Nyt's "growing Role For Women"

[Senator]

And where is she in the godhead?

 

Right next to the Father. 

 

Are you saying she's not a God?

[Bikeemikey]

Right next to the Father.

Are you saying she's not a God?

Sure sounds like he is.

[mtomm]

How can she not be?  Just because we don't think of her in that terms because she is never mentioned I think the temple covenants pretty much make HF and HM "one." How do you then separate them?

[readstoomuch]

i would have to agree. the only answer that i have about why we pray to the father, is that christ did so, setting an example for us.

[why me]

Right next to the Father. 

 

Are you saying she's not a God?

So we have four members of the god head? I can't find that in the manual. Can you give me a CFR?

[why me]

How can she not be?  Just because we don't think of her in that terms because she is never mentioned I think the temple covenants pretty much make HF and HM "one." How do you then separate them?

I think that this comes down to the lds perception of the trinity. We would need to separate her just as we have three distinct members of the godhead. Heavenly Mother would need to be distinct from our Heavenly father since she has her own body. Thus, we would have four members of the godhead. Why aren't the lds encouraged to pray to her?

 

The above is not a rhetorical question. To believe that the hardcore mormon feminists will be satisfied with just bringing their perception of equality to the lds women is probably wrong. In the future they will also be calling for more of a role for Heavenly Mother, ie, to make it possible to pray to her with official church approval. 

Edited March 7, 2014 by why me

[Calm]

In priesthood, the GAs are studied, basically the presidents of the church. And one reason for this is because of the priesthood and because of revelation. I just don't think that the relief society presidents would carry much weight. But it would be great to read what they once wrote. My guess is that they wrote about women's issues in the church and their gender roles.

Looks like the Church thinks it is appropriate for General RS Presidents to be listen to by both women and men:

https://www.lds.org/church/news/sister-burton-shares-nine-ways-to-draw-closer-to-god?lang=eng

Greater weight will come with greater exposure, something the Church seems intent on. Not much talk on women's issues and their gender roles, either.

Edited March 7, 2014 by calmoriah

[why me]

Looks like the Church thinks it is appropriate for General RS Presidents to be listen to by both women and men:

https://www.lds.org/church/news/sister-burton-shares-nine-ways-to-draw-closer-to-god?lang=eng

Greater weight will come with greater exposure, something the Church seems intent on. Not much talk on women's issues and their gender roles, either.

It was broadcast to the young adults but not to the general church membership. We also need to remember that such talks have been given in General Conference by relief society presidents etc. I do think that this broadcast should be in the Liahona or the Ensign and discussed in priesthood. Then, we are on the road to change.

[Calm]

It was broadcast to the young adults but not to the general church membership. We also need to remember that such talks have been given in General Conference by relief society presidents etc. I do think that this broadcast should be in the Liahona or the Ensign and discussed in priesthood. Then, we are on the road to change.

Changing the goal posts much?

We have here a talk given to men and women worldwide. We have a talk about general church principles not tied to gender.

It is a talk that could just as easily come from a man save for the personal story about herself...that can still easily be generalised by a man.

[why me]

Changing the goal posts much?

We have here a talk given to men and women worldwide. We have a talk about general church principles not tied to gender.

It is a talk that could just as easily come from a man save for the personal story about herself...that can still easily be generalised by a man.

To my recollection she did not quote any past relief society presidents. But she did quote from male GAs. Like I said I think that this talk should be discussed in priesthood and in relief society. In fact, both should watch the talk and have a discussion afterwards. But will it happen? Maybe not. But lets hope so.

 

It is also true that this talk was not tied to any gender per se. However we do have this:

 

7. Be prepared to move forward in faith.

Recalling when she and her husband were engaged and making plans for the future, Sister Burton said when faced with questions about school and what career to pursue, or wondering when they should start a family, they turned to counsel given by a living prophet who taught they could have children while they were getting an education and work all at the same time.

“We moved forward in faith,” she said. “It wasn’t easy. My husband ended up working three part-time jobs while he was going to school to allow me to begin my new career as a mother and nurturer. That course was in direct opposition to the logic of the world, even at that time. Looking back, we can now see how taking those steps of faith has resulted in eternal blessings, blessings we might have forfeited had we not heeded the voice of the Spirit through the Lord’s chosen prophet.”

 

What message will the young adult women be getting from that message?

[why me]

Cal,

 

what do you think of this?

 

http://whatwomenknow.org/all_are_alike/

 

Isn't this the power of the internet to organize people? My point is rather simple: it seems that members are forgetting that the church is revelatory and inspirational. Yet, it seems that more and more members are claiming to act on behalf of god in dictating what the church should do.

