why me Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 http://nypost.com/2014/02/19/utah-mom-buys-out-pacsun-stores-indecent-t-shirts/ SALT LAKE CITY — A mother upset about “indecent” T-shirts on display at a Utah mall found a quick if not especially convenient way to remove them: She bought every last one.Judy Cox and her 18-year-old son were shopping Saturday at the University Mall in Orem, about 40 miles south of Salt Lake City, when she saw the shirts in the window of a PacSun store.The shirts featured pictures of scantily dressed models in provocative poses.Cox said she complained about the window display to a store manager and was told the T-shirts couldn’t be taken down without approval from the corporate office. She then bought all 19 T-shirts in stock, for a total of $567.She says she plans to return them later, toward the end of the chain store’s 60-day return period.The shirts cost about $28 each on the website for PacSun, which sells beach clothes for teenagers and young adults.“These shirts clearly cross a boundary that is continually being pushed on our children in images on the Internet, television and when our families shop in the mall,” Cox said in an email to The Associated Press.The story was first reported by The Daily Herald of Provo.An employee at the Orem store said Tuesday she wasn’t authorized to speak about the issue and referred questions to the company’s Orange County, Calif., corporate headquarters. PacSun CEO Gary Schoenfeld said in an emailed statement the company takes pride in the clothes and products it sells, which are inspired by music, art, fashion and action sports.“While customer feedback is important to us, we remain committed to the selection of brands and apparel available in our stores,” Schoenfeld said in the statement.Orem is a city of about 90,000 in ultraconservative Utah County that uses the motto “Family City USA.” Most residents belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which frowns on pornography and encourages its youth to dress and act modestly.Cox met with Orem city attorney Greg Stephens on Tuesday to discuss whether the images on the T-shirts violated city code.Stephens said he told Cox that she first needed to file a complaint with police. He said police would then review the issue and decide whether it needed to be passed on to the city attorney, a process that could take weeks.City code prohibits anyone from putting “explicit sexual material” on public display. The city defines that as “any material that appeals to a prurient interest in sex and depicts nudity, actual or simulated sexual conduct, sexual excitement, or sadomasochistic abuse.”Cox said she wants her actions to make clear that these types of images are not acceptable for public display.“I hope my efforts will inspire others to speak up within their communities,” Cox said in an email. “You don’t have to purchase $600 worth of T-shirts, but you can express your concerns to businesses and corporations who promote the display of pornography to children.”Longtime mall manager Rob Kallas said the display is down now because Cox bought all the shirts. He said the PacSun store manager told him she was embarrassed to put up the display but was following instructions from corporate managers.Kallas said this is the first time he’s received complaints about PacSun. But in the past, others have complained about images in the windows of Victoria’s Secret. That’s led to Orem city attorneys at least once asking the store to remove an image, he said.Kallas didn’t see the T-shirts in question until getting an email from Cox, but he said he agrees that they were inappropriate. Victoria’s Secret has images of women in lingerie, but their clientele is different, he said.“This is a store that caters to junior high and high school age kids,” said Kallas, mall manager for 40 years. “Some of the poses were provocative and were inappropriate for a store catering to young people.”PacSun has 600 stores across the United States, the company’s website shows. I think that this is good advertisement for the lds church.
Senator Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) I think that this is good advertisement for the lds church. Depends on who you talk to. Edited February 20, 2014 by Senator
rpn Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 I think it is the tort of business interference since she purchased with the intent of returning them later. I would refuse to accept the return if I were the store owner (or be very mad about accepting the return). But a community's decency standards can only be upheld if people speak up whenever they are offended by what is in public view. Good on her for doing that.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 When fighting against the forces of darkness...any means necessary! Good for her!
Senator Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 Well, she did indeed make a statement which was her greatest accomplishment in the stunt. However practically it was a rather dumb move.
