We Will Go Where We Are The Most Comfortable

[Rob Osborn]

Bingo, and the very thought that everyone needs to be perfect is where His grace takes over! None of us can, it's impossible.

Thats exactly right. I honestly believe that the tree of life in the celestial kingdom is just that- a tree that heals and gives us life despite our perhaps imperfect tendencies. We speak of perfection cadidly not really knowing what it entails. In the scriptures uou read about this or that prophet who was "perfect for his day". What does this mean though? This is why I see heaven as more of a place where we will want to be with all those who we love and are capable of loving and being loved and getting along with. I do not see heaven as a tiered place where grades of people are shuffled off forever to lesser planets to learn some eternal lesson. Just doesn't cut it for me- where is the joy in that? That would be hell, even in the highest tier! My mother has been gone for about 7 years or so and she was the closest person I have ever met that was perfect? And yet, in mortality, she took the greatest joy in being around the lesser more sinful people- she loved them with a love that only could be described as "godly".She could make even the vilest of sinners around her feel like queens and kings wanting to better themselves and prove their worth. But more than that, she did not see a separation of even these and Gods greatest saints in the sight of God. This really helped me develop my love for others and see others all the same- as celestial grade. I honestly think Gods plan is so great and grand (and as yet still mostly unrevealed) that he will be so victorious in his campaign that not only will he save all that will want to be saved from Satan's grasp in eternal hell, but that he will take each one of those souls and exalt them to be Gods themselves- That is how Great our God is! And all who are saved will want nothing less than this!

[saemo]

In LDS doctrine, this is how the afterlife works because it is the will of God that it works this way.

We believe that it is God's will to offer salvation to all of His children, and that He wants all of His children to return to be with Him again and to become joint-heirs with Christ.

Logically then, the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms are contrary to God's will.

However, His will doesn't override His children's agency.

He will force no man to Heaven, or to live in a way that he or she does not want to live. And it is the choices that we make which show Him where we want to spend eternity.

Because of the Atonement, it really is up to us. That doesn't mean though that we get to make the choice, and then also choose the consequences of the choice. The scriptures are clear that in the end we will all know that God's judgments are just. There will be no room for us to complain or argue about His final judgment of our lives or our ultimate reward.

I understand it as, God created us with free will in order that we can love Him freely. Free will used to go against God is an abuse of free will, not a valid exercise of it. Going against God, freely, is the definition of sin. Sin separates us from God, which as I said, is the definition of hell. Hell is not the will of God, it is the will of those who are against God. There is no place in heaven for those who sin against God, have not sought God's mercy, and repented.

I agree God's judgements will be understood as just.

Edited May 26, 2014 by saemo

[SamIam]

Logically then, the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms are contrary to God's will.

I understand it as, God created us with free will in order that we can love Him freely. Free will used to go against God is an abuse of free will, not a valid exercise of it. Going against God, freely, is the definition of sin. Sin separates us from God, which as I said, is the definition of hell. Hell is not the will of God, it is the will of those who are against God. There is no place in heaven for those who sin against God, have not sought God's mercy, and repented.

I agree God's judgements will be understood as just.

 

Rebecca, how good to see you still visit from time to time.

[janderich]

Here is something i have never understood with this living according to law and then going to that kingdom to spend eternity. Here goes-

The scriptures are very clear that in order to be saved from hell one "must" repent, be baptized and remain faithful after that. If you do not meet this one requirement you do not qualify for salvation from eternal hell. That in mind- think now of our church- in our church we have new converts who are just learning, perhaps still overcoming sinful tendencies, etc, then you have at the other end of the spectrum- the faithful members who have never faltered, have amazing faith and courage and are genuine saints of the most High God. Now- where do they sit at church? Side by side in welcoming and open arms for each other. Where are both allowed to go? They both can go to the temple, receive any and all blessings and covenants, etc. Here is my point- If I have just mentioned the very ends of who can and will be saved- one on the low end and the other on the high end, where then is the great disparity that would keep the one on a separate world while the other receives all blessings with the Father in the Celestial? think somewhere there is this false justification for saving one in a sinful behavior that keeps him out of the Fathers direct presence. But this notion is not supported anywhere in scripture. The scriptures are very plain and clear that everyone must repent of all of their sins in order to be saved. If everyone is saved from every last sin and they are cleansed through Christ that is all that is required to live again with the Father in his kingdom.

Because both sinners and the righteous can go to church and the temple together does not mean they will both be exalted in the celestial kingdom. Every ordinance has an outward and an inward component. To receive water baptism does not give one entrance to the celestial kingdom. It must be accompanied by the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. One without the other is only half a baptism and is good for nothing as Joseph testified. The same goes with other ordinances. Outward symbols do not correspond to inner commitment.

