Women Buys All The Indecent T-Shirts In Orem Store Mall.

[ERayR]

My neighbor was chastised by a 5 yr. old just the other day.  She was wearing baggy sweats and a tank top in her home, and the 5 yr. old boy was playing with her son when he told her she was immodest, true story.  I think it's out of control in Utah.  Now we have little children policing, where do they get this...Primary and home?  Could it stem from seeing the church adding sleeves to angels in an artists rendition that didn't have them on at the first?  Telling us it's bad to see shoulders?  It just keeps getting worse and worse.   

 

". . . from the mouths of babes . . . "

[bluebell]

http://blog.constitutioncenter.org/2014/02/constitution-check-do-school-uniform-policies-violate-the-first-amendment/

 

This site does not support your argument.

 

It states-"While the Supreme Court has said repeatedly that students do not shed their First Amendment rights when they enter the school, it has said that authorities may sometimes impose some forms of conformity in order to help in achieving the schools’ teaching and civic education missions.

 

"If a student’s speech activity disrupts the educational process, it can be regulated and even prohibited (as with obscene expression during election campaigns for class officers, and the use of school computers to engage in bullying other students).  And the courts have allowed schools to adopt policies requiring students to conform to dress codes. "

So to state that schools don't have the right to have and enforce a dress code is false.

[thesometimesaint]

 

This site does not support your argument.

 

It states-"While the Supreme Court has said repeatedly that students do not shed their First Amendment rights when they enter the school, it has said that authorities may sometimes impose some forms of conformity in order to help in achieving the schools’ teaching and civic education missions.

 

"If a student’s speech activity disrupts the educational process, it can be regulated and even prohibited (as with obscene expression during election campaigns for class officers, and the use of school computers to engage in bullying other students).  And the courts have allowed schools to adopt policies requiring students to conform to dress codes. "

So to state that schools don't have the right to have and enforce a dress code is false.

 

Incorrect. Any form of conformity must help in achieving the teaching and civic education missions of the schools. Arbitrary dress codes in public schools don't meet that requirement. IE; Appropriate foot wear in Shop classes .

[bluebell]

Incorrect. Any form of conformity must help in achieving the teaching and civic education missions of the schools. Arbitrary dress codes in public schools don't meet that requirement. IE; Appropriate foot wear in Shop classes .

 

Yes they do.  Your link even says so.  

 

It even uses the example of how it is legal for a school in Nevada (i believe that was the state) to require students to wear red polo shirts and khaki pants.

[Thinking]

 

So to state that schools don't have the right to have and enforce a dress code is false.

 

You are correct.

 

However, I believe this thread more about how the dress code was enforced. The yearbook, once printed, is permanent. The pictures supplied to the yearbook staff were most certainly taken in August (plenty of time for retakes). Did the administration really believe that editing photos was the best solution? Sometimes people can be so focused on making sure everybody conforms that they don't examine how that conformation is achieved. Those whose photos were edited are now forever labeled as immodest in their high school yearbooks.

[Tacenda]

You are correct.

However, I believe this thread more about how the dress code was enforced. The yearbook, once printed, is permanent. The pictures supplied to the yearbook staff were most certainly taken in August (plenty of time for retakes). Did the administration really believe that editing photos was the best solution? Sometimes people can be so focused on making sure everybody conforms that they don't examine how that conformation is achieved. Those whose photos were edited are now forever labeled as immodest in their high school yearbooks.

So true and covering the tattoo etc. It feels so 1984ish to me. Like people that dress that way are scum.

[bluebell]

You are correct.

 

However, I believe this thread more about how the dress code was enforced. The yearbook, once printed, is permanent. The pictures supplied to the yearbook staff were most certainly taken in August (plenty of time for retakes). Did the administration really believe that editing photos was the best solution? Sometimes people can be so focused on making sure everybody conforms that they don't examine how that conformation is achieved. Those whose photos were edited are now forever labeled as immodest in their high school yearbooks.

 

If a school tells students that they must conform to the dress code in their pictures or the pictures will be edited-and a student doesn't conform to it-what should the school do?

Edited May 29, 2014 by bluebell

[bcuzbcuz]

http://nypost.com/2014/02/19/utah-mom-buys-out-pacsun-stores-indecent-t-shirts/

 

SALT LAKE CITY — A mother upset about “indecent” T-shirts on display at a Utah mall found a quick if not especially convenient way to remove them: She bought every last one.

Judy Cox and her 18-year-old son were shopping Saturday at the University Mall in Orem, about 40 miles south of Salt Lake City, when she saw the shirts in the window of a PacSun store.

The shirts featured pictures of scantily dressed models in provocative poses.

