition of exaltation.

If by saved you mean 'won't spend eternity in hell' then yes, we believe that almost everyone will be saved.

Thanks.

Here is how I'm seeing it. Heaven is where those are, or will be, in the presence of God. Hell, like sin itself, is defined as a separation from God. Sin separates one from God now. The Good News being, through Christ we are reconciled. This is our Salvation, Jesus Christ. Hell is a permanent separation from God.

So, taking that and looking at the Mormon view of three heavens, where the celestial kingdom is where we will be with God in Heaven, then I must either view that the lower two levels are really a type of hell. (Following the definition that hell is a permanent separation from God.) Or, I must ignore this permanent separation from God and just go with it, and call these two levels heaven. In the latter view (just going with it), all are in heaven, and hell does not exist. Therefore, all are saved and it is not possible, and never was possible, to not be saved.

Edited May 25, 2014 by saemo

[thesometimesaint]

Thanks.

Here is how I'm seeing it. Heaven is where those are, or will be, in the presence of God. Hell, like sin itself, is defined as a separation from God. Sin separates one from God now. The Good News being, through Christ we are reconciled. This is our Salvation, Jesus Christ. Hell is a permanent separation from God.

So, taking that and looking at the Mormon view of three heavens, where the celestial kingdom is where we will be with God in Heaven, then I must either view that the lower two levels are really a type of hell. (Following the definition that hell is a permanent separation from God.) Or, I must ignore this permanent separation from God and just go with it, and call these two levels heaven. In the latter view (just going with it), all are in heaven, and hell does not exist. Therefore, all are saved and it is not possible, and never was possible, to not be saved.

 

Heaven is divided into essentially three Kingdoms of Glory(Houses) all under God the Father. He rules from the Celestial Kingdom while God the Son rules in the Terrestrial, and God the Holy Ghost rules in the Telestrial Kingdom. We go to where we will be the most comfortable. By way of analogy the Telestrial Kingdom is like a very beautiful room with fine furniture. The Terrestrial Kingdom is like the most beautiful room you have ever seen. with the finest of everything. The Celestial Kingdom is like a foyer it opens up onto everything. Outer Darkness, roughly equivalent to Christian Hell is not a Kingdom of Glory but one of damnation. Where those that go there are by their own act of will, will never repent. Some have compared Outer Darkness to having no light, no heat, no warmth of loving companionship. Eternal night endlessly adrift without footing or bearing gnawing at the failed ends of their own wickedness.

[bluebell]

Thanks.

Here is how I'm seeing it. Heaven is where those are, or will be, in the presence of God. Hell, like sin itself, is defined as a separation from God. Sin separates one from God now. The Good News being, through Christ we are reconciled. This is our Salvation, Jesus Christ. Hell is a permanent separation from God.

So, taking that and looking at the Mormon view of three heavens, where the celestial kingdom is where we will be with God in Heaven, then I must either view that the lower two levels are really a type of hell. (Following the definition that hell is a permanent separation from God.) Or, I must ignore this permanent separation from God and just go with it, and call these two levels heaven. In the latter view (just going with it), all are in heaven, and hell does not exist. Therefore, all are saved and it is not possible, and never was possible, to not be saved.

I think you have forgotten that LDS also believe in a place called Outer Darkness.

This is the place where satan and his devils will spend eternity, along with those few who have committed the unpardonable sin.

In LDS doctrine these people are not saved.

[rodheadlee]

I guess, I'll be saved and all, but like I've also been taught, I'll take with me my knowledge or lack thereof, why not my addictions also?

I certainly hope to be cured of my infirmities. Why wouldn't I be? Will there be folks walking around with missing limbs? with the plague? deaf? mute? Why are those of us with addictions considered some sort of special sinner that cannot be healed?

[cdowis]

 

 

I guess, I'll be saved and all, but like I've also been taught, I'll take with me my knowledge or lack thereof, why not my addictions also?

 

You will take them with you into the spirit world.  That will be part of the suffering one will have to suffer to get out of bondage to those addictions.  

 

We will continue to have the addiction but have no means to satisfy it.

Edited May 25, 2014 by cdowis

[saemo]

I think you have forgotten that LDS also believe in a place called Outer Darkness.

This is the place where satan and his devils will spend eternity, along with those few who have committed the unpardonable sin.

In LDS doctrine these people are not saved.

D&C132

4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

Doesn't this say any who are not sealed in marriage are damned? This, being a requirement for salvation? So, are not the lower heavenly kingdoms also comprised of the damned, who are simultaneously saved? (Half of one, half of the other?)

What is the difference, a level of damnation? Some are more damned the others, as well as some are more saved than others? This being based on how comfortable one is with damnation vs salvation?

What about the will of God?

Edited May 25, 2014 by saemo

[Rob Osborn]

D&C132

4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

Doesn't this say any who are not sealed in marriage are damned? This, being a requirement for salvation? So, are not the lower heavenly kingdoms also comprised of the damned, who are simultaneously saved? (Half of one, half of the other?)

What is the difference, a level of damnation? Some are more damned the others, as well as some are more saved than others? This being based on how comfortable one is with damnation vs salvation?

What about the will of God?

