bluebell Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 No They DON'T. Neither legally nor morally. ALL laws in this country must abide by the US Constitution. Of course TSS. I figured that that went without saying. But as long as it does, people can pass whatever decency laws they can get enough votes to pass. This woman wasn't advocating forcing people to agree with her values, she was advocating for the law (as she understands it) to be enforced. That's why she contacted an attorney. My values are at least as conservative as yours, but I have neither the desire to force mine of anyone else, nor to have theirs forced on me. Then you can abstain from voting when decency laws and such are brought before you. Other people though, aren't bound by your same beliefs of course and can vote for decency laws if they wish.
bluebell Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 She is saying through buying all those shirts. That my values are so much better than yours that I'll stop you from buying those shirts. No she's not. She's saying, these shirts are breaking the decency laws as i understand them, and since i can't get the store to take them down, i'll get them removed some other way and attempt to prosecute later.
why me Posted February 20, 2014 Author Posted February 20, 2014 And the procedure to enforce that code is to call the police and make a formal complaint. As for insulting Muslims, I think this display would be equally offensive to them as well. In fact, given their modesty standards, more so.I don't think that corporate management would put such a display within the muslim community. This was basically my point. Orem is 90 percent mormon.
why me Posted February 20, 2014 Author Posted February 20, 2014 She is saying through buying all those shirts. That my values are so much better than yours that I'll stop you from buying those shirts.Basically, she did not want these shirts in the window display. She was not against these shirts being sold in the store. She just wanted them out of the window. Corporate management could have been more culturally sensitive toward the mormon community by not putting such shirts in the window display. It is really not that much to ask for.
JLHPROF Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 The point was to get the t-shirts out of the window. She asked for the t-shirts to be taken out of the window display. Management said no. This store will think twice before insulting the mormon population by such a window display. No, the point is her action just ensured the continued shipment and display of such shirts, instead of allowing them to not sell (which they wouldn't have in Orem). She just sent a big message to corporate "Hey, these kind of shirts sell REALLY well if you display them in the Orem store", instead of what would have been the previous outcome "Hey, we can't sell any of these shirts at this branch".
bluebell Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 As for how "the laws work in America," we have established procedures for enforcement of the laws. Otherwise, we'd have perpetual unrest as civilians sought to interpret and enforce the laws according to their own understanding. In this case, there was a settled procedure -- calling the police and filing a complaint. That procedure was NOT to fraudulently purchase merchandise with the intent of returning it later in an effort to prevent the retailer from selling those items to others.If she broke the law, then i'm sure the store will take action and have her charged. That is the store's right. I'm not convinced that she has broken any laws though. Which laws do you believe she broke by not following the procedure that you claim she must follow? And as Mormons, isn't there something in one of our documents (we have so many), but wasn't there something about being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. Or something like that? Which law did she break? Honest question.
why me Posted February 20, 2014 Author Posted February 20, 2014 No, the point is her action just ensured the continued shipment and display of such shirts, instead of allowing them to not sell (which they wouldn't have in Orem). She just sent a big message to corporate "Hey, these kind of shirts sell REALLY well if you display them in the Orem store", instead of what would have been the previous outcome "Hey, we can't sell any of these shirts at this branch".I don't think that they will be placed in the window again. The point has been made. and the shirts purchased will be returned and put on the shelves. The store is now expecting the shirts to be returned. No point in ordering new ones.
JLHPROF Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 I don't think that they will be placed in the window again. The point has been made. and the shirts purchased will be returned and put on the shelves. The store is now expecting the shirts to be returned. No point in ordering new ones. You really don't know chain retail do you. The computerized inventory system registered 19 of those shirts selling at that branch register. That will be fed back up the chain to the buyers, who will increase the buy for that particular branch of the chain, resulting in the store receiving probably 30 of them for the next time these shirts are being displayed. Retail 101. Unless corporate gets negative publicity and is in danger of losing $$$ they will only send more to capitalize on this item's "popularity" in Orem.
why me Posted February 20, 2014 Author Posted February 20, 2014 It has made world news. Here is the dailymail in the uk. Notice one of the t-shirts. Not very good for a window display. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2562680/Mother-outraged-indecent-t-shirts-Pac-Sun-window-display-buys-567-DOLLARS.html
jkwilliams Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 Perhaps she'll black out the offensive parts and donate the shirts to charity. That would seem the right thing to do.
omni Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 Sweet! First the blog about Frozen being a gay propaganda film goes viral and not this story has reached national attention. We're only half way through the week folks, I can't wait to see what the weekend will bring!
omni Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 On a side note, does anybody know how this story got to the AP? Did the manager call them up and give them the woman's info or did the woman call the AP with a great idea for a story?
