Nyt's "growing Role For Women"

[Bikeemikey]

Probably not. Also there is a problem with such an idea. For the presidents of the church we have people who basically receive revelation for the entire church. The relief society presidents have no such power. And this creates a problem if we were to study the ideas of these women. Basically, their opinions are ideas and ideas only and no revelation for the entire church. Also, we may not have enough teachings from these women. Who wrote down what they said? Did they save their talks to the relief society? Probably not. But what we do have are several brave women who led women to do great things for the lds community. The bottom line is that they did not mislead the sisters.

Of course relief society president is empowered to receive revelation on behalf of the entire relief society.

[wenglund]

I don't understand what the problem is with what I am saying.

 

Exactly.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[juliann]

I am all in favor of the priesthood having to study the teachings of relief society presidents for one year as they study the prophets of the church. The priesthood can study a different relief society president each year. I have no problem with it at all. But i don't see it happening anytime soon. Maybe the women and the men of the church can write salt lake about it. If enough members write, it just may happen.

 

You mean like this?  The church will benefit as “men’s vision of the capacity of women becomes more complete,” Pres. Linda K. Burton.

 

Why Me, you aren't giving out the "women have their place" vibe that is so typical as you give opposing opinion ....and that is a delicate line to walk.  I think the points you raise are typical misgivings that our culture has fostered. And I think it is exactly why Pres. Burton spoke out. She was so bold that I have been waiting for a correction or clarification and it hasn't come so this may be our first venture into living out the new vision. Are we going to expand our vision of the capacity of women...or remain in the traditional mindset that limits and confines half of the church's population.

[juliann]

Of course relief society president is empowered to receive revelation on behalf of the entire relief society.

The church will benefit as “men’s vision of the capacity of women becomes more complete,”  President Linda K. Burton

 

Hmm, can we split revelation like that? Are women on an island that does not intersect with husbands or sons?

[Bikeemikey]

The church will benefit as “men’s vision of the capacity of women becomes more complete,”  President Linda K. Burton

 

Hmm, can we split revelation like that? Are women on an island that does not intersect with husbands or sons?

Oh a think women can receive revelation well beyond the relief society; my comment was aiming at a much lower mark - that a women could receive revelation at all.

[wenglund]

Are we going to expand our vision of the capacity of women...or remain in the traditional mindset that limits and confines half of the church's population.

 

As intimated in an earlier post, many of the admirable women I have known and learned from, and who I believe have an elevated view of the gospel, haven't, and still don't, view themselves as "confined." So, why should I?

 

If that makes me non-traditional, then I can live with that.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

[firepatch36]

But much of what the GAs say is for both genders. The priesthood manual can be for both genders because many of the ideas in them are general, for all members of the church and not for one specific gender identity.

 

Why can't the priesthood discuss something that is more specific for women? Don't women discuss the priesthood in Relief Society? If the lesson is on being a good parent and has more quotes on being a mother than a father, why would that make it unteachable in priesthood? In the talks I've read from the Relief Society sessions, I didn't feel like it wasn't applicable to me as a man. 

[why me]

Why can't the priesthood discuss something that is more specific for women? Don't women discuss the priesthood in Relief Society? If the lesson is on being a good parent and has more quotes on being a mother than a father, why would that make it unteachable in priesthood? In the talks I've read from the Relief Society sessions, I didn't feel like it wasn't applicable to me as a man. 

I remember back in the 70's when the relief society was basically different from what it was today. Women seemed to have interesting lessons about various of things. I envied them. I thought that the men could learn well from their lessons. However, we seem to be dealing with something different today. Now there seems to be a gender divide and this divide in internet inspired.

 

Sure we can have the priesthood study from new manuals about the teachings of relief society presidents. I have no problem with this at all. But I don't see it happening anytime soon. Here is what I think needs to happen. The general authority message in the beginning of the ensign will need to start with having articles by women in  GA leadership positions in salt lake: young women's presidents, relief society presidents both past and present. And then have this message also become the home teaching message. Then, we will see a small change. But as long as it is the priesthood and only the priesthood that has the say for the church, we will always have a problem that is being discussed on this thread.

 

Slow and steady wins the race.

[why me]

You mean like this?  The church will benefit as “men’s vision of the capacity of women becomes more complete,” Pres. Linda K. Burton.

 

Why Me, you aren't giving out the "women have their place" vibe that is so typical as you give opposing opinion ....and that is a delicate line to walk.  I think the points you raise are typical misgivings that our culture has fostered. And I think it is exactly why Pres. Burton spoke out. She was so bold that I have been waiting for a correction or clarification and it hasn't come so this may be our first venture into living out the new vision. Are we going to expand our vision of the capacity of women...or remain in the traditional mindset that limits and confines half of the church's population.

I think that change will happen when Linda K. Burton can have the message page in the ensign or write a GA article in the ensign that is for the entire church and not just about  and for women or girls and their role in the church. And then have this article discussed in priesthood and in relief society. Then, changes will occur in the mentality of many members both men and women.