 

In heaven there is no hiding who we are and how we feel, like we can on earth. Because of this, the unrighteous will not feel at ease with the righteous. The righteous work for others. They find joy in serving. The unrighteous find no such happiness. They see it as drudgery. They are focused on themselves. Moreover, in the eternal worlds our glory is not hidden. One will receive the glory like the sun the other like the moon and some like the stars. Like will attract like, or in the words or scripture, "For intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; wisdom receiveth widom; truth embraceth truth; virtue loveth vierture, light cleaveth unto light..." (D&C 88:40). 

[Rob Osborn]

Because both sinners and the righteous can go to church and the temple together does not mean they will both be exalted in the celestial kingdom. Every ordinance has an outward and an inward component. To receive water baptism does not give one entrance to the celestial kingdom. It must be accompanied by the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. One without the other is only half a baptism and is good for nothing as Joseph testified. The same goes with other ordinances. Outward symbols do not correspond to inner commitment.

 

In heaven there is no hiding who we are and how we feel, like we can on earth. Because of this, the unrighteous will not feel at ease with the righteous. The righteous work for others. They find joy in serving. The unrighteous find no such happiness. They see it as drudgery. They are focused on themselves. Moreover, in the eternal worlds our glory is not hidden. One will receive the glory like the sun the other like the moon and some like the stars. Like will attract like, or in the words or scripture, "For intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; wisdom receiveth widom; truth embraceth truth; virtue loveth vierture, light cleaveth unto light..." (D&C 88:40).

But, there are no sinners or unrighteous in heaven. Everyone must repent from all sins to gain salvation from hell.

[thesometimesaint]

Logically then, the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms are contrary to God's will.

I understand it as, God created us with free will in order that we can love Him freely. Free will used to go against God is an abuse of free will, not a valid exercise of it. Going against God, freely, is the definition of sin. Sin separates us from God, which as I said, is the definition of hell. Hell is not the will of God, it is the will of those who are against God. There is no place in heaven for those who sin against God, have not sought God's mercy, and repented.

I agree God's judgements will be understood as just.

 

No it is not. Gods' will is that he wants all of us to worship him. The gift of Agency. To choose for ourselves who we shall serve. But he will force no man(woman) to Heaven. Some obviously will be better at it than others. "In my Fathers House(Family) there are many mansions"  The glory of the sun, glory of the moon, glory of the stars.

 

The freedom to choose only one thing is not freedom in any meaningful sense of the word. Our sins always separates us from our God. Repentance binds us to him. Some only want limited rewards in Heaven. God isn't going to force anyone to be with him. It is all dependent on what we want. God is merciful to those that repent. Those that refuse to repent, other accommodations will be found for them.

Edited May 26, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[saemo]

No it is not. Gods' will is that he wants all of us to worship him. The gift of Agency. To choose for ourselves who we shall serve. But he will force no man(woman) to Heaven. Some obviously will be better at it than others. "In my Fathers House(Family) there are many mansions" The glory of the sun, glory of the moon, glory of the stars.

Of course it is God's will. What is the greatest commandment?

I agree there will be many mansions, in degrees. I do not agree these mansions are outside of one heaven.

The freedom to choose only one thing is not freedom in any meaningful sense of the word.

Loving God, seeking to follow his will, is the only meaningful thing. All other choices are non choices. Diverging a bit, but one of things that distinguishes a person who is holy in this life, is that they do not see sin as a choice, at all.

Our sins always separates us from our God. Repentance binds us to him. Some only want limited rewards in Heaven. God isn't going to force anyone to be with him. It is all dependent on what we want. God is merciful to those that repent. Those that refuse to repent, other accommodations will be found for them.

Why do you think God limits His gifts to the repentant? Jesus made it clear, all that is His, is ours. In Him, with Him, and through Him. Why diminish what Jesus taught to match to the whims of man? Why not believe God that God loves you that much? Edited May 27, 2014 by saemo

[Ahab]

It would be easier to understand if you thought of a kingdom in heaven as an order of glory, rather than as a particular place. Different degrees of glory is what distinguishes people and glory is all about intelligence. The glory of God is intelligence. Remember?

[janderich]

But, there are no sinners or unrighteous in heaven. Everyone must repent from all sins to gain salvation from hell.

I agree with you and perhaps I could edit my previous statement slightly. But it appears to me that it is not just a mater of if we repent, but when. Those who obtain the greatest glory receive the fullness of the gospel while here in mortality. Others will not repent until well after this life when the evidence and knowledge of God become undeniable. These will receive a lesser glory. 