Popular Post The Nehor Posted February 20, 2014 Popular Post Posted February 20, 2014 When fighting against the forces of darkness...any means necessary! Good for her!Any means? Okay, the war against Satan just got more interesting. Where's my shotgun? I am going to purge this town and demonstrate my righteousness and piety with a good old-fashioned massacre. 6
Avatar4321 Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 I dont think it's going to have the imptact she expects. Though she is thinking outside the box. 1
Popular Post The Nehor Posted February 20, 2014 Popular Post Posted February 20, 2014 New plan for commercial success:Open clothes store in Utah. Put provocative and offensive displays up. Sell them to angry women. Make sure to screw up on the receipt so they cannot return the product. Go home and sleep on a bed of money with hookers and blow.Rinse, repeat. 8
thesometimesaint Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 http://nypost.com/2014/02/19/utah-mom-buys-out-pacsun-stores-indecent-t-shirts/ SALT LAKE CITY — A mother upset about “indecent” T-shirts on display at a Utah mall found a quick if not especially convenient way to remove them: She bought every last one.Judy Cox and her 18-year-old son were shopping Saturday at the University Mall in Orem, about 40 miles south of Salt Lake City, when she saw the shirts in the window of a PacSun store.The shirts featured pictures of scantily dressed models in provocative poses.Cox said she complained about the window display to a store manager and was told the T-shirts couldn’t be taken down without approval from the corporate office. She then bought all 19 T-shirts in stock, for a total of $567.She says she plans to return them later, toward the end of the chain store’s 60-day return period.The shirts cost about $28 each on the website for PacSun, which sells beach clothes for teenagers and young adults.“These shirts clearly cross a boundary that is continually being pushed on our children in images on the Internet, television and when our families shop in the mall,” Cox said in an email to The Associated Press.The story was first reported by The Daily Herald of Provo.An employee at the Orem store said Tuesday she wasn’t authorized to speak about the issue and referred questions to the company’s Orange County, Calif., corporate headquarters. PacSun CEO Gary Schoenfeld said in an emailed statement the company takes pride in the clothes and products it sells, which are inspired by music, art, fashion and action sports.“While customer feedback is important to us, we remain committed to the selection of brands and apparel available in our stores,” Schoenfeld said in the statement.Orem is a city of about 90,000 in ultraconservative Utah County that uses the motto “Family City USA.” Most residents belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which frowns on pornography and encourages its youth to dress and act modestly.Cox met with Orem city attorney Greg Stephens on Tuesday to discuss whether the images on the T-shirts violated city code.Stephens said he told Cox that she first needed to file a complaint with police. He said police would then review the issue and decide whether it needed to be passed on to the city attorney, a process that could take weeks.City code prohibits anyone from putting “explicit sexual material” on public display. The city defines that as “any material that appeals to a prurient interest in sex and depicts nudity, actual or simulated sexual conduct, sexual excitement, or sadomasochistic abuse.”Cox said she wants her actions to make clear that these types of images are not acceptable for public display.“I hope my efforts will inspire others to speak up within their communities,” Cox said in an email. “You don’t have to purchase $600 worth of T-shirts, but you can express your concerns to businesses and corporations who promote the display of pornography to children.”Longtime mall manager Rob Kallas said the display is down now because Cox bought all the shirts. He said the PacSun store manager told him she was embarrassed to put up the display but was following instructions from corporate managers.Kallas said this is the first time he’s received complaints about PacSun. But in the past, others have complained about images in the windows of Victoria’s Secret. That’s led to Orem city attorneys at least once asking the store to remove an image, he said.Kallas didn’t see the T-shirts in question until getting an email from Cox, but he said he agrees that they were inappropriate. Victoria’s Secret has images of women in lingerie, but their clientele is different, he said.“This is a store that caters to junior high and high school age kids,” said Kallas, mall manager for 40 years. “Some of the poses were provocative and were inappropriate for a store catering to young people.”PacSun has 600 stores across the United States, the company’s website shows. I think that this is good advertisement for the lds church. I don't believe this is good advertizing for the Church. It says that 90,000 in ultraconservative MORMON Utah County want to force its ultraconservative Happy Valley "Values" on everyone else. All it really says to PacSun is buy more of those T-shirts because they are hot sellers, and spark more interest in that type of T-shirt. 2
bluebell Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 http://nypost.com/2014/02/19/utah-mom-buys-out-pacsun-stores-indecent-t-shirts/ I think that this is good advertisement for the lds church. And good advertisement for PacSun. 1
Senator Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 Pacsun aught to thank the lady for buying all the shirts. Otherwise, I can't see how any would want them! They're the dumbest things I've seen.
