Women Buys All The Indecent T-Shirts In Orem Store Mall.

[thesometimesaint]

That's not entirely true.  While students do not give up their First Amendment rights when at school, those rights are balanced against the school's interests in good discipline, order and maintaining an atmosphere conducive to education, or at least one that does not distract from that goal.  Try wearing clothing heavily associated with gangs to school.  I think a students would have a hard time arguing they have a First Amendment right to wear revealing, provocative, and potentially distracting clothing.  (I make no comment on whether I think bare shoulders is revealing, provocatig, and potentially distracting.)

 

The best response to offensive clothing is not the banning of the clothing. Calling attention to it merely make it more appealing to the less mature. I'm at the point in my life where I wear clothes to keep warm and not scare the public not because some school rule or busy body says I have to.

 

BTW I was in the US military and went to BYU. I never had any problem with the requirements of either.

[Scott Lloyd]

The logistics may indeed have prevented a more sensible solution. When my daughter graduated a couple years ago, the senior yearbook photos were taken in August, just before school started. But it was still possible to take a make up photo, primarily but not exclusively for those who missed the original opportunity, as late as January. I know because that's when my daughter had her photo taken. I recognize that the logistics vary from school to school, publisher to publisher, and photographer to photographer. But at my daughter's school, it would have been quite easy to review photos and give a second chance, presumably at the student's expense, before a later deadline.

It's entirely possile that the school made an actual decision to edit and not allow for a retake because of logistics. More likely, I suspect the option of a retake was never actually considered. That even though there may have been time, the problem wasn't really noticed or discussed, and someone then just went ahead with the editing. At the end of the day, so what? High school year book photos are like prom, they lose all meaning after graduation, when life really begins.

I'm still not seeing the big mess Thinking believes has been caused here.

So the school gets a national reputation for sticking to its standards. If I were an administrator, teacher, student or parent of a student at the school, I would think that a good thing.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Rain]

And I'll say again: I don't see all that big of a mess here.

And I'll say again, you don't know what the logistics of the production process are. There may not have been time or opportunity to do what you suggest.

I recall clearly from my days on the high school yearbook staff that we had to produce the book in sections, each with its individual deadline, and the book was sent to press long before the school year ended.

Hijack: was it common to have those pages first? We moved here in December and my children are not in the jr high or high school yearbook. I was rather frustrated with this since in our old jr high we got kids in that came as late as April.

[Scott Lloyd]

You are assuming that they knowingly did not follow the rules. Two people can read the same rule and interpret it differently.

So if someone is so obtuse as to not comprehend rules that were clearly spelled out in advance, the remedy is to edit his/her photo prior to publication, which potential remedy was also spelled out beforehand.

The school has done nothing nefarious or sinister here.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Rain]

So you're saying it takes longer for a technician to Photoshop a photo than it does to contact somebody's parents, wait for a response, schedule a reshoot or wait for someone to provide a replacement?

Nope. Doesn't compute.

I'm not a professional editor, but I wouldn't hesitate to edit when given the choice to do that or contact parents and my editing would be done by the paint program which would make much longer to make look nice. I have contacted parents and it is a huge pain and sometimes nearly impossible.

[Scott Lloyd]

Hijack: was it common to have those pages first? We moved here in December and my children are not in the jr high or high school yearbook. I was rather frustrated with this since in our old jr high we got kids in that came as late as April.

Depends on the school, I suppose.

I attended high school in the early '70s, and we shot the individual yearbook photos very early in the school year.

My son attends the same high school today, and he just told me they shoot the photos before the school year starts.

[Garden Girl]

My graduating hight school class had a group photo of the entire class in the yearbook.  One kid thought it would be funny to make a well known offensive gesture in the photo.  It was almost unnoticable in such a large photo, but the school made sure everyone saw it when it just whited it out.  So in a large multi color photo, the first thing anyone would see was a whited out middle finger.

 

Whatever possessed the school to think that they could take a group photo without some immature idiotic boy or girl from doing something like an offensive gesture and ruining the photo???  There's always at least one...

 

GG

[seriously honestly]

However, back to my actual question.

 

I'm assuming that we are to teach our kids that each choice has a consequence and that while we can choose our actions, we then don't have the right to complain about the consequences of our actions when they come to pass.

 

So assuming that is one of the goals of a school, if a school tells the students that pictures not following the dress code will be edited-what should the school do when students choose not to follow the dress code?

 

 

 

I don't think this would have been that big of a deal if the school had followed through on every picture they deemed immodest, and not just half of them.

[seriously honestly]

What's the big mess here?  That the school has gotten some publicity for standing by certain standards?

 

They're getting publicity for not applying those standards equally

Edited May 29, 2014 by seriously honestly

[thatjimguy]

The store is also a teenybopper store and so, such images would provoke a response.