[thesometimesaint]

Of course it is God's will. What is the greatest commandment?

I agree there will be many mansions, in degrees. I do not agree these mansions are outside of one heaven.

Loving God, seeking to follow his will, is the only meaningful thing. All other choices are non choices. Diverging a bit, but one of things that distinguishes a person who is holy in this life, is that they do not see sin as a choice, at all.

Why do you think God limits His gifts to the repentant? Jesus made it clear, all that is His, is ours. In Him, with Him, and through Him. Why diminish what Jesus taught to match to the whims of man? Why not believe God that God loves you that much?

 

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. And the second is like unto to it to love our neighbor like ourselves. Upon this lay all the of the prophets . OK now we've established that. What relevance does that have to where in Heaven we will be?

 

I've never said Heaven was outside of Heaven, that makes no sense.

 

Excuse me. Jesus also said that If we love him we will keep his commandments. Keeping the commandments is a verb, and love while it is great is a noun.

 

We all sin and fall short of the Glory of God.

 

See Sermon on the Mount. See The Parable of the Talents.

[Vance]

Thanks.

Here is how I'm seeing it. Heaven is where those are, or will be, in the presence of God. Hell, like sin itself, is defined as a separation from God.

IF God is omnipresent, THEN you can't EVER be separated from God.

Conclusion, God is NOT omnipresent.

 

 

Sin separates one from God now.

IF God is omnipresent, THEN you can't EVER be separated from God.

Conclusion, God is NOT omnipresent.

 

Hell is a permanent separation from God.

IF God is omnipresent, THEN you can't EVER be separated from God.

Conclusion, God is NOT omnipresent.

(Following the definition that hell is a permanent separation from God.)

IF God is omnipresent, THEN you can't EVER be separated from God.

Conclusion, God is NOT omnipresent.

Or, I must ignore this permanent separation from God and just go with it, . . .

IF God is omnipresent, THEN you can't EVER be separated from God.

Conclusion, God is NOT omnipresent.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Vance

[Ahab]

I agree with you and perhaps I could edit my previous statement slightly. But it appears to me that it is not just a mater of if we repent, but when. Those who obtain the greatest glory receive the fullness of the gospel while here in mortality. Others will not repent until well after this life when the evidence and knowledge of God become undeniable. These will receive a lesser glory.

Lesser glory because... ???

Because if they had repented sooner they would have shown that they had enough intelligence to know it was better for them to repent sooner than later, and they would have advanced in intelligence beyond the intelligence of someone who didn't repent sooner, learning other things that someone with less intelligence hadn't learned, yet, or possibly will never learn because they don't care enough to advance in intelligence beyond the intelligence they currently have and are comfortable with.

Repentance is all about moving on, advancing in intelligence, evident by both thought and action, to become, hopefully, as intelligent as our Father in heaven. And even when a person is not committing any sin, as far as they know, and sin involves knowing better but not doing better, even without sin we show our level of intelligence by what we do as well as what we think.

So look at those who don't accept intelligent counsel above the counsel they do accept, asking yourself and God why they don't accept it. You can flat out tell someone something intelligent and not all you tell will accept it as intelligence. And why not? Because they're not intelligent enough to see it as an intelligent thought, even though it is, and beyond their current level of intelligence.

We're told that on this Earth there are and have been people in all degrees of glory, although not all have a fulness of glory of a particular order or degree of glory. Those who have celestial glory, although not a fulness, will move on and advance to receive a fulness of celestial glory, while others may not even advance to the terrestrial degree of glory.

So it's not so much about where we are or will be, logistically, but how far advanced we will be in glory, and glory is all about having a certain degree or order of intelligence.

[Vance]

What about the will of God?

To have all men saved?

1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Of course it is God's will. What is the greatest commandment?

I agree there will be many mansions, in degrees. I do not agree these mansions are outside of one heaven.

Loving God, seeking to follow his will, is the only meaningful thing. All other choices are non choices. Diverging a bit, but one of things that distinguishes a person who is holy in this life, is that they do not see sin as a choice, at all.

Why do you think God limits His gifts to the repentant? Jesus made it clear, all that is His, is ours. In Him, with Him, and through Him. Why diminish what Jesus taught to match to the whims of man? Why not believe God that God loves you that much?

The problem lies in how we think about heaven vs hell. One way to think about it is not so much in a black and white fashion but in a matter of degrees or percentages. Were "heaven" is 100% and hell is 0% glory.

[The Nehor]

Wherever my hammock is, there will my heart be also.

[halconero]

I agree there will be many mansions, in degrees. I do not agree these mansions are outside of one heaven.