bluebell Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 I don't believe this is good advertizing for the Church. It says that 90,000 in ultraconservative MORMON Utah County want to force its ultraconservative Happy Valley "Values" on everyone else. All it really says to PacSun is buy more of those T-shirts because they are hot sellers, and spark more interest in that type of T-shirt. People have a right to implement their own decency laws in their county by vote, regardless of the reason they choose the laws they do. Anyone who thinks that someone trying to make sure the decency laws (as she understands them) are being enforced is equal to 'forcing her conservative values onto other people' needs to go back to school and learn more about the way that laws work in America. 1
JLHPROF Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 Apparently this woman had never heard of the retail principle "replenishment". You sell 2, you get sent 5 more (trust me, I know retail).When I ran my first Big Box bookstore we used to be forced to display erotic fiction and "sex manuals" on fixtures around Valentines. Every year we had customer complaints. Every year we ignored said customers. I understand standing for principle, but when it comes to corporate retail, if it sells, you get more to sell. Just that simple.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 Any means? Okay, the war against Satan just got more interesting. Where's my shotgun? I am going to purge this town and demonstrate my righteousness and piety with a good old-fashioned massacre.Just remember to always point your weapon down range at all times.
mormonnewb Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 People have a right to implement their own decency laws in their county by vote, regardless of the reason they choose the laws they do. Anyone who thinks that someone trying to make sure the decency laws (as she understands them) are being enforced is equal to 'forcing her conservative values onto other people' needs to go back to school and learn more about the way that laws work in America. As for how "the laws work in America," we have established procedures for enforcement of the laws. Otherwise, we'd have perpetual unrest as civilians sought to interpret and enforce the laws according to their own understanding. In this case, there was a settled procedure -- calling the police and filing a complaint. That procedure was NOT to fraudulently purchase merchandise with the intent of returning it later in an effort to prevent the retailer from selling those items to others. And as Mormons, isn't there something in one of our documents (we have so many), but wasn't there something about being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. Or something like that? And yes, I concede that buying out the stock wasn't the most heinous of actions, but where do we draw the line in defense of virtue? Would it be okay if she walked into the store and, say, "accidentally" spilt red paint on all of the shirts? Or what about if she called in a bomb threat to the store? Sure, it would be a little dishonest (like buying merchandise with the intent to return it later), but it's not like anyone would get hurt. What's a little white lie when we're fighting the forces of immodesty?
Avatar4321 Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 I don't believe this is good advertizing for the Church. It says that 90,000 in ultraconservative MORMON Utah County want to force its ultraconservative Happy Valley "Values" on everyone else. All it really says to PacSun is buy more of those T-shirts because they are hot sellers, and spark more interest in that type of T-shirt. How does she force any values on anyone? 1
why me Posted February 20, 2014 Author Posted February 20, 2014 I think that some are missing the point. The t-shirts seem to be inappropriate and against the city code. The store is also a teenybopper store and so, such images would provoke a response. Even the store manager knew that the shirts would be offensive but needed to follow the corporate leaders by placing the shirts in the window. I think that this sent a message and store policy would need to accept the return of the shirts.