 

 Which is where the real problem  is going to take place. It is no different than everyone protesting heavy metal in the 80's or Marylin Manson in the 90's.

 

Kid  1   :  "I heard that some crazy parent went nuts at a pac sun store buying all the stuff she thought was too sexy.

 

kid 2     :  "I am going to buy some right now!"

 

****

 

 

Why do parents always fall for it in every generation? They just make it more appealling.

[changed]

Why do parents always fall for it in every generation? They just make it more appealling.

I think everyone needs a chance to be rebellious about something, part of the process of learning what good is, is rebelling against it & feeling that change in conscience and distance from the Spirit that happens when we do not choose the right.  We all sin, this is the plan of salvation, it seems a little sin is necessary for  us to learn?  IMO it's best to learn with little things (music, cloths), than with large things (sex, drugs)....

[bluebell]

However, back to my actual question.

 

I'm assuming that we are to teach our kids that each choice has a consequence and that while we can choose our actions, we then don't have the right to complain about the consequences of our actions when they come to pass.

 

So assuming that is one of the goals of a school, if a school tells the students that pictures not following the dress code will be edited-what should the school do when students choose not to follow the dress code?

 

 

 

I don't think this would have been that big of a deal if the school had followed through on every picture they deemed immodest, and not just half of them.

 

I agree that inconsistent editing is a problem worth noting.  I wonder if they had different people doing the editing.

[cinepro]

My graduating hight school class had a group photo of the entire class in the yearbook.  One kid thought it would be funny to make a well known offensive gesture in the photo.  It was almost unnoticable in such a large photo, but the school made sure everyone saw it when it just whited it out.  So in a large multi color photo, the first thing anyone would see was a whited out middle finger.

 

 

Did he go on to become the naked guy in the bleachers at the end of "Teen Wolf"?

[Scott Lloyd]

I agree that inconsistent editing is a problem worth noting. I wonder if they had different people doing the editing.

So the solution, then, is to tighten up on the enforcement, not repeal the standard.

Seems doable to me.

But if the task of editing all the non-compliant photos really is that unmanageable, just announce clearly next year that students who don't abide by the standards either will not have their photos shot in the first place or will have their photos left out of the yearbook.

I'm confident the instances of infraction would be reduced dramatically.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Yirgacheffe]

When I was on the yearbook staff we had almost that exact thing happen. Except it was a group shot of the golf team, and the kid's finger was extending downward as he held his golf club.

Our photographer used a gamma card to retouch the photo, painting out the kid's finger to blend it in with the golf club handle. (No Photoshop or even digital photography in those long ago days. )

This happened 2 or 3 years ago here, but it was a few of the kids in the photograph who did it, the school decided to not publish the group photo of the extra curricular group at all.  Hasn't happened again so far.

[Rain]

Thanks Scott.

[Tacenda]

I've done some thinking. I think I was just shocked at it, never had I seen a school do that before. It was surreal, didn't know that was even legal. But do agree, they were warned.

[sunstoned]

I've done some thinking. I think I was just shocked at it, never had I seen a school do that before. It was surreal, didn't know that was even legal. But do agree, they were warned.

You were not the only one who was shocked.  The Today's show hosts also seemed shocked, with one asking what country this school was in.  No one seemed to understand why a girl's tattoo was photoshopped out, and what the big deal was about bare shoulders.

[bluebell]

You were not the only one who was shocked.  The Today's show hosts also seemed shocked, with one asking what country this school was in.  No one seemed to understand why a girl's tattoo was photoshopped out, and what the big deal was about bare shoulders.

 

I'm not at all surprised.

 

These standards aren't limited to Utah or Mormon-centric areas.  My kids have been in schools in 4 states and every school they have attended has had almost the exact same dress code as the school in the article.  However, these standards certainly don't match the standards that t.v. embraces, or those of popular culture.  It's not surprising that a lot of people, especially people who don't have a lot of experience with public schools, would have a hard time getting past that.

[Tacenda]

I'm not at all surprised.

 

These standards aren't limited to Utah or Mormon-centric areas.  My kids have been in schools in 4 states and every school they have attended has had almost the exact same dress code as the school in the article.  However, these standards certainly don't match the standards that t.v. embraces, or those of popular culture.  It's not surprising that a lot of people, especially people who don't have a lot of experience with public schools, would have a hard time getting past that.

http://www.today.com/news/cover-controversy-utah-school-alters-girls-yearbook-photos-show-less-2D79730855

 

I just found it online after sunstoned informed me it was on this morning.  I guess the big hang up was the sleeve, because they were wondering what country Utah was in, so is it that weird?  Were the schools you or your kids attended outside of Utah, presenting in the dress code that you must wear sleeves? 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

http://www.today.com/news/cover-controversy-utah-school-alters-girls-yearbook-photos-show-less-2D79730855

 

I just found it online after sunstoned informed me it was on this morning.  I guess the big hang up was the sleeve, because they were wondering what country Utah was in, so is it that weird?  Were the schools you or your kids attended outside of Utah, presenting in the dress code that you must wear sleeves? 