Gray Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 Eagerly awaiting a Mormon variation on the Sheltering Suburban Mom reddit meme
thesometimesaint Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 No she's not. She's saying, these shirts are breaking the decency laws as i understand them, and since i can't get the store to take them down, i'll get them removed some other way and attempt to prosecute later. Of course TSS. I figured that that went without saying. But as long as it does, people can pass whatever decency laws they can get enough votes to pass. This woman wasn't advocating forcing people to agree with her values, she was advocating for the law (as she understands it) to be enforced. That's why she contacted an attorney. Then you can abstain from voting when decency laws and such are brought before you. Other people though, aren't bound by your same beliefs of course and can vote for decency laws if they wish. This is settled law. The First Amendment applies to every level of government. IE; Just because a police officer doesn't ticket you every time you exceed the legal speed limit doesn't make it OK to speed. Yes she is. She is saying through buying all the shirts her values are better than yours, even if you agree that those shirts are vile, disgusting, pornographic or whatever, that you have no right to buy what she doesn't like. I'm not an attorney nor do I play one on TV, but if I were one I'd tell her to "Grow Up". That retailers can only make money by selling their wares.That the best way to handle it is to not buy them at all and to win friends and influence people by gentle persuasion to follow her example of not buying them. That fashions in clothing come and go, and with teenagers wait a couple of weeks and it will change again. My votes are my own. Since I first became eligible to vote I've missed exactly one election, a local school board election when I was out of the state. I've have voted consistently for expanded human rights, civil liberties, and the right of people to be left alone in their personal lives, free from a bunch of busybodies that can't see beyond their own narrow little sectarian world.
thesometimesaint Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 Basically, she did not want these shirts in the window display. She was not against these shirts being sold in the store. She just wanted them out of the window. Corporate management could have been more culturally sensitive toward the mormon community by not putting such shirts in the window display. It is really not that much to ask for. Stores are in the business to make money. They do that through advertising to increase sales, including in their shop windows. In buying them all she is imposing her values on you whether you agree with her or not. That she wanted to return them to the store to get her money back just says she had no intention of actually purchasing them that she just wanted to prevent you from doing it.
mormonnewb Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) If she broke the law, then i'm sure the store will take action and have her charged. That is the store's right. I'm not convinced that she has broken any laws though. Which laws do you believe she broke by not following the procedure that you claim she must follow? Which law did she break? Honest question. There may (or may) not be an act of fraud in purchasing merchandise with the intent of returning it later for the purpose of preventing them being sold to others. Otherwise, why wouldn't the Sears instruct its employees to buy out all of the Macy's stock each year at Christmas and then return the items for a full refund after the holidays? That would seem to be a pretty effective form of corporate sabotage. However, I don't know if there is a law that applies to this situation but, as Mormons, I didn't think that our obligation was just to not break the laws. I thought we had an obligation to sustain them. And part of that obligation is to follow the procedures established by the law itself. Instead, she decided to take the law into her own hands. Fortunately, in this case, she only had to be dishonest (let's not pretend that she told the store about her plan to return this items later). But what if it hadn't been so easy? What if the offending images had been on a sign instead? Should she had painted graffiti over it or simply burned it to the ground? Of course not. She should CALL THE POLICE AND FILE A REPORT. Just because one is right doesn't give them the right to take the law into their own hands. Edited February 20, 2014 by mormonnewb 1
thesometimesaint Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 If she broke the law, then i'm sure the store will take action and have her charged. That is the store's right. I'm not convinced that she has broken any laws though. Which laws do you believe she broke by not following the procedure that you claim she must follow? Which law did she break? Honest question. I've never claimed she broke any law. Inadvertently she reenforced for the Law of Supply and Demand. All she really did was stimulate supply. by increasing demand.