Avatar4321 Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 Apparently this woman had never heard of the retail principle "replenishment". You sell 2, you get sent 5 more (trust me, I know retail).When I ran my first Big Box bookstore we used to be forced to display erotic fiction and "sex manuals" on fixtures around Valentines. Every year we had customer complaints. Every year we ignored said customers. I understand standing for principle, but when it comes to corporate retail, if it sells, you get more to sell. Just that simple. Which is the ultimate problem for her attempt at protest
why me Posted February 20, 2014 Author Posted February 20, 2014 And as Mormons, isn't there something in one of our documents (we have so many), but wasn't there something about being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. Or something like that? But Orem does have a city code and these t-shirts seem to be breaking the code. The manager of the store did not want to create a store window display out of them but was forced to by corporate management. I think that the lady sent a message to the corporate bosses not to mess with Orem teenagers' sexuality. And to be culturally sensitive. I can assure you that corporate management would never do anything to insult muslims so why insult mormons?
why me Posted February 20, 2014 Author Posted February 20, 2014 I understand standing for principle, but when it comes to corporate retail, if it sells, you get more to sell. Just that simple.The point was to get the t-shirts out of the window. She asked for the t-shirts to be taken out of the window display. Management said no. This store will think twice before insulting the mormon population by such a window display.
Senator Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) . I can assure you that corporate management would never do anything to insult muslims so why insult mormons? I prophesy that there will soon be other shirts produced that will be insulting to Mormons. [Where's my Nostradamus emoticon when I need it....] Edited February 20, 2014 by Senator
thesometimesaint Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 People have a right to implement their own decency laws in their county by vote, regardless of the reason they choose the laws they do. Anyone who thinks that someone trying to make sure the decency laws (as she understands them) are being enforced is equal to 'forcing her conservative values onto other people' needs to go back to school and learn more about the way that laws work in America. No They DON'T. Neither legally nor morally. ALL laws in this country must abide by the US Constitution. Congress shall pass no laws respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise there of. For over 100 years that has been interpreted to include all levels of government(Federal, State, County, Local). My values are at least as conservative as yours, but I have neither the desire to force mine of anyone else, nor to have theirs forced on me.SEE D&C 121:36-37 36 That the arights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be bcontrolled nor handled only upon the cprinciples of righteousness. 37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to acover our bsins, or to gratify our cpride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or ddominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens ewithdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
mormonnewb Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 I don't believe this is good advertizing for the Church. It says that 90,000 in ultraconservative MORMON Utah County want to force its ultraconservative Happy Valley "Values" on everyone else. All it really says to PacSun is buy more of those T-shirts because they are hot sellers, and spark more interest in that type of T-shirt. Agreed. In this "PR" effort, who is our target audience -- those who already agree with our standards of modesty? Or is it those who have yet to accept our restored gospel? If it's the latter, then the question is: What are the thing(s) that non-believers desperately desire that the Church can provide? Reasonable people can disagree on this point, but IMO, our "target audience" is not looking for someone to restrict their choices (by any means necessary) and to impose their own standard of morality. At least, speaking for myself, this is not what attracted me to the Church. I didn't say, "Wait a minute! Are you telling me that if I join this Church, I get to give up coffee, tea and booze? And that I'll be given a uniform to wear under my clothes? And that, each Sunday, I'll be able to slip someone an envelope containing 10% of my salary? Where do I sign?" I'm a strange bird, so it's probably just me, but I came to the Church DESPITE these things. What drew me to the Church was the opportunity to be part of a loving community, the opportunity to serve and to have a meaningful purpose that extended into eternity, and the possibility of becoming more like my Savior. In my opinion, this is what most people desire -- community, purpose and growth. The commandments (and the rest) are just means by which to accomplish these ends, but they are not what draws people to the Church. In my view, I'm not sure how this well-meaning sister's actions demonstrated the community, purpose and growth that this Church offers. Or, like usual, am I missing something here?
thesometimesaint Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 How does she force any values on anyone? She is saying through buying all those shirts. That my values are so much better than yours that I'll stop you from buying those shirts.
mormonnewb Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 But Orem does have a city code and these t-shirts seem to be breaking the code. The manager of the store did not want to create a store window display out of them but was forced to by corporate management. I think that the lady sent a message to the corporate bosses not to mess with Orem teenagers' sexuality. And to be culturally sensitive. I can assure you that corporate management would never do anything to insult muslims so why insult mormons? And the procedure to enforce that code is to call the police and make a formal complaint. As for insulting Muslims, I think this display would be equally offensive to them as well. In fact, given their modesty standards, more so.
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