Cox said she complained about the window display to a store manager and was told the T-shirts couldn’t be taken down without approval from the corporate office. She then bought all 19 T-shirts in stock, for a total of $567.

She says she plans to return them later, toward the end of the chain store’s 60-day return period.

The shirts cost about $28 each on the website for PacSun, which sells beach clothes for teenagers and young adults.

“These shirts clearly cross a boundary that is continually being pushed on our children in images on the Internet, television and when our families shop in the mall,” Cox said in an email to The Associated Press.

The story was first reported by The Daily Herald of Provo.

An employee at the Orem store said Tuesday she wasn’t authorized to speak about the issue and referred questions to the company’s Orange County, Calif., corporate headquarters. PacSun CEO Gary Schoenfeld said in an emailed statement the company takes pride in the clothes and products it sells, which are inspired by music, art, fashion and action sports.

“While customer feedback is important to us, we remain committed to the selection of brands and apparel available in our stores,” Schoenfeld said in the statement.

Orem is a city of about 90,000 in ultraconservative Utah County that uses the motto “Family City USA.” Most residents belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which frowns on pornography and encourages its youth to dress and act modestly.

Cox met with Orem city attorney Greg Stephens on Tuesday to discuss whether the images on the T-shirts violated city code.

Stephens said he told Cox that she first needed to file a complaint with police. He said police would then review the issue and decide whether it needed to be passed on to the city attorney, a process that could take weeks.

City code prohibits anyone from putting “explicit sexual material” on public display. The city defines that as “any material that appeals to a prurient interest in sex and depicts nudity, actual or simulated sexual conduct, sexual excitement, or sadomasochistic abuse.”

Cox said she wants her actions to make clear that these types of images are not acceptable for public display.

“I hope my efforts will inspire others to speak up within their communities,” Cox said in an email. “You don’t have to purchase $600 worth of T-shirts, but you can express your concerns to businesses and corporations who promote the display of pornography to children.”

Longtime mall manager Rob Kallas said the display is down now because Cox bought all the shirts. He said the PacSun store manager told him she was embarrassed to put up the display but was following instructions from corporate managers.

Kallas said this is the first time he’s received complaints about PacSun. But in the past, others have complained about images in the windows of Victoria’s Secret. That’s led to Orem city attorneys at least once asking the store to remove an image, he said.

Kallas didn’t see the T-shirts in question until getting an email from Cox, but he said he agrees that they were inappropriate. Victoria’s Secret has images of women in lingerie, but their clientele is different, he said.

“This is a store that caters to junior high and high school age kids,” said Kallas, mall manager for 40 years. “Some of the poses were provocative and were inappropriate for a store catering to young people.”

PacSun has 600 stores across the United States, the company’s website shows.

 

I think that this is good advertisement for the lds church.

Obviously this kind of shirt is a good seller. Bring in more!!

[MorningStar]

People can't expect to break the rules and not have consequences.  If you let one slide, then kids learn the rules aren't enforced.

[bcuzbcuz]

Obviously this kind of shirt is a good seller. Bring in more!!

If I wanted to stage a protest, I would have taken a shirt outside the store and (after calling radio and TV media) burned the t-shirt. Or I would have worn the shirt, while cutting it into strips, revealing my disgustingly fat "love handles". That would turn away any prospective buyers, the implication being that under that t-shirt sits a grossly overweight older man.

[Thinking]

If a school tells students that they must conform to the dress code in their pictures or the pictures will be edited-and a student doesn't conform to it-what should the school do?

 

The school can still choose to give the student the option of providing a different picture.

 

Dear Student/Parent,

 

It has been determined that the picture provided to the yearbook does not conform to the school dress code. Please provide another picture for the yearbook by [date] so that the original does not have to be edited.

 

Sincerely,

 

Administration

 

Side Note: Many girls pick out their outfits with their mothers so this is also a slap in the face to them as well.

[Thinking]

People can't expect to break the rules and not have consequences.  If you let one slide, then kids learn the rules aren't enforced.

 

People should also be careful to not create consequences that create a bigger mess than what they are trying to clean up.

[Scott Lloyd]

Sorry to resurrect this old topic, but tonight's news just blew me away.  I had to get some feedback, is this alarming or have I gone off the rails that much?

 

http://fox13now.com/2014/05/28/students-at-utah-school-upset-to-discover-yearbook-photos-were-altered-before-publication/

The school yearbook is by nature a publication under the auspices of the school and/or district that publishes it. A publisher has the proprietary right to dictate the nature of the content of its publication, including seeing that certain behavioral standards are observed. The school here is not out of line, especially if the students were reasonably warned in advance that editing might occur.