mormonnewb Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) I don't think that corporate management would put such a display within the muslim community. This was basically my point. Orem is 90 percent mormon. That's an interesting point that you make. Why would the manager of a store in Orem put merchandise in the window of his store knowing that would offend 90% of his potential customers? Perhaps, he's trying to win a bet with his counterpart at Banana Republic on who can get fired the quickest. Or maybe, he is the type of person who likes to have suburban moms yelling at him all day (it's certainly one of my favorite pastimes). Or maybe, just maybe, this store manager knows that the town is 90% Mormon but not all Mormons subscribe to the same standards of modesty and decency. Think about it. If the community largely consists of people with this woman's sensibilities, then she better take that merchandise back NOW because this store won't be in business in 60 days. Certainly, we know that the store would go out of business if it put T-shirts in the window reading, "Joseph Smith: The Big Liar." Not a single Mormon would ever go in this store again. However, I suspect there are some Mormons who will continue to shop at this store despite the window display, because it's possible that not all of us have the same attitude about what we can expect to be exposed to in the public square. We understand that our standards and just that; OURS. And that others have their standards and that we can simply avert our eyes rather than trying to "protect" others who might not feel that they need protecting. Edited February 20, 2014 by mormonnewb
frank_jessop Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 People have a right to implement their own decency laws in their county by vote, regardless of the reason they choose the laws they do. Anyone who thinks that someone trying to make sure the decency laws (as she understands them) are being enforced is equal to 'forcing her conservative values onto other people' needs to go back to school and learn more about the way that laws work in America.You mean, file a complaint with police first, as the city Attorney indicated? It is clear this person was seeking to impose her values on others. She is effectively a vigalante.
why me Posted February 20, 2014 Author Posted February 20, 2014 Or maybe, just maybe, this store manager knows that the town is 90% Mormon but not all Mormons subscribe to the same standards of modesty and decency. Think about it. If the community largely consists of people with this woman's sensibilities, then she better take that merchandise back NOW because this store won't be in business in 60 days. Certainly, we know that the store would go out of business if it put T-shirts in the window reading, "Joseph Smith: The Big Liar." Not a single Mormon would ever go in this store again.The store manager knew that the shirts would cause offense as a window display. But the store manager could do nothing about it. It was a corporate decision made in california. Obviously, corporate management were clueless about the insensitivity of such a shirt in the mormon community. 2
mormonnewb Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) The store manager knew that the shirts would cause offense as a window display. But the store manager could do nothing about it. It was a corporate decision made in california. Obviously, corporate management were clueless about the insensitivity of such a shirt in the mormon community. I stand corrected. Orem might just be as "uptight" as you have suggested. By the way, is that the good PR that you are seeing? That we can be just as fundamentalist as the Muslims in wanting to impose our religious views into the public square? I'm not sure that's working so well for them, but hey, when did we ever learn from past mistakes? Edited February 20, 2014 by mormonnewb
cinepro Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 But Orem does have a city code and these t-shirts seem to be breaking the code. Which city code did the display violate? http://exe.orem.org/citycode.aspx Also, the mall appears to have a "Victoria's Secret" store as well. In what way would a display of T-shirts showing small pictures of lingerie models on the shirts be worse than the usual Victoria's Secret window display? Also, if a person bought one of the shirts from PacSun and wore it, would they be in violation of the Orem city code? If not, how can the display itself be said to violate the code?
mormonnewb Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 Also, if a person bought one of the shirts from PacSun and wore it, would they be in violation of the Orem city code? If not, how can the display itself be said to violate the code? In that vein, if wearing such a shirt in public violates the decency laws, would it have been appropriate for this woman to purchase the wearer's shirt (and obviously, replace it with an appropriate shirt), and to make that purchase with a check written on an account with insufficient funds? If not, why?
teddyaware Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) I stand corrected. Orem might just be as "uptight" as you have suggested. By the way, is that the good PR that you are seeing? That we can be just as fundamentalist as the Muslims in wanting to impose our religious views into the public square? I'm not sure that's working so well for them, but hey, when did we ever learn from past mistakes?I see merit in both sides of this discussion. But I have this visualization in my head that just moments before the Lord descends with the hosts of heaven to destroy the wicked and rescue the righteous, there will still be all sorts of Latter-day Saints who will making fun of those members who are really worried that all the wickedness has gone too far. You know, like those who mercilessly mocked and ridiculed Noah for building an ark on dry ground right up until the moment the flood waters started to rise. I guess it's just human nature to poke fun at those quaint but overwrought people who take the Lord's warnings seriously. Edited February 20, 2014 by teddyaware
thesometimesaint Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 I see merit in both sides of this discussion. But I have this visualization in my head that just moments before the Lord descends with the hosts of heaven to destroy the wicked and rescue the righteous, there will still be all sorts of Latter-day Saints who will making fun of those members who are really worried that all the wickedness has gone too far. You know, like those who mercilessly mocked and ridiculed Noah for building an ark on dry ground until the moment the floods started to rise. I guess it's just human nature to poke fun at those quaint but overwrought people who take the Lord's warnings seriously. I'm not mocking her. I just feel there are far better and more effective means for her to get the results she wants.SEE Forbidden Fruit Effect http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/bad-appetite/200910/forbidden-frui
Recommended Posts