Daniel Peterson Rips It Up

[BCSpace]

I think it relevant to bringing us to Christ and becoming like him?

 

 

I think it is.  It speaks to the authenticity of the Book of Mormon by which we claim brings us "nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book".  However, I would agree that not having such information does nothing to detract from the BoM's claim since science has no proof against the existence of pre-Coloumbian horses.

[Brian 2.0]

However, I would agree that not having such information does nothing to detract from the BoM's claim since science has no proof against the existence of pre-Coloumbian horses.

 

Science has no proof against the existence of dragons either, right?  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[Pahoran]

Speaking of denial, Scott, the Church denied wiretapping, which is completely true. Local leaders did, however, use illegally recorded tapes as evidence in disciplinary trials. They didn't do the right thing and refuse to accept it as evidence.

 

I have, by the way, received letters from a controversial academic public figure who had been excommunicated, that had been cut open and taped shut again. This person, who lived in the Salt Lake area, denied having cut their own letters open. I'm not sure if the Church was involved, of course. A search warrant would be needed to do that legally, however I'm not aware of the person ever having done anything illegal, and no charges were ever filed against them. I'm not sure if the clumsy cutting open and taping was due to an inept person, as there are methods of doing the same thing that are much less detectable, or if it was intended to send me a message.

 

Remarkable.

 

Do black helicopters follow you around, too?

 

Regards,

Pahoran

[cognitiveharmony]

However, I would agree that not having such information does nothing to detract from the BoM's claim since science has no proof against the existence of pre-Coloumbian horses.

 

BCSpace, I'm interested what "proof against the existence of pre-Columbian horses" would actually be in your eyes other than a total absence of evidence? 

[wenglund]

Wouldn't a simple no be clearer (and easier to type)?

 

It may have been easier, but it wouldn't convey the points I intended to convey.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[why me]

Since this thread is about dan, I thought that I would say a couple of words. I owe dan a lot. When I was experiencing problems with the church and with what I found on the internet, it was dan and the fair board that really helped make things clear for me. The way dan was posting ´his defense of the church helped me a great deal. Of course he wasn't alone in helping me but his influence was greatly felt by me. I know that dan has taken a lot of critique on exmember boards but I can understand why. Dan has helped many people and although these people may be silent I know that they are out there in cyberland. So, it is no surprise the someone would attempt to embarrass him by filming him in secret. It only shows the good work that dan has done.

[Brian 2.0]

It may have been easier, but it wouldn't convey the points I intended to convey.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Don't answer the question that was asked, answer the question that should have been asked.

Something like that, right?

[wenglund]

Don't answer the question that was asked, answer the question that should have been asked.

Something like that, right?

 

Wrong. Answer the question and then some.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Brian 2.0]

Wrong. Answer the question and then some.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Okay. Completely separate question then that didn't seem to be part of the last one I guess...

Since were on this topic of horse bones and carbon dating, I was curious if you knew of any finds/papers where they found horse bones in the Americas that when Carbon dated places them back to BOM times? I don't ask for salvation reasons or anything and am not basing my belief in the BOM on it, I'm just curious and you are pretty well read of the posters here. Thanks in advance.

[frank_jessop]

Okay. Completely separate question then that didn't seem to be part of the last one I guess...

Since were on this topic of horse bones and carbon dating, I was curious if you knew of any finds/papers where they found horse bones in the Americas that when Carbon dated places them back to BOM times? I don't ask for salvation reasons or anything and am not basing my belief in the BOM on it, I'm just curious and you are pretty well read of the posters here. Thanks in advance.

I would like the same.

Edited April 16, 2014 by frank_jessop

[why me]

I can't answer anything about horses. But it is certainly one of those mysteries. However, when I put the book of Mormon in a broader perspective I see it as a marvelous work and a wonder. I have no idea how Joseph Smith could have written it. And I have no idea how he could write a book with his head in a hat. Sometimes we get bogged down with horses but the big picture is quite impressive when it comes to the book of Mormon. And I have to say one more thing. To believe that some person would actually spend time writing such a book is quite mind blowing. Why bother would be my first question. What would be the objective? To found a church? But why would one need a new book to found a church?