Both high schools I attended in Texas had a two inch rule for shirt sleeves. Covering the entire shoulder appears to go beyond this, but not too much further.

[Yirgacheffe]

I'm not at all surprised.

 

These standards aren't limited to Utah or Mormon-centric areas.  My kids have been in schools in 4 states and every school they have attended has had almost the exact same dress code as the school in the article.  However, these standards certainly don't match the standards that t.v. embraces, or those of popular culture.  It's not surprising that a lot of people, especially people who don't have a lot of experience with public schools, would have a hard time getting past that.

In my experience in 3 states the dress codes are similar, with some odd things thrown in, in one school you were not allowed to wear leggings under shorts, no matter the length of the shorts, why in the world did this come up, why would anyone wear that?  My kids can't wear jackets in school, I would have hated that since I was always cold in school and wore a jacket all through middle and high school.  Some schools forbade ripped jeans others did not, the same with tank tops, if tank tops were allowed there were limits on how narrow the straps could be.  Never ever ran into a ban on bare shoulders though, the girl in the denim vest who had sleeves edited on to her picture would have never been questioned anywhere I attended school.  Honestly I think the Today people are dumbfounded by the bare shoulder thing, after all Jackie Kennedy was attending formal events, meeting with world leaders, in sleeveless dresses 50 years ago.

 

Tattoos are another story, while I really don't see any reason to edit them out, depending of course on the image, what just floors me is that a parent would sign off on that for an underage child.  Aside from the whole "will the 25 year old still want what the 16 year old wanted permanently drawn on them" is the idea of taking your child to someone and having them inject, over and over and over a foreign substance into their body.  I hate needles and turn away when shots are shown on TV, one stations health segment always begins with a scene of a shot being given, why do they have to do that.  My annual TB test is a nightmare, so I just can't imagine saying yes to a 16 year old who wants a tattoo, not happening here. 

[Scott Lloyd]

In my experience in 3 states the dress codes are similar, with some odd things thrown in, in one school you were not allowed to wear leggings under shorts, no matter the length of the shorts, why in the world did this come up, why would anyone wear that?  My kids can't wear jackets in school, I would have hated that since I was always cold in school and wore a jacket all through middle and high school.  Some schools forbade ripped jeans others did not, the same with tank tops, if tank tops were allowed there were limits on how narrow the straps could be.  Never ever ran into a ban on bare shoulders though, the girl in the denim vest who had sleeves edited on to her picture would have never been questioned anywhere I attended school.  Honestly I think the Today people are dumbfounded by the bare shoulder thing, after all Jackie Kennedy was attending formal events, meeting with world leaders, in sleeveless dresses 50 years ago.

 

Tattoos are another story, while I really don't see any reason to edit them out, depending of course on the image, what just floors me is that a parent would sign off on that for an underage child.  Aside from the whole "will the 25 year old still want what the 16 year old wanted permanently drawn on them" is the idea of taking your child to someone and having them inject, over and over and over a foreign substance into their body.  I hate needles and turn away when shots are shown on TV, one stations health segment always begins with a scene of a shot being given, why do they have to do that.  My annual TB test is a nightmare, so I just can't imagine saying yes to a 16 year old who wants a tattoo, not happening here. 

While I don't have a problem with leggings, I can see why some might. They look like underwear, especially if they are white and lacy.

 

I agree with you on tattoos for an underage child and would extend that to ear piercings. We once had a relative consider buying earrings for our infant daughter with the intent that we would have her ears pierced so she could wear the earrings. It amazed me then, and still does, that the relative would think we would even for a moment consider subjecting our child to that pain and mayhem while she was incapable of giving her informed consent, and this merely for the sake of cosmetic vanity.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[bluebell]

http://www.today.com/news/cover-controversy-utah-school-alters-girls-yearbook-photos-show-less-2D79730855

 

I just found it online after sunstoned informed me it was on this morning.  I guess the big hang up was the sleeve, because they were wondering what country Utah was in, so is it that weird?  Were the schools you or your kids attended outside of Utah, presenting in the dress code that you must wear sleeves? 

 

Yes.  No bare shoulders was pretty universal.

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm not at all surprised.

 

These standards aren't limited to Utah or Mormon-centric areas.  My kids have been in schools in 4 states and every school they have attended has had almost the exact same dress code as the school in the article.  However, these standards certainly don't match the standards that t.v. embraces, or those of popular culture.  It's not surprising that a lot of people, especially people who don't have a lot of experience with public schools, would have a hard time getting past that.

Well, as much as I have admired certain entertainment and media types over the years, I learned a long time ago never to look to Hollywood for advice or exemplary models regarding moral decency.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Scott Lloyd