Most Women Get The Type Of Man They Dress For - March 2014 Ensign

[mercyngrace]

Not sure this has been added to the mix yet...

 

http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2014/02/men-women-and-modesty/

[bluebell]

What I wonder is what the equivalent counsel is for young men. Whenever I hear about modest clothing, it's always aimed at the young women. The unspoken assumption, it seems to me, is that when young women wear revealing clothing, they are causing arousal in the young men; I don't see any reciprocal assumption at all.

 

Thus, it really does seem that it's about not provoking lustful thoughts in young men, meaning that young women are partly responsible for the thoughts of young men. That would explain the various weird articles and statements about modesty I've seen coming from the church over the last few years, such as the Friend article about how a 4 year old is immodest for wearing a sleeveless top. That's just bizarre.

 

If my neighbor has a tennis-shoe fetish, is it immodest for my daughters to wear tennis shoes? I don't have a problem with standards of modesty, but I seriously dislike this attitude about young women taking responsibility for young men making them into visual objects of lust.

 

I agree, and i think we are already seeing (and being flabbergasted at) the logical outcome of this pervasive teaching.

 

In the last few years we've seen men at church schools publicly shaming, either in person, thru videos, or the publicized written word, girls they come across who are not dressed 'modestly' enough in their opinion.

 

We sit back and are astounded that these young men feel they have the right to make such judgments, but it shouldn't surprise us in the least.  They are only responding exactly how the church has taught them to respond.

 

You can't continuously teach the young men that they need to surround themselves with girls who care enough about them so as to not become pornography or to arouse them sexually thru their dress or their actions, and you can't continuously teach the girls, in the presence of young men, that they need to be careful that they don't cause the young men to have bad thoughts because of something that they wear, without sending the message that girls' modesty exists to benefit boys.

 

And if girls are modest in order to benefit boys, then it makes sense that so many boys now think they have the right and the authority to police what girls wear and to shame them if they aren't behaving in way that serves male religious interests.  

 

All of this could be salvaged if the leaders and teachers would start to focus equally on both sexes when it comes to modesty, and would focus on how being immodest hurts the person being immodest rather than how it hurts those around them.

[DJBrown]

In March 2014 Ensign we have the following statement:

http://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/magazines/ensign-march-2014/2014-03-00-ensign-eng.pdf

As the father of an 11-year-old girl I of course encourage her to dress modestly. But I'm disturbed by the message that: "...most women get the type of man they dress for."

So if a woman who wears a short dress or low top ends up in an abusive relationship, is it her fault? Did she get the man she dressed for?

 

 

I don't see this statement claiming that such a result is justified or fair or appropriate.  It is a matter of observation.  Life is not perfect.  We can describe human behavior without necessarily casting judgment.  

 

Is this statement really incorrect?  I don't think so.

[bluebell]

Here's what they say:

 

"Young women should avoid short shorts and short skirts, shirts that do not cover the stomach, and clothing that does not cover the shoulders or is low-cut in the front or the back. Young men should also maintain modesty in their appearance."

 

That's it. Specifics for young women, nothing for young men. Like I said, it's focused on young women, as it always has been. I get the feeling that whoever writes this stuff doesn't think young women are attracted to young men's appearance. Why, I don't know.

 

I think it's probably more that whoever writes this stuff doesn't think that popular men's fashion is inherently immodest, as is girls' fashion, so the boys don't need as detailed of a description of what to avoid since there is little societal pressure working against them.

 

It completely ignores the fact though there are ways for boys to be immodest that don't necessarily revolve around clothing styles that they need to speak to (such as not taking off your shirt for any random reason you can think of maybe).

[jkwilliams]

We sit back and are astounded that these young men feel they have the right to make such judgments, but it shouldn't surprise us in the least.  They are only responding exactly how the church has taught them to respond.

I've always assumed that the reason these young men shame the young women in this way is that the young men have become aroused and want to blame it on the girls.

 

All of this could be salvaged if the leaders and teachers would start to focus equally on both sexes when it comes to modesty, and would focus on how being immodest hurts the person being immodest rather than how it hurts those around them.

I think they'd have to lose the unspoken assumption first about how men and women respond to visual stimuli. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[jkwilliams]

I think it's probably more that whoever writes this stuff doesn't think that popular men's fashion is inherently immodest, as is girls' fashion, so the boys don't need as detailed of a description of what to avoid since there is little societal pressure working against them.

 

It completely ignores the fact though there are ways for boys to be immodest that don't necessarily revolve around clothing styles that they need to speak to (such as not taking off your shirt for any random reason you can think of maybe).