Why not? Plural Heavens are prevalent in the Bible.

The beginning of the Lord's Prayer is better understood as "Our Father, who art in the Heavens, hallowed by thy name."

Edited May 27, 2014 by halconero

[Vance]

I agree there will be many mansions, in degrees. I do not agree these mansions are outside of one heaven.

Or perhaps you mean the third heaven.

2 Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

[saemo]

Why not? Plural Heavens are prevalent in the Bible.

The beginning of the Lord's Prayer is better understood as "Our Father, who art in the Heavens, hallowed by thy name."

Rewriting scripture to match what one wants to believe doesn't really do it for me. But thanks anyway. :-)

[teddyaware]

Rewriting scripture to match what one wants to believe doesn't really do it for me. But thanks anyway. :-)

How dare the Apostle Paul introduce a teaching as unscriptural as the notion of a plurality of heavens? The following statement from Paul is an absolute outrage!

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. (2 Cor 12)

 

Edit: Sorry Vance, I missed your post; no intention to steal your thunder.

Edited May 27, 2014 by teddyaware

[bluebell]

Rewriting scripture to match what one wants to believe doesn't really do it for me. But thanks anyway. :-)

I may be misunderstanding him, but I think he means that that is a closer and more accurate interpretation of the original language used.

If that is true, then changing heavens to heaven would actually be the rewriting of scripture.

[saemo]

How dare the Apostle Paul introduce a teaching as unscriptural as the notion of a plurality of heavens? The following statement from Paul is an absolute outrage!

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. (2 Cor 12)

 

Edit: Sorry Vance, I missed your post; no intention to steal your thunder.

 

Yes, believe it or not, that verse has been in the Catholic Bible for few hundred years.

 

Haydock's commentary provides the understanding I have of this verse.

 

Ver. 4. Caught up into paradise. St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas are of opinion that this third heaven and paradise are the same place, and designate the abode of the blessed. In order to understand the language of the apostle, we must observe that the Hebrews distinguished three different heavens. The first comprised the air, the clouds, &c. as far as the fixed stars. The second included all the fixed stars; and the third was the abode of Angels, in which God himself discovered his infinite glory, &c. The first is called in Scripture simply the heavens, the second the firmament, and the third the heaven of heavens. (Calmet)

 

Sorry, I don't see it as implying there are three different heavens, as LDS believe.

Edited May 27, 2014 by saemo

[ERayR]

I agree with you and perhaps I could edit my previous statement slightly. But it appears to me that it is not just a mater of if we repent, but when. Those who obtain the greatest glory receive the fullness of the gospel while here in mortality. Others will not repent until well after this life when the evidence and knowledge of God become undeniable. These will receive a lesser glory. 

 

Then what do you do with Christ's parable of the workers hired at different, later, hours to work the vineyard, yet all received the same wages?

 

To me it is not when you come but what you do after you come.

Edited May 27, 2014 by ERayR

[thesometimesaint]

Yes, believe it or not, that verse has been in the Catholic Bible for few hundred years.

 

Haydock's commentary provides the understanding I have of this verse.

 

Ver. 4. Caught up into paradise. St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas are of opinion that this third heaven and paradise are the same place, and designate the abode of the blessed. In order to understand the language of the apostle, we must observe that the Hebrews distinguished three different heavens. The first comprised the air, the clouds, &c. as far as the fixed stars. The second included all the fixed stars; and the third was the abode of Angels, in which God himself discovered his infinite glory, &c. The first is called in Scripture simply the heavens, the second the firmament, and the third the heaven of heavens. (Calmet)

 

Sorry, I don't see it as implying there are three different heavens, as LDS believe.

 

So Augustine and Aquinas both rewrote the Bible. Interesting position for a Catholic to take.

[Ahab]

Sorry, I don't see it as implying there are three different heavens, as LDS believe.

LDS are not in total agreement with each other or with God either, and just as some say there is only one God but not only one person who is God, some also say there is only one heaven but many mansions, or places, in heaven.

Most agree that there are 3 main divisions or orders of heaven or heavenly bodies with each of those having sub-divisions within them.

[saemo]

So Augustine and Aquinas both rewrote the Bible. Interesting position for a Catholic to take.

As I have said before, I accept what the Catholic Church teaches, which includes the authority to interpret scripture. Sts. Augustine and Aquinas articulate what the Catholic Church teaches. I don't believe they wrote the Bible, just as I don't believe Joseph Smith wrote the Bible when you go by the interpretation of the LDS Church.

Neither of our churches are sola scriptura. An interpretation comes from somewhere. (Even for sola scriptura.)

Edited May 28, 2014 by saemo