[Calm]

To my recollection she did not quote any past relief society presidents. But she did quote from male GAs. Like I said I think that this talk should be discussed in priesthood and in relief society. In fact, both should watch the talk and have a discussion afterwards. But will it happen? Maybe not. But lets hope so.

 

It is also true that this talk was not tied to any gender per se. However we do have this:

 

7. Be prepared to move forward in faith.Recalling when she and her husband were engaged and making plans for the future, Sister Burton said when faced with questions about school and what career to pursue, or wondering when they should start a family, they turned to counsel given by a living prophet who taught they could have children while they were getting an education and work all at the same time.

“We moved forward in faith,” she said. “It wasn’t easy. My husband ended up working three part-time jobs while he was going to school to allow me to begin my new career as a mother and nurturer. That course was in direct opposition to the logic of the world, even at that time. Looking back, we can now see how taking those steps of faith has resulted in eternal blessings, blessings we might have forfeited had we not heeded the voice of the Spirit through the Lord’s chosen prophet.”

 

What message will the young adult women be getting from that message?

What message will the young men be getting from it?

[Calm]

Cal,

 

what do you think of this?

 

http://whatwomenknow.org/all_are_alike/

 

Isn't this the power of the internet to organize people? My point is rather simple: it seems that members are forgetting that the church is revelatory and inspirational. Yet, it seems that more and more members are claiming to act on behalf of god in dictating what the church should do.

Internet is good and bad, just like most tools men has.

[MiserereNobis]

I think that this comes down to the lds perception of the trinity. We would need to separate her just as we have three distinct members of the godhead. Heavenly Mother would need to be distinct from our Heavenly father since she has her own body. Thus, we would have four members of the godhead. Why aren't the lds encouraged to pray to her?

 

I think this can solve the LDS-Trinity issue.  Just say you believe in the quadrinity and start calling yourselves quadrinitarians.  But wait... if Jesus has a spouse who is also a god, that would make 5, so you would have to be quintinitarians, yes?

[Buckeye]

I think this can solve the LDS-Trinity issue.  Just say you believe in the quadrinity and start calling yourselves quadrinitarians.  But wait... if Jesus has a spouse who is also a god, that would make 5, so you would have to be quintinitarians, yes?

 

The Holy Ghost may also have a spouse too.  So, +1

 

But since the HG doesn't yet have a body it's just sort of a furture spouse whose promised to meet him in mortality some day.  So, +1/2

 

Oh, and God is really Adam.  So, +1/2 - 1

 

And does that make Eve Heavenly Mother?  So, +1/2 - 2

 

By my calculation we are 3.5-itarians.  Pretty close to trinitarians, but not quite.  QED.

[why me]

What message will the young men be getting from it?

Men should be working hard and women should be having a career in the home. Not very liberating for the men and for the women.

[why me]

I think this can solve the LDS-Trinity issue.  Just say you believe in the quadrinity and start calling yourselves quadrinitarians.  But wait... if Jesus has a spouse who is also a god, that would make 5, so you would have to be quintinitarians, yes?

My point was that the more radical mormon feminists will not be happy with equality in the church unless they get equality in the god head. Thus, a more important role for heavenly mother. I can see this train a coming down the tracks.

[Calm]

Men should be working hard and women should be having a career in the home. Not very liberating for the men and for the women.

Iow, the message is for both equally.

[Bikeemikey]

I think this can solve the LDS-Trinity issue. Just say you believe in the quadrinity and start calling yourselves quadrinitarians. But wait... if Jesus has a spouse who is also a god, that would make 5, so you would have to be quintinitarians, yes?

Awesome!! But wait, what about Jesus' babies? There is no limit :-)

[Bikeemikey]

My point was that the more radical mormon feminists will not be happy with equality in the church unless they get equality in the god head. Thus, a more important role for heavenly mother. I can see this train a coming down the tracks.

And how is equality in the godhead a problem if it moves us closer to the reality of the godhead?

Are you saying the female divine is less equal in the godhead than the male divine?

That would be contrary to the family proclamation would it not?

[why me]

And how is equality in the godhead a problem if it moves us closer to the reality of the godhead?

Are you saying the female divine is less equal in the godhead than the male divine?

That would be contrary to the family proclamation would it not?

What I am saying is that the mormon feminists would be fighting for heavenly mother to have more of a say in earthly affairs. For example, praying to heavenly mother...asking her to answer prayers etc. Or maybe to intercede with her husband.

 

Maybe we can have opening prayers to heavenly father or to heavenly mother in church. Closing prayers too. Why not? Anything goes when it comes to making people happy.

[MiserereNobis]

What I am saying is that the mormon feminists would be fighting for heavenly mother to have more of a say in earthly affairs. For example, praying to heavenly mother...asking her to answer prayers etc. Or maybe to intercede with her husband.