I think we both agree that there are a lot of unspoken assumptions behind the different treatment of this topic for young men and young women. I have 3 sons and 3 daughters, and they were definitely treated differently as far as teachings about modesty go.

My two older daughters came home from a "standards night" once so horrified that, to this day, they won't tell me what was said, only that there was "way too much detail" and that it was "inappropriate and creepy" (my oldest daughter's words).

[Senator]

So to make things equal, we need to identify what it is that males do that causes females to be aroused..........and tell them to stop it!   

 

Heck, there's already a non-dating epidemic in the church. 

Edited February 18, 2014 by Senator

[MorningStar]

So to make things equal, we need to identify what it is that males do that causes females to be aroused..........and tell them to stop it!   

Oh, we're never telling you that.  Bwah hahahahahahaaaaaaa!!!!

[Gray]

So to make things equal, we need to identify what it is that males do that causes females to be aroused..........and tell them to stop it!   

 

Heck, there's already a non-dating epidemic in the church. 

 

It might help if some women were involved in writing these things

[mfbukowski]

You mentioned something about women being naive about what goes on in men's minds. How is that the concern of women?

Are you serious?

 

My wife is very concerned about understanding me, and the other 50% of the world's population she interacts with on a daily basis.

 

Perhaps she is the only woman who wants to communicate with and understand men?  I think not.

[Senator]

I've always assumed that the reason these young men shame the young women in this way is that the young men have become aroused and want to blame it on the girls.

 

 

 

 

So, I see three solutions to the problem:

 

1:  Tell the young men to stay away from the young women

 

2:  Tell the young women to cover up (burkas anyone?)

 

3:  Train the young men against their natural responses by sending them on a 8month foreign exchange to one of the primitive indigenous tribes in S. America. That'll do it!

     (I've actually heavily promoted #3 in the past)

Edited February 18, 2014 by Senator

[Danzo]

It would seem the consensus here is that modesty isn't important and shouldn't be taught to young women.

 

Or maybe that nothing should be taught to young women unless the topic is covered exactly the same to young women (I should probably be teaching my son that spaghetti strap are not appropriate)

 

Or maybe we should not teach our children that anything is bad lest they should feel bad about themselves.

[bluebell]

I've always assumed that the reason these young men shame the young women in this way is that the young men have become aroused and want to blame it on the girls.

 

 

 

That could be, but i've seen a young man publicly shame a girl because she was wearing a dress that showed the back of her knees.  Are men frequently turned on by the backs of women's knees?

 

Maybe they are, but to me, such things come off as a power trip and nothing more.  

[Gray]

Are you serious?

 

My wife is very concerned about understanding me, and the other 50% of the world's population she interacts with on a daily basis.

 

Perhaps she is the only woman who wants to communicate with and understand men?  I think not.

 

I don't think women are unclear that men find women attractive. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

It would seem the consensus here is that modesty isn't important and shouldn't be taught to young women.

 

I don't know what thread you are reading, but certainly not this one. The consensus of those opposed to the article is that modesty should be taught as a way of showing respect to yourself and to God. (Your body is a temple afterall). What we wear sends a message. The message we send with our clothing choice should be that we respect our bodies.

 

Men's thought's are their own responsibility and women should not be taught that if they arouse a man, then they are walking pornography. Is the woman in this photo walking pornography? Should she have covered up her feet? Maybe the eyeslit is too much. Or perhaps she should have just stayed at home, so as not to arouse any impure feelings in those around her...

Edited February 18, 2014 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

- You're walking porn

- You'll get, and deserve, the wrong type of partner

- You'll only get a "high quality" spouse if you're pure

 

-you are only walking porn if you dress that way.

- You do get and deserve the person you pick. After all no one in this world, generally these days, picks the person you marry. However you would be really foolish to think that a RM, for instance, would be interested much in a girl that dress really poorly.

-I am not sure there is a guarantee here any were in the article.  No one has or would make such a statement.

Straw men sure are easy to knock down aren't they?

 

What I think is really going on here is that certain people love to read more into the text than is there.

 

I think a certain line in the article could be worded better. But the reality is that your actions will only get you certain type of people and if you want a better chance at getting some one good act like it. Hanging out in a bar trying to find Peter Priesthood really is not a good idea. But you act like it is. I mean really.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Here's what they say:

 

"Young women should avoid short shorts and short skirts, shirts that do not cover the stomach, and clothing that does not cover the shoulders or is low-cut in the front or the back. Young men should also maintain modesty in their appearance."

