We Will Go Where We Are The Most Comfortable

[saemo]

LDS are not in total agreement with each other or with God either, and just as some say there is only one God but not only one person who is God, some also say there is only one heaven but many mansions, or places, in heaven.

Most agree that there are 3 main divisions or orders of heaven or heavenly bodies with each of those having sub-divisions within them.

Thanks. I can see how people come to this interpretation.

Just to throw a wrench in it all, the ancient Hebrews believed in seven levels of heaven. Though, as with so many numerical values in the OT, this can be viewed as symbolic. Seven being a symbol of divine perfection or completion.

Edited May 28, 2014 by saemo

[halconero]

Rewriting scripture to match what one wants to believe doesn't really do it for me. But thanks anyway. :-)

No...I mean it really does...the Greek word in the oldest manuscripts is the plural for Heaven.

The Lord's Prayer in the original Greek actually reads "Our Father, who art in the Heavens."

If anything it's us poor saps in English who have rewritten it. The French and Spanish versions have maintained the correct translation of the original manuscripts for example:

"Notre Père qui es aux cieux (vs the singular ciel)."

And

"Nuestro Padre que estás en los cielos (vs singular cielo)."

Heck, even the Latin Vulgate from the Catholic Church uses the plural "Heavens."

[saemo]

No...I mean it really does...the Greek word in the oldest manuscripts is the plural for Heaven.

The Lord's Prayer in the original Greek actually reads "Our Father, who art in the Heavens."

If anything it's us poor saps in English who have rewritten it. The French and Spanish versions have maintained the correct translation of the original manuscripts for example:

"Notre Père qui es aux cieux (vs the singular ciel)."

And

"Nuestro Padre que estás en los cielos (vs singular cielo)."

Heck, even the Latin Vulgate from the Catholic Church uses the plural "Heavens."

Thanks.

[halconero]

No probs.

[Rob Osborn]

Yes, believe it or not, that verse has been in the Catholic Bible for few hundred years.

 

Haydock's commentary provides the understanding I have of this verse.

 

Ver. 4. Caught up into paradise. St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas are of opinion that this third heaven and paradise are the same place, and designate the abode of the blessed. In order to understand the language of the apostle, we must observe that the Hebrews distinguished three different heavens. The first comprised the air, the clouds, &c. as far as the fixed stars. The second included all the fixed stars; and the third was the abode of Angels, in which God himself discovered his infinite glory, &c. The first is called in Scripture simply the heavens, the second the firmament, and the third the heaven of heavens. (Calmet)

 

Sorry, I don't see it as implying there are three different heavens, as LDS believe.

This is something I have been working on for a while in our LDS theology. I am reminded of in the Old Testament of the dream/vision of "Jacob's ladder".

12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. (Gen. 28:12)

In LDS theology Joseph Smith interpreted it this way-

"Paul ascended into the third heavens, and he could understand the three principal rounds of Jacob's ladder—the telestial, the terrestrial, and the celestial glories or kingdoms, where Paul saw and heard things which were not lawful for him to utter. I could explain a hundred fold more than I ever have of the glories of the kingdoms manifested to me in the vision, were I permitted, and were the people prepared to receive them." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.304)

Later on Joseph explained this little mystery about "ladders"-

"When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel--you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave."

HC 6:306-307

Now, let's tie it all together-

The ladder in Jacob's dream is a representation of three heavens- there are three principle rungs on the ladder. The bottom rung, or lowest heaven is this earth right now. That is why it touched the earth in the dream. In the scriptures it speaks of this earth and heaven passing away when Christ comes for it says we will get a new earth and a new heaven-

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness (2 Peter 3:10-13)

Thus, when Christ comes the earth will move into the second heaven. This is the terrestrial glory of the earth and the middle rung of Jacob's ladder. This heaven and earth also will pass away and again there shall be a new heaven and earth after the millennium and the earth will be moved into the last and final "third heaven"-

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (Rev: 21:1)

Thus- think about it- We must learn to climb the ladder just AsJoseph Smith taught- we must start here in this earth in this first heaven and learn the principles needed to get to the next rung- the next heaven which is the earth with its new heaven during the millennium. But that is not all, we must then learn more and again climb to the next or the highets rung- the third heaven which is the earth once again, renewed and also having again a new heaven. Only this heaven is immortal and does not pass away just as will be our bodies at that point- immortal also. Thus when Paul ascended to the third heaven he basically went and saw the earth in its final state in the third heaven from now (speaking of time and sequences of this earth and its heavens).