 

So, I try not to get to bogged down by horses.

[Tacenda]

Why Me,

1. JS wanted answers for everyone and felt he had a kinder one...Universalism. He wanted to share the idea of progression and levels, Swedenborg and Masonry.

2. In JS's day, writing was a lot more poetic, for lack of a better term, then now. They lived in a much slower environment with less distraction, so plenty of time and creativity to write. And it was an age where those in the US were immigrants and came from no freedom in religion, so why not start a new religion and add more scripture in the free land.

All good reasons I guess, and very possible it is inspired work.

[BCSpace]

BCSpace, I'm interested what "proof against the existence of pre-Columbian horses" would actually be in your eyes other than a total absence of evidence? 

 

I'm merely pointing out that scientifically, a lack of evidence itself is not evidence against anything.

[wenglund]

Okay. Completely separate question then that didn't seem to be part of the last one I guess...

 

Wrong, again (you are on a roll). Same question, broader scope..

 

Since were on this topic of horse bones and carbon dating, I was curious if you knew of any finds/papers where they found horse bones in the Americas that when Carbon dated places them back to BOM times? I don't ask for salvation reasons or anything and am not basing my belief in the BOM on it, I'm just curious and you are pretty well read of the posters here. Thanks in advance.

 

If I had laid claim to horse bones and carbon dating, and were I (as opposed to you) to think it pertinent to coming to Christ and becoming like him, I would let you know.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited April 16, 2014 by wenglund

[Calm]

, so plenty of time and creativity to write.

Joseph Smith was not of the leisure class. Somehow I doubt after a day's hard labour clearing land, digging, building a home farming, etc,etc, he just sat around at night at loose ends looking for something to do.

[cognitiveharmony]

I'm merely pointing out that scientifically, a lack of evidence itself is not evidence against anything.

This is a demonstrably false assertion. Science uses an "absence of evidence" to disprove hypotheses fairly consistently. That's how science works. You hypothesize, you experiment, then based on the results of your experiment you reach a determination based on the evidence which is sometimes manifested as an absence of evidence. The only time you overturn scientific consensus is with positive evidence, otherwise, consensus based on the absence of evidence stands. For example, I could currently hypothesize that there are still dinosaurs alive on the earth. I can test this hypothesis through research etc. Upon finding that there is no evidence to support this assertion I would then determine that the hypothesis was incorrect. After enough scientists do likewise, it becomes scientific consensus. This would then continue to be the scientific consensus until someone presents positive evidence contradicting this scientific fact.

[Tacenda]

Joseph Smith was not of the leisure class. Somehow I doubt after a day's hard labour clearing land, digging, building a home farming, etc,etc, he just sat around at night at loose ends looking for something to do.

He had many years to put this together, I know the church gives only a few months, but in actuality it could have been on his mind and in the works for years.  And I'm still able to see it as inspirational. 

[Danzo]

This is a demonstrably false assertion. Science uses an "absence of evidence" to disprove hypotheses fairly consistently. That's how science works. You hypothesize, you experiment, then based on the results of your experiment you reach a determination based on the evidence which is sometimes manifested as an absence of evidence. The only time you overturn scientific consensus is with positive evidence, otherwise, consensus based on the absence of evidence stands. For example, I could currently hypothesize that there are still dinosaurs alive on the earth. I can test this hypothesis through research etc. Upon finding that there is no evidence to support this assertion I would then determine that the hypothesis was incorrect. After enough scientists do likewise, it becomes scientific consensus. This would then continue to be the scientific consensus until someone presents positive evidence contradicting this scientific fact.

 

The scientists originally said there were no dinosaurs on the earth based on lack of evidence.

 

They said this while they were eating chicken.  

[why me]

Joseph was not that old when he was hatching the book of Mormon. I find it difficult to believe that he spent his teen years making up the book of Mormon story. Where did he write it? I think that people need to be careful with the information that they get from the internet. He would need thousands of pages of paper and several feathered pens and ink wells. And where was emma if Joseph wrote it?