 

Maybe we can have opening prayers to heavenly father or to heavenly mother in church. Closing prayers too. Why not? Anything goes when it comes to making people happy.

 

I wonder if LDS feminists who think this way might have a sympathetic draw towards the Blessed Virgin Mary.  From my point-of-view as a Catholic, a desire to pray to a "Heavenly Mother" would be a side-tracked desire, perhaps initially planted by the Holy Spirit, to ask the Blessed Virgin to intercede with Her Son.

 

It was the Blessed Virgin Mary, particularly as Our Lady of Guadalupe, who brought me into the Catholic Church.  She is a fount of mercy, compassion, and love, and She has a unique relationship to God that allows Her to intercede for us, pray for us, plead for us and on our behalf.  I love the Hail Holy Queen prayer (Salve, Regina in Latin).  It ends:  O clemens, o pia, o dulcis Virgo Maria.  O clement, o loving, o sweet Virgin Mary.  Here is that part of the prayer as put to music by Mozart:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYbTidHYSxo

 

I would to God that all could have conscious understanding and experience of the depth of the Blessed Virgin Mary's love for us and Her indispensable role in our salvation.

 

Ave, Maria, gracia plena.

 

 

ETA:  Personally, with my traditional bent, I love the traditional Gregorian chant of the "Salve, Regina" prayer.  Here is a monastic choir chanting it.  It is only 2:00 long, so please take a listen (it even has the "holy echo" that the chant schola that I am in always tries to achieve).  The "O clemens" part, which is always so moving for me, begins at 1:20

 

 

Thank you, LDS friends, for indulging this Catholic's love of the Blessed Virgin Mary on your discussion board

Edited March 8, 2014 by MiserereNobis

[MiserereNobis]

oops, duplicate deleted.

Edited March 8, 2014 by MiserereNobis

[Tiki]

I wonder if LDS feminists who think this way might have a sympathetic draw towards the Blessed Virgin Mary.  From my point-of-view as a Catholic, a desire to pray to a "Heavenly Mother" would be a side-tracked desire, perhaps initially planted by the Holy Spirit, to ask the Blessed Virgin to intercede with Her Son.

 

It was the Blessed Virgin Mary, particularly as Our Lady of Guadalupe, who brought me into the Catholic Church.  She is a fount of mercy, compassion, and love, and She has a unique relationship to God that allows Her to intercede for us, pray for us, plead for us and on our behalf.  I love the Hail Holy Queen prayer (Salve, Regina in Latin).  It ends:  O clemens, o pia, o dulcis Virgo Maria.  O clement, o loving, o sweet Virgin Mary.  Here is that part of the prayer as put to music by Mozart:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYbTidHYSxo

 

I would to God that all could have conscious understanding and experience of the depth of the Blessed Virgin Mary's love for us and Her indispensable role in our salvation.

 

Ave, Maria, gracia plena.

 

 

ETA:  Personally, with my traditional bent, I love the traditional Gregorian chant of the "Salve, Regina" prayer.  Here is a monastic choir chanting it.  It is only 2:00 long, so please take a listen (it even has the "holy echo" that the chant schola that I am in always tries to achieve).  The "O clemens" part, which is always so moving for me, begins at 1:20

 

 

Thank you, LDS friends, for indulging this Catholic's love of the Blessed Virgin Mary on your discussion board

Then you should be very interested to know what The Book of Mormon mentions about the Mother of our Lord, specifically that her name was revealed to ancient American Prophets:

Mosiah 3:8

8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.

Alma 7:10

10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

And she was seen in vision by the Prophet Nephi some 600 years, B.C. Who describer her appearance in respectful and glowing terms:

1 Nephi 11:13

13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.

1 Nephi 11:15

15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.

1 Nephi 11:18

18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.

1 Nephi 11:20

20 And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms.

[MiserereNobis]

Then you should be very interested to know what The Book of Mormon mentions about the Mother of our Lord, specifically that her name was revealed to ancient American Prophets:

 

Alma 7:10

10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

 

1 Nephi 11:15

15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.

 

She is a precious vessel and most beautiful and fair indeed

 

Thank you for sharing those Book of Mormon verses about Her.

 

Is the Virgin Mary ever depicted in art in LDS chapels and/or temples?  I don't remember seeing her in the chapels I have been in, which are admittedly few, and I can perhaps understand why her depiction might be limited because of the huge focus Catholicism (and Orthodoxy -- Theotokos) place on Her and Her image, but I'm wondering if here and there a picture of Her might be found.

 

Anyone on the board have a picture of Her in their home?

 

She's the first thing you see when you open my door

Edited March 9, 2014 by MiserereNobis