[juliann]

I think that change will happen when Linda K. Burton can have the message page in the ensign or write a GA article in the ensign that is for the entire church and not just about  and for women or girls and their role in the church. And then have this article discussed in priesthood and in relief society. Then, changes will occur in the mentality of many members both men and women.

 

It is the bishop who assigns the Ensign article slots. After yet another lesson directed to priesthood holders, I told him that we needed to follow up on all the women are so special stuff and use conference talks from them once in awhile. He assigned women's talks for the next two lessons.  The priesthood got it too.  Women talk about women and men talk about men. As Bluebell pointed out, it is a meaningless distinction when women are expected to read themselves into everything presented to men.

 

So go ask your bishop for women's talks. That is where we need to start, on the local level.

[Calm]

"Now there seems to be a gender divide and this divide in internet inspired."

Internet emphasised but not solely internet inspired. It was there before the Internet.

Edited March 4, 2014 by calmoriah

[EllenMaksoud]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/us/a-growing-role-for-mormon-women.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=tw-nytimes&_r=1

 

This is an excellent ..and long...article.  And the most surprising quote is from Pres. Burton of the Relief Society...

 

I think It was a very fair and even sympathetic treatment.

I also liked this.  It states the need while giving credit where credit is due.

I actually got in a very sharp conflict this week end with a Sister Missionary on Facebook over this issue.  She banned me !

 

The very idea that a Woman would make self depricative statements about herself in regards to men, is just so offensive to me I can not hold my words. I have only been around the church for 3 years but in that time it has been easy to see that the relationship between men and women is and must be complementary.

 

A man told me tonight that the relationship between men and women is like peanut butter and jelly. We go together. We can not have a PBJS with out both!

 

I'm 67 and will not have the benefit of a mate again, but if I did, I would not be kneeling at his feet. As one speaker recently said, " The oxen team can pull more if both work together".

 

This idea that Women are somehow less than men smacks of Surah 4:34 in the Qur'an. If any man wishes to hang that on me, I hope he can shoot well. 

[Gray]

I actually got in a very sharp conflict this week end with a Sister Missionary on Facebook over this issue.  She banned me !

 

The very idea that a Woman would make self depricative statements about herself in regards to men, is just so offensive to me I can not hold my words. I have only been around the church for 3 years but in that time it has been easy to see that the relationship between men and women is and must be complementary.

 

A man told me tonight that the relationship between men and women is like peanut butter and jelly. We go together. We can not have a PBJS with out both!

 

I'm 67 and will not have the benefit of a mate again, but if I did, I would not be kneeling at his feet. As one speaker recently said, " The oxen team can pull more if both work together".

 

This idea that Women are somehow less than men smacks of Surah 4:34 in the Qur'an. If any man wishes to hang that on me, I hope he can shoot well. 

 

Unfortunately men try to make up for the unequal position of women by going the opposite direction and claiming that they are inferior to their wives. I don't think women need to be put up on a pedestal. Much better to treat both genders equally. Some men make great nurturers. Some women are great leaders. It seems a shame place artificial limits on either gender based on the number of X chromosomes we have.

[EllenMaksoud]

Unfortunately men try to make up for the unequal position of women by going the opposite direction and claiming that they are inferior to their wives. I don't think women need to be put up on a pedestal. Much better to treat both genders equally. Some men make great nurturers. Some women are great leaders. It seems a shame place artificial limits on either gender based on the number of X chromosomes we have.

It's frustrating that we have to have someone better than the other.  And, at times I am no lady. In the absence of a man, I can change my own flats and put on the chains too, however I do not do engine work.

 

And of course there is that single passage in the OT that says, "Your desire shall be to your husband and he will rule over you". Genesis 3:16. And I don't have an issue with it. I've just had some men in my life that were schlubs. Amazingly, since I have been Mormon, I have met some very nice men.

 

I worked for a long time, and mostly had men working for me. I learned that there is leadership and dictatorship. And as Muslim, some man seemed to always be waving Surah 4:34 in my face. (Yeah, the wife beating one)

 

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

[Tacenda]

It's frustrating that we have to have someone better than the other. And, at times I am no lady. In the absence of a man, I can change my own flats and put on the chains too, however I do not do engine work.

And of course there is that single passage in the OT that says, "Your desire shall be to your husband and he will rule over you". Genesis 3:16. And I don't have an issue with it. I've just had some men in my life that were schlubs. Amazingly, since I have been Mormon, I have met some very nice men.

I worked for a long time, and mostly had men working for me. I learned that there is leadership and dictatorship. And as Muslim, some man seemed to always be waving Surah 4:34 in my face. (Yeah, the wife beating one)

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

This sickens me. Religion is man made to have control over, fill in the blank, and it's time people realize this. Too much abuse, death and strife come from religion. Relationship with Diety is where it's at. There is some crazy stuff happening in the name of God spouted in religion. That's why I look at scripture as not all true, because men wrote it. And I'm maybe bias because I'm a woman but see the huge discrepancy in not many women authors anywhere in scripture. It's because of religion and men using it for power that I will never join a religious institution again.

[bluebell]

It's because of religion and men using it for power that I will never join a religious institution again.