This is an often misunderstood doctrine. The scripture says that if you enter into this covenant of marriage (temple marriage) and then afterwards do not abide in it (such as cheating on your spouse) then shall you be damned meaning- then shall you be cast into hell to pay a penalty for not abiding in my covenant.

Damnation always means condemnation to hell either temporarily or perhaps more permanently.

[bluebell]

D&C132

4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

Doesn't this say any who are not sealed in marriage are damned? This, being a requirement for salvation? So, are not the lower heavenly kingdoms also comprised of the damned, who are simultaneously saved? (Half of one, half of the other?)

What is the difference, a level of damnation? Some are more damned the others, as well as some are more saved than others? This being based on how comfortable one is with damnation vs salvation?

 

 

Like i said before, it all depends on how someone is using the word 'saved'. If someone is using saved to mean 'lives with God as joint-heirs with Christ' then anything less is damnation to some extent.

 

What about the will of God?

 

 

In LDS doctrine, this is how the afterlife works because it is the will of God that it works this way.  

 

We believe that it is God's will to offer salvation to all of His children, and that He wants all of His children to return to be with Him again and to become joint-heirs with Christ.  However, His will doesn't override His children's agency.

 

He will force no man to Heaven, or to live in a way that he or she does not want to live.  And it is the choices that we make which show Him where we want to spend eternity.

 

Because of the Atonement, it really is up to us.  That doesn't mean though that we get to make the choice, and then also choose the consequences of the choice.  The scriptures are clear that in the end we will all know that God's judgments are just.  There will be no room for us to complain or argue about His final judgment of our lives or our ultimate reward.

[JAHS]

President Harold B. Lee seemed to be one who believed that we will go where we will be "comfortable". In a book of his teachings he said:

 

"We will be in the kingdom in which we are comfortable. Here in the eighty-eighth section of the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord is speaking of the various states to which we will go [when we die]. He says, "And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom" (D&C 88:21). This is logic; listen to this: "For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory" (D&C 88:22). That makes sense, doesn't it? If you couldn't live the law of the gospel here, you wouldn't be very happy in the celestial kingdom where that is required over there, would you? You would have to be more comfortable in another place. If you couldn't live the law of the terrestrial kingdom, you couldn't abide that law of the terrestrial kingdom. You would have to abide the law of the telestial kingdom." (Teachings of Harold B. Lee)

[Rob Osborn]

Here is something i have never understood with this living according to law and then going to that kingdom to spend eternity. Here goes-

The scriptures are very clear that in order to be saved from hell one "must" repent, be baptized and remain faithful after that. If you do not meet this one requirement you do not qualify for salvation from eternal hell. That in mind- think now of our church- in our church we have new converts who are just learning, perhaps still overcoming sinful tendencies, etc, then you have at the other end of the spectrum- the faithful members who have never faltered, have amazing faith and courage and are genuine saints of the most High God. Now- where do they sit at church? Side by side in welcoming and open arms for each other. Where are both allowed to go? They both can go to the temple, receive any and all blessings and covenants, etc. Here is my point- If I have just mentioned the very ends of who can and will be saved- one on the low end and the other on the high end, where then is the great disparity that would keep the one on a separate world while the other receives all blessings with the Father in the Celestial? think somewhere there is this false justification for saving one in a sinful behavior that keeps him out of the Fathers direct presence. But this notion is not supported anywhere in scripture. The scriptures are very plain and clear that everyone must repent of all of their sins in order to be saved. If everyone is saved from every last sin and they are cleansed through Christ that is all that is required to live again with the Father in his kingdom.

I

[Tacenda]

Here is something i have never understood with this living according to law and then going to that kingdom to spend eternity. Here goes-

The scriptures are very clear that in order to be saved from hell one "must" repent, be baptized and remain faithful after that. If you do not meet this one requirement you do not qualify for salvation from eternal hell. That in mind- think now of our church- in our church we have new converts who are just learning, perhaps still overcoming sinful tendencies, etc, then you have at the other end of the spectrum- the faithful members who have never faltered, have amazing faith and courage and are genuine saints of the most High God. Now- where do they sit at church? Side by side in welcoming and open arms for each other. Where are both allowed to go? They both can go to the temple, receive any and all blessings and covenants, etc. Here is my point- If I have just mentioned the very ends of who can and will be saved- one on the low end and the other on the high end, where then is the great disparity that would keep the one on a separate world while the other receives all blessings with the Father in the Celestial? think somewhere there is this false justification for saving one in a sinful behavior that keeps him out of the Fathers direct presence. But this notion is not supported anywhere in scripture. The scriptures are very plain and clear that everyone must repent of all of their sins in order to be saved. If everyone is saved from every last sin and they are cleansed through Christ that is all that is required to live again with the Father in his kingdom.

I

Bingo, and the very thought that everyone needs to be perfect is where His grace takes over! None of us can, it's impossible.

[halconero]

Bingo, and the very thought that everyone needs to be perfect is where His grace takes over! None of us can, it's impossible.

 

I agree with the caveat that the imposition of grace (divine favour) by Jesus Christ is recognized with adherence and devotion to Christ's teachings. Such adherence is further enabled through the grace of Christ.