[saemo]

This is something I have been working on for a while in our LDS theology. I am reminded of in the Old Testament of the dream/vision of "Jacob's ladder".12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. (Gen. 28:12)In LDS theology Joseph Smith interpreted it this way-"Paul ascended into the third heavens, and he could understand the three principal rounds of Jacob's ladder—the telestial, the terrestrial, and the celestial glories or kingdoms, where Paul saw and heard things which were not lawful for him to utter. I could explain a hundred fold more than I ever have of the glories of the kingdoms manifested to me in the vision, were I permitted, and were the people prepared to receive them." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.304)Later on Joseph explained this little mystery about "ladders"-"When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel--you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave."HC 6:306-307Now, let's tie it all together-The ladder in Jacob's dream is a representation of three heavens- there are three principle rungs on the ladder. The bottom rung, or lowest heaven is this earth right now. That is why it touched the earth in the dream. In the scriptures it speaks of this earth and heaven passing away when Christ comes for it says we will get a new earth and a new heaven-10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness (2 Peter 3:10-13)Thus, when Christ comes the earth will move into the second heaven. This is the terrestrial glory of the earth and the middle rung of Jacob's ladder. This heaven and earth also will pass away and again there shall be a new heaven and earth after the millennium and the earth will be moved into the last and final "third heaven"-1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (Rev: 21:1)Thus- think about it- We must learn to climb the ladder just AsJoseph Smith taught- we must start here in this earth in this first heaven and learn the principles needed to get to the next rung- the next heaven which is the earth with its new heaven during the millennium. But that is not all, we must then learn more and again climb to the next or the highets rung- the third heaven which is the earth once again, renewed and also having again a new heaven. Only this heaven is immortal and does not pass away just as will be our bodies at that point- immortal also. Thus when Paul ascended to the third heaven he basically went and saw the earth in its final state in the third heaven from now (speaking of time and sequences of this earth and its heavens).

That is very elaborate.

Jesus names Himself as Jacob's ladder, in His dialogue with Nathanael.

John 1:51

And he said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, you will see the sky opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

So we can understand by Jesus' Word, that he is the means to heaven.

Also the notes in my Bible, for the Genesis verse (Jacob's ladder):

[28:12] Stairway: in Hebrew, sullam, traditionally but inaccurately translated as “ladder.” The corresponding verb, salal, means “to heap up” something, such as dirt for a highway or a ramp. The imagery in Jacob’s dream may be derived from the Babylonian ziggurat or temple tower, “with its top in the sky” (11:4), and with brick steps leading up to a small temple at the top.

So the whole wrung thing seems made up to me.

Revelations 1, like all of Revelations, is rich in symbolism. I see a deeper understanding is found in spiritual analogy, not literalism.

[why me]

Rewriting scripture to match what one wants to believe doesn't really do it for me. But thanks anyway. :-)

And yet most churches have done this through their own interpretations of scriptures which is the reason why we have so many christian churches disagreeing with each other. How often on the catholic site have catholics and mormons been disagreeing with each other about what a scripture actually means?

Edited May 28, 2014 by why me

[why me]

That is very elaborate.

Jesus names Himself as Jacob's ladder, in His dialogue with Nathanael.

John 1:51

And he said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, you will see the sky opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

So we can understand by Jesus' Word, that he is the means to heaven.

Also the notes in my Bible, for the Genesis verse (Jacob's ladder):

[28:12] Stairway: in Hebrew, sullam, traditionally but inaccurately translated as “ladder.” The corresponding verb, salal, means “to heap up” something, such as dirt for a highway or a ramp. The imagery in Jacob’s dream may be derived from the Babylonian ziggurat or temple tower, “with its top in the sky” (11:4), and with brick steps leading up to a small temple at the top.