 

So are you leaving the one you are currently affiliated with then?  

[wenglund]

This sickens me. Religion is man made to have control over, fill in the blank, and it's time people realize this. Too much abuse, death and strife come from religion. Relationship with Diety is where it's at. There is some crazy stuff happening in the name of God spouted in religion. That's why I look at scripture as not all true, because men wrote it. And I'm maybe bias because I'm a woman but see the huge discrepancy in not many women authors anywhere in scripture. It's because of religion and men using it for power that I will never join a religious institution again.

 

People's perception of religion, as well as how they view men and women, may often reflect their own personal prejudices, dispositions, and priorities.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited March 4, 2014 by wenglund

[EllenMaksoud]

Unfortunately men try to make up for the unequal position of women by going the opposite direction and claiming that they are inferior to their wives. I don't think women need to be put up on a pedestal. Much better to treat both genders equally. Some men make great nurturers. Some women are great leaders. It seems a shame place artificial limits on either gender based on the number of X chromosomes we have.

My feelings around men are so clouded as to be undependable.  This morning I was on sort of a rant about my being able to do anything a man can do, and this evening found myself longing for a man to help me with putting the travel rack on my car.   As I ate my words, I struggled with the thing until I think it is right , but I will be asking the man who sold it to me if it is correctly installed before I feel happy about it.

[EllenMaksoud]

This sickens me. Religion is man made to have control over, fill in the blank, and it's time people realize this. Too much abuse, death and strife come from religion. Relationship with Diety is where it's at. There is some crazy stuff happening in the name of God spouted in religion. That's why I look at scripture as not all true, because men wrote it. And I'm maybe bias because I'm a woman but see the huge discrepancy in not many women authors anywhere in scripture. It's because of religion and men using it for power that I will never join a religious institution again.

Don't get hasty, OK. In my experience Mormon men are the best I have ever been in contact with, generally speaking.  I discovered this 40 years too late.

[why me]

"Now there seems to be a gender divide and this divide in internet inspired."

Internet emphasised but not solely internet inspired. It was there before the Internet.

I think that it is internet inspired because the internet as an identity tool can certainly bring like minded people together. This is what seems to be happening when it comes to the ordain women movement. They may not have a huge following but they can certainly make it seem as if they do. The social media spreads the message, brings people together into organizations, and forms vehicles for action. I think that the feminist mormon movement is internet inspired and it does seem to be critiquing patriarchy in the lds church. What I see as a problem is that people begin to pressure the church leadership to change their direction and this pressure can be local or church wide. For example, Juliann would like us to suggest to the bishop to have more women sponsored articles for discussion. But the question remains then about who is responsible for making decisions in the ward: members' pressure or the bishop?

[why me]

This sickens me. Religion is man made to have control over, fill in the blank, and it's time people realize this. Too much abuse, death and strife come from religion. Relationship with Diety is where it's at. There is some crazy stuff happening in the name of God spouted in religion. That's why I look at scripture as not all true, because men wrote it. And I'm maybe bias because I'm a woman but see the huge discrepancy in not many women authors anywhere in scripture. It's because of religion and men using it for power that I will never join a religious institution again.

I have a hard time understanding this post. Are you saying that the bible is false because it is mainly written by men? And what exactly is a relationship with deity? God is male, likewise for christ and the holy ghost.

[Calm]

. The social media spreads the message, brings people together into organizations, and forms vehicles for action. I think that the feminist mormon movement is internet inspired and it does seem to be critiquing patriarchy in the lds church.?

Reality is against you. You are apparently not aware of groups that formed around the time of the ERA, for example. I knew personally in my Canadian stake of several women who were activists and had been long before we got up there. The "social media" they used were books and telephones and family reunions and discussions at get togethers face to face.

Then there was the time in our history where the mainstream Mormon women were the Mormon feminists, pushing for the vote and the right to practice their religion freely, including plural marriage. They managed social medial networking quite well without even a phone or TV at hand.

How do you think politics manage to exist before the past few decades?

See Mormons for ERA and Sonja Johnson as the most obvious examples.

Edited March 5, 2014 by calmoriah

[Senator]

 God is male

 

God the Father? Yes, he's male.

 

However, His equal, God the Mother, is female.

[why me]

Reality is against you. You are apparently not aware of groups that formed around the time of the ERA, for example. I knew personally in my Canadian stake of several women who were activists and had been long before we got up there. The "social media" they used were books and telephones and family reunions and discussions at get togethers face to face.

See Mormons for ERA and Sonja Johnson as the most obvious examples.

I remember sonja johnson very well. And we all know what happened to her. However, she was in favor of the era amendment and against the church's stance on it and not necessarily focusing on women and priesthood and more power for women in the church. The equal rights amendment was an amendment for all women. What I see today with mormon feminists is a concentration on the lds church, attempting to pressure it to change church policy. It is very church specific. And they organize via the internet.

 

I still don't quite understand what exactly is a mormon feminist since they seem to focus solely on the lds church and not on national policies.

[why me]

God the Father? Yes, he's male.

 

However, His equal, God the Mother, is female.

And where is she in the godhead?