 

One must also consider the feelings of students -- or parents of students -- who do not approve of immodest photos appearing in a publication produced for their or their children's consumption.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Yearbook photos are typically taken off campus at a professional studio. The studio then sends the pictures to the school yearbook staff.

In my school the photos were shot on site by a professional photographer. And manner of dress was specified for the photos to establish some standard of uniformity.

 

Of course, that was back in the stone age; maybe times have changed.

[Scott Lloyd]

My neighbor was chastised by a 5 yr. old just the other day.  She was wearing baggy sweats and a tank top in her home, and the 5 yr. old boy was playing with her son when he told her she was immodest, true story.  I think it's out of control in Utah.  Now we have little children policing, where do they get this...Primary and home?  Could it stem from seeing the church adding sleeves to angels in an artists rendition that didn't have them on at the first?  Telling us it's bad to see shoulders?  It just keeps getting worse and worse.   

Kudos to the 5-year-old, say I.

 

If the mother is going to get upset about an innocent comment from a 5-year-old, she has a bit of maturing herself to do.

 

Parents should do what they can to teach consideration and good manners, but the reality is that young children are going to behave in certain ways until they grow and learn better. It is not reasonable to expect parents to refrain from teaching their children modesty on the odd chance that a child might on some rare occasion say or do something deemed by others to be awkward.

 

And notwithstanding the dig against Utah and Utahns, this incident could have happened anywhere.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

The school can still choose to give the student the option of providing a different picture.

 

Dear Student/Parent,

 

It has been determined that the picture provided to the yearbook does not conform to the school dress code. Please provide another picture for the yearbook by [date] so that the original does not have to be edited.

 

Sincerely,

 

Administration

 

Side Note: Many girls pick out their outfits with their mothers so this is also a slap in the face to them as well.

The reality may be that the logistics and urgency of the production process might preclude such a thing.

 

I say that as a former high school yearbook staff member and one who has been professionally involved in print publication for more than 30 years.

[Scott Lloyd]

Seems odd that one thread is covering two different subjects.

 

I understand that Tacenda is prohibited from starting threads, and that may be why she chose this one to bring up the subject, but perhaps someone with the capability could migrate all the newer posts into a thread begun for that purpose.

[bluebell]

The school can still choose to give the student the option of providing a different picture.

 

Dear Student/Parent,

 

It has been determined that the picture provided to the yearbook does not conform to the school dress code. Please provide another picture for the yearbook by [date] so that the original does not have to be edited.

 

Sincerely,

 

Administration

 

Side Note: Many girls pick out their outfits with their mothers so this is also a slap in the face to them as well.

 

Yes, the school could have done that.  It instead chose to handle it a different way.

 

However, back to my actual question.  

 

I'm assuming that we are trying to teach our kids that each choice has a consequence and that while we can choose our actions, we then don't have the right to complain about the consequences of our actions when they come to pass.

 

So assuming that is one of the goals of a school, if a school tells the students that pictures not following the dress code will be edited-what should the school do when students choose not to follow the dress code?

 

As to the side-note-if a mother views this as a slap in the face, then she is the perfect example of someone who did not learn while she was young (when she should have learned it) that our choices have consequences, and if we choose to ignore a rule we should not then feel upset when the consequence follows.

[bluebell]

People can't expect to break the rules and not have consequences.  If you let one slide, then kids learn the rules aren't enforced.

 

People should also be careful to not create consequences that create a bigger mess than what they are trying to clean up.

 

So, it's the people who made the rules who have caused this problem, and not the people who choose not to follow them?

[Yirgacheffe]

From the school district website:

Then they should not have been allowed to participate in the pictures in the first place.

[Scott Lloyd]

People should also be careful to not create consequences that create a bigger mess than what they are trying to clean up.

What's the big mess here? That the school has gotten some publicity for standing by certain standards?

 

I daresay that as a result it is less likely to be necessary for the school to do this sort of thing in the future.

[ERayR]

So true and covering the tattoo etc. It feels so 1984ish to me. Like people that dress that way are scum.

 

Some are, some are not.

[Scott Lloyd]

Incorrect. Any form of conformity must help in achieving the teaching and civic education missions of the schools. Arbitrary dress codes in public schools don't meet that requirement. IE; Appropriate foot wear in Shop classes .

Says who?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Yes they do.  Your link even says so.  

 

It even uses the example of how it is legal for a school in Nevada (i believe that was the state) to require students to wear red polo shirts and khaki pants.

Rofl well now imagine you are trying to argue a political point with him. Same thing. I love you Saint but you are simply wrong in your assessment bro.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So, it's the people who made the rules who have caused this problem, and not the people who choose not to follow them?

Yeah logic is on its head sometimes.