[Tacenda]

Joseph was not that old when he was hatching the book of Mormon. I find it difficult to believe that he spent his teen years making up the book of Mormon story. Where did he write it? I think that people need to be careful with the information that they get from the internet. He would need thousands of pages of paper and several feathered pens and ink wells. And where was emma if Joseph wrote it?

Inspiration somewhat like the BoA perhaps?  Thoughts put down on paper later?  With the help of his scribes. 

[bjw]

Why Me,

1. JS wanted answers for everyone and felt he had a kinder one...Universalism. He wanted to share the idea of progression and levels, Swedenborg and Masonry.

2. In JS's day, writing was a lot more poetic, for lack of a better term, then now. They lived in a much slower environment with less distraction, so plenty of time and creativity to write. And it was an age where those in the US were immigrants and came from no freedom in religion, so why not start a new religion and add more scripture in the free land.

All good reasons I guess, and very possible it is inspired work.

I have often been wondering what accounts for the similarities between Mormonism and Swedenborg. I am a Mason and I joined the Martinist Order 2 years ago and you study the theology of Swedenborg, St. Martin, and Pasquall. I've noticed some things that are similar, such as the 3 levels of heaven, words given to pass sentinels, hand signs, praying around altar, and some similarity to the temple clothing but I wont mention that here. A lot of it builds on blue lodge masonry but I couldn't help noticing the similarities with Mormonism. I wonder if there is a way to connect them to a common source, maybe even an ancient one?

[Tacenda]

I have often been wondering what accounts for the similarities between Mormonism and Swedenborg. I am a Mason and I joined the Martinist Order 2 years ago and you study the theology of Swedenborg, St. Martin, and Pasquall. I've noticed some things that are similar, such as the 3 levels of heaven, words given to pass sentinels, hand signs, praying around altar, and some similarity to the temple clothing but I wont mention that here. A lot of it builds on blue lodge masonry but I couldn't help noticing the similarities with Mormonism. I wonder if there is a way to connect them to a common source, maybe even an ancient one?

I know that some scholars on this board would think so, Volgadon would be a good one to discuss this with.  All I've done is just live on the internet for far too long and Why Me probably thinks so too. 

Edited April 17, 2014 by Tacenda

[omni]

Okay. Completely separate question then that didn't seem to be part of the last one I guess...

Since were on this topic of horse bones and carbon dating, I was curious if you knew of any finds/papers where they found horse bones in the Americas that when Carbon dated places them back to BOM times? I don't ask for salvation reasons or anything and am not basing my belief in the BOM on it, I'm just curious and you are pretty well read of the posters here. Thanks in advance.

 

Brian, 

 

That's not very kind of you to ask him to produce something that doesn't exist.   

Edited April 17, 2014 by omni

[wenglund]

Brian, 

 

That's not very kind of you to ask him to produce something that doesn't exist.   

 

I don't know about it not being "kind,", but it is certainly is assinine to repeatedly ask someone for something about which he hasn't made a claim and doesn't view as pertinent.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Brian 2.0]

If I had laid claim to horse bones and carbon dating, and were I (as opposed to you) to think it pertinent to coming to Christ and becoming like him, I would let you know.

I don't know about it not being "kind,", but it is certainly is assinine to repeatedly ask someone for something about which he hasn't made a claim and doesn't view as pertinent.

I actually didn't ask the initial question, that was frank_jessop, but I did feel in his frustration when he got into the "that didn't answer the question" "yes it did" thing.

Your answer, all of your answers still has two readings:

1) You don't know of any evidence for it, but even if I did, you would only share it if you felt it pertinent to coming to Christ

2) You DO know of evidence for it, but since I don't find it pertinent to coming to Christ you're not sharing it.

Seeing that both these options are open, I find it hard to understand how you have fully answered the question of "do you know of aany evidence for..."

You don't need to answer the question if you don't find it pertinent, that's totally your choice, as you're not making the claim in the first place.