 

That's it. Specifics for young women, nothing for young men. Like I said, it's focused on young women, as it always has been. I get the feeling that whoever writes this stuff doesn't think young women are attracted to young men's appearance. Why, I don't know.

Women think about men differently from how men think about women? I thought every one knew this. This is futile.

 

On top of this, do young men have an issue wearing short shorts or short skirts? Do men have an issue wearing shirts that show the tummy? Further more does men wearing a shirt that shoes the tummy have the same effect on a girl as it does a man if she were to were the shirt showing the tummy?

Edited February 18, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Senator]

Women think about men differently from how men think about women? I thought every one knew this. This is futile.

 

Well, not entirely.

 

Why do you think the thin tee-shirts worn by the likes of Hugh Jackman, Ryan Gosling  are slightly......to small?

Edited February 18, 2014 by Senator

[Danzo]

I don't know what thread you are reading, but certainly not this one. The consensus of those opposed to the article is that modesty should be taught as a way of showing respect to yourself and to God. (Your body is a temple afterall). What we wear sends a message. The message we send with our clothing choice should be that we respect our bodies.

 

 

Then what is the issue with the Article in question?

 

 

Men's thought's are their own responsibility and women should not be taught that if they arouse a man, then they are walking pornography.

 

I didn't see that in the article quoted, maybe you are looking at an unabridged article?

 

 

 Is the woman in this photo walking pornography? Should she have covered up her feet? Maybe the eyeslit is too much. Or perhaps she should have just stayed at home, so as not to arouse any impure feelings in those around her...

 

I don't make the connection between the photo and the article.

[Danzo]

"The dress of a woman has a powerful impact upon the minds and passions of men."

 

Do most people here think this is a falsehood?

[Garden Girl]

Here's what they say:

 

"Young women should avoid short shorts and short skirts, shirts that do not cover the stomach, and clothing that does not cover the shoulders or is low-cut in the front or the back. Young men should also maintain modesty in their appearance."

 

That's it. Specifics for young women, nothing for young men. Like I said, it's focused on young women, as it always has been. I get the feeling that whoever writes this stuff doesn't think young women are attracted to young men's appearance. Why, I don't know.

 

I think bluebell alluded to this... but IMO there are so many ways a girl/woman can be immodest in appearance vs a boy/man... the variety of fashion or style for women is wide vs Shirt/pants mainly for boys/men... And men normally wear Bermuda type shorts vs short shorts... and they normally would not remove their shirts... or wear their pants around their mid-buttocks (looks stupid to begin with)...  So there seems to be an imbalance in concentrating on the need and type of fashion modesty in women...

Boys/men should be responsible for their own thoughts and reactions regardless...  and girls/women should simply keep the modesty standards out of respect for themselves... period.

 

GG

Edited February 18, 2014 by Garden Girl

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Then what is the issue with the Article in question?

The article in question frames women's modesty in terms of how it impacts men.

 

I didn't see that in the article quoted, maybe you are looking at an unabridged article?

See this post here: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/62864-most-women-get-the-type-of-man-they-dress-for-march-2014-ensign/?p=1209346168

Also the footnote to the section in question references this portion of a talk from Elder Oaks:

And young women, please understand that if you dress immodestly, you are magnifying this problem by becoming pornography to some of the men who see you.

 

I don't make the connection between the photo and the article.

Was the woman dressed modestly enough? Is she "magnifying this problem by becoming pornography" to those that look at her with lust? Where do we draw the line?

Since I have answered your questions, I'd like for you to substantiate your claim that "It would seem the consensus here is that modesty isn't important and shouldn't be taught to young women." Just one quote from any poster here that states Modesty shouldn't be taught to young women would be great. Thanks!

[ERayR]

What does humans being sexual beings have to do with "boobies" being meant to feed babies?  From what I understand not every culture is as breast focused as the US culture.

 

For men they are prominent features of the opposite sex and for most women they are part of the erogenous zones of the body.  It seems self evident that they have more than one function and not just for feeding babies.  Of course I am a product of the 50's and 60's so what do I know.

[ERayR]

Well, maybe with your significnt other. But according to scripture and Jimmy Carter, you've sinned if you lust after someone other than that person.

 

Jimmie Carter wasn't a very good president either.

[The Nehor]

On top of this, do young men have an issue wearing short shorts or short skirts? Do men have an issue wearing shirts that show the tummy? Further more does men wearing a shirt that shoes the tummy have the same effect on a girl as it does a man if she were to were the shirt showing the tummy?

 

I refuse to be judged for my preference for kilts and lava-lavas.