So the whole wrung thing seems made up to me.

Revelations 1, like all of Revelations, is rich in symbolism. I see a deeper understanding is found in spiritual analogy, not literalism.

My case in point. You have a different interpretation that fits your faith.

[why me]

Why do you think God limits His gifts to the repentant? Jesus made it clear, all that is His, is ours. In Him, with Him, and through Him. Why diminish what Jesus taught to match to the whims of man? Why not believe God that God loves you that much?

And yet, the Pope has stressed to catholics that hell is a real place. He will still send someone to hell. Of course, what you wrote sounds very nice when put in the nutshell. But...hell for catholics is a real tangible place and regardless of god's love or what you just wrote about HIm, down to hell the catholic will go if they do not repent.

 

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2014/03/23/repent-now-to-avoid-hell-pope-tells-mafia-members/

 

And then we have this:

 

http://townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/2014/03/25/pope-francis-threatens-hell--hooray-n1813995/page/full

Edited May 28, 2014 by why me

[janderich]

Then what do you do with Christ's parable of the workers hired at different, later, hours to work the vineyard, yet all received the same wages?

 

To me it is not when you come but what you do after you come.

In my previous statement I simply gave the rule not all the exceptions. In the parable of the workers, those that were hired last were still offered the same wage. Just as those who hear the gospel later in life or in the spirit world are offered the same blessings. But note that the Lord judges these people based on what they would have received had they been offered the gospel, "All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it , who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom" (D&C 137:7-. Further, heirs of salvation will accept the truth they have been given and live according to it.

 

A person cannot safely coast along having the gospel but delay accepting it fully while they partake of a sin here and an indiscretion there and then hope to receive the same blessings as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, or many others who gave their all. A person must grab on to the truth when it is offered and not let it go. Such a person will work while the day is long and will be worthy of their hire. But the other has no promise. He was hired for a given wage but then loafed the day away. Such a person will not be given the same wage. 

[Vance]

Rewriting scripture to match what one wants to believe doesn't really do it for me.

Sure it does.

I know because you do it quite often.

[Vance]

Yes, believe it or not, that verse has been in the Catholic Bible for few hundred years.

 

Haydock's commentary provides the understanding I have of this verse.

 

Ver. 4. Caught up into paradise. St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas are of opinion that this third heaven and paradise are the same place, and designate the abode of the blessed. In order to understand the language of the apostle, we must observe that the Hebrews distinguished three different heavens. The first comprised the air, the clouds, &c. as far as the fixed stars. The second included all the fixed stars; and the third was the abode of Angels, in which God himself discovered his infinite glory, &c. The first is called in Scripture simply the heavens, the second the firmament, and the third the heaven of heavens. (Calmet)

 

Sorry, I don't see it as implying there are three different heavens, as LDS believe.

Well, it certainly doesn't imply a single heaven as YOU have been peddling.

Oh, and as to your logic, so an explicit declaration of a THIRD heaven doesn't really, really, really "imply" that there are three different heavens?

You don't realize how ridiculous that sounds?

Edited May 28, 2014 by Vance

[halconero]

Sure it does.

I know because you do it quite often.

 

So do we. Saemo and I were just having a nice dialogue, one in which she was gracious enough to recognize my point.

[why me]

So do we. Saemo and I were just having a nice dialogue, one in which she was gracious enough to recognize my point.

So do we all. Thus, my previous point. I have had many discussions with saemo on a different board. I haven't gotten a lovey dovey feeling from saemo when it comes to the mormon church. But saemo is extremely nice here with their new age catholicism. The point is catholics have a heaven and a hell. And many are in hell regardless if the spirits feel comfortable there or not. So, would a non-repentant catholic priest, who molested children, upon death go to heaven or hell? Or would god's love save him from such a fate as hell?

 

Let's be more sensitive